mr salt Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 nice post mr logic cheers scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 "I remember a few years ago a bank in Windermere was robbed and assault weapons were fired inside the building...the armed response team were nowhere to be seen. They like easy pickings and legitimate shooters are easy results to justify using helicopters and the like because we do not shoot back." Of course, they go after easy targets like motorists and peopel who droplitter etc. I have heard that gangsters in Glasgow open carry handguns and police do ef all about them. I mean, it MIGHT be dangerous after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Al4x, I'm afraid that I do expect BASC and MP to do something about it. Both are paid by me to represent my views up the line. Fact of the matter is that nobody objects to the police turning up IF they are courteous and professional enough to accept that they may be wrong about stuff. Diplomatic approach unless someone is actually being threatening. Let's be honest here, if you've something to hide then your reaction will be instantly very different to that of a law abiding shooter. If the coppers can't work that out they need training. And like I said it is possible to act this way as I've had good and bad. The good are true professionals, and I'm glad they're in the uniform. The bad are often little more than smartly dressed yobs and their superiors need to fix this as they are alienating the whole shooting community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Of course, they go after easy targets like motorists and peopel who droplitter etc. I have heard that gangsters in Glasgow open carry handguns and police do ef all about them. I mean, it MIGHT be dangerous after all. take it you didnt hear about the terrorist check point over here a few weeks back when a police patrol drove away from 8 armed men carrying assault rifles and an rpg7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Cheeky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 got anything to back up this I've heard bit about gangsters in glasgow Kos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) An article about Glaswegian gangsters and gangs. http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish...86908-21409037/ Edited September 8, 2009 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Koz, as I have already said, and posted evidence that BASC are working with the police and others to educate. Yes I agree with Mungler than in principal context should tell the officers that the balance of probability is that the person they are looking at is not a threat, but is a pigeon shooter or fox shooter, or deer stalker etc And yes I agree that a degree of tact and diplomacy will go a long way to clam things down- on both sides. My point being though that in practice this opens up a can of worms- as I say I have a friend who is an armed response officer – his job simply is to go through a set procedure to ensure the ‘target’ presents no danger to him, his colleagues or anyone else, this is MY PERSONAL OPPINION, I am entitled to have a personal opinion on this forum am I not without BASC members jumping on me threatening to cancel their BASC membership? On formal BASC approach, our firearm team will local to hear from any member who had been poorly treated by the police, and they will take it up with the Constabulary concerned. I will also ask our Firearms team to put this matter to the ACC who is head of the ACPO firearm section. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) Cheeky. i wish unfortunately i was being serious this time koz - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8220888.stm might also note that the cops here usually carry assault rifles and/or submachine guns as routine, and they all have pistols Edited September 8, 2009 by babbyc1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 An article about Glaswegian gangsters and gangs.http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish...86908-21409037/ doesn't say the police are ignoring them and letting them open carry fireearms unless I'm missing something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 doesn't say the police are ignoring them and letting them open carry fireearms unless I'm missing something might want to read my post then al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 yours is a tad different accross the pond and I have to say after all the flack surrounding shootings over there I'm actually not surprised no one wanted to fire first Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 Wow babby that is intense! I never realised that there are still heavily armed paramilitaries in Northern Ireland. Is this the same situation in South Ireland? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted September 8, 2009 Report Share Posted September 8, 2009 (edited) yes and no; the south never had the same problems we did, alot of these guys are based in the south though al i understand what you mean, but it leaves you in a big quandry if something happens... Edited September 8, 2009 by babbyc1000 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatstand Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) You must obey all reasonable requests from a police officer armed or not. But officers lately don't seem to have any common sense. Especially whereas pigeon shooters on farmland are concerned. Their ranks in my experience seem to be getting filled with bully boys and girls, which is a real shame. Where was the common sense when all the firearms instructors at one police force thought it was alright to fire a 12 gauge at another officer? regardless of what ammo they were using. I find this staggering and quite simply criminal. I'm sure most if not all members on here understanding firearms and the criteria needed to obtain licenses for such, would not have come to such a bad decision under the same circumstances. Undertrained and badly advised seems to be the norm now so we better get used to fatties in black paramilitary police outfits abseiling out of helicopters into our pigeon hides shouting "red team go go go". Keeps them off the streets I suppose. http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/new...er_pc_shot_dead Edited September 9, 2009 by Hatstand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 You must obey all reasonable requests from a police officer armed or not.But officers lately don't seem to have any common sense. Especially whereas pigeon shooters on farmland are concerned. Their ranks in my experience seem to be getting filled with bully boys and girls, which is a real shame. Where was the common sense when all the firearms instructors at one police force thought it was alright to fire a 12 gauge at another officer? regardless of what ammo they were using. I find this staggering and quite simply criminal. I'm sure most if not all members on here understanding firearms and the criteria needed to obtain licenses for such, would not have come to such a bad decision under the same circumstances. Undertrained and badly advised seems to be the norm now so we better get used to fatties in black paramilitary police outfits abseiling out of helicopters into our pigeon hides shouting "red team go go go". Keeps them off the streets I suppose. http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/new...er_pc_shot_dead Where in statute law do I have a duty to comply with a 'request'? I'm not insinuating that I wouldn't comply, although the sight of a fat, Nomex-clad member of Red Troop, abseiling into my field whilst I'm sitting in my pigeon hide, would cause me to crease up with laughter. You would hope that with unemployment still creeping up, the Police recruitment policy could be tightened up significantly. It's not like there's a shortage of applicants for Police jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 the other thing to add is that it wasn't thought ok to fire a normal 12 gauge at each other they were firing a cs canister into the car from a 12 gauge and if you're going to potentially use them you have to practice somehow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr smith Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 - an ARV doesn't need to shout the odds, and they don't need to treat us like scum. The problem is in their training.They are trained for possible hostile firearm incidents,having seen the tactics they use on the telly a few months back they seem trained to charge in and take control of the situation,giving the suspects little thinking time in how to respond.This often looked heavy handed but in the right time and place spot on tactics. It's perhaps also they are a bit over motivated,bit like using the paras and the marines to do policing on the streets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 Failure to comply in general means a failure, refusal, or neglect to obey an official order. Failure to comply may be a criminal (punishable by incarceration if v. seriouse) or civil offense (punishable by fine), Depending on what you are fefusing to do / comply with will depend which law you could be breaknig I guess, refusal to give your name and address for example comes under the police reform Act i think - but I am no lawyer! D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 Failure to comply in general means a failure, refusal, or neglect to obey an official order. Failure to comply may be a criminal (punishable by incarceration if v. seriouse) or civil offense (punishable by fine), Depending on what you are fefusing to do / comply with will depend which law you could be breaknig I guess, refusal to give your name and address for example comes under the police reform Act i think - but I am no lawyer! D Assuming you are of good character, have done nothing wrong and are minding your own business. If a policeman told you to put your hand in the fire : (1) would you, (2) would you be committing an offence by failing to comply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 I'm guessing you already know the answer to this Mungler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Fudd Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 you know, i think were all being a bit daft here. WE all know were law abiding citizens carrying out a legal activity, but the cops dont. if they get a call saying theres armed men running about from some "concerned member of the public" (ie some ***hole with nothing better to do) then what are they supposed to do? ignore it and hope for the best? and what about the officers themselves? put yourself in their shoes for once. theyre sent into an area with reports of armed men running about, they dont know anything more than that. what would you do? go in heavy handed and minimise the risk to yourself, or go in softly softly and risk getting a bullet in you? going by the number of times ive read "id rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" on here i know what the answer should be (whether people are big enough to admit it or not is another). its all well and good saying the police are bully boys and lazy ******** (and im not disagreeing) but i think its about time some people woke up to the fact that until the police are convinced that you are no longer a threat and they check out that you are legal, you are nothing more than someone carrying a gun who may (or may not) be a danger to them. oh and if i was out shooting and heard police sirens and a helicopter approaching (because lets face it, they dont really creep up on you without hearing them unless youre ******* deaf or an idiot) id remove my camo jacket, unload my gun and either set it down or sling it over my shoulder. i would rather do that and spend 5 mins explaining to the police that im legal (or miss out on a few shots and feel like an idiot when the sirens and helicopter pass by) than get shot and to have some cop turn round and say "he didnt comply with our instructions and then he moved his hand funny so i shot him thinking he was gonna shoot me" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatstand Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 the other thing to add is that it wasn't thought ok to fire a normal 12 gauge at each other they were firing a cs canister into the car from a 12 gauge and if you're going to potentially use them you have to practice somehow. Why do you have to practice being shot at with a lethal cs gas round? I fail to see any reason at all. You have to practice shooting them, If your practicing getting shot you need to take a long hard look at yourself. Blank firing guns have killed people before. Do not fire firearms at people in training situations, end of, How stupid do you have to be to not see people will die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 Some context for Hatstand - LINK ZB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) the idea is its meant to be non lethal. The guy should have been using body armour and the round shouldn't have been fired at him but from memory it was fired from a moving car. So in training you'd like them not to use guns and just shout bang or something along those lines. To use firearms in real situations sadly they need to train in a fairly reallistic way, if you are going to use projectiles like this you don't want the first time you fire one to be in a real situation. edit:- pretty unfortunate markings on the round Zapp Edited September 9, 2009 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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