norfolk dumpling Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Wife, when she retired, was looking for a pet which she found in the local rag. Not looking for a supercharged working dog but a companion. However what she has ended up with is rather confusing. The puppies (2 left when we looked) were clean, healthy and quite bold. Wife chose the bitch and at £250 she was happy. Later, like 6 months later, a pedigree arrived which included FTCH's etc and looked more like the pedigree of a £500 pup. Pup now 18 months old behaves like a FTCH - very sharp, picks up good and bad habits very quickly, has excellent scenting and memory and as a pet cannot be faulted. HOWEVER we discovered, before KC letter arrived, the "breeder" was being prosecuted for fraud (got 18months and a heavy fine) but we have a dog which we know nothing of but which appears to have good breeding. Pup is lovely but so many questions - who were the parents? Were parent stolen? Should we (trying to get wife to train pup) work her? Should we breed with her (revised pedigree reflects unknown history) - wife doesn't want to but pup has a certain air about her that I feel we should not lose. Anyone had similar? Short of employing a detective or a medium is there anyway anyone know of getting to the bottom of this.? Is there a DNA database for dogs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Pity about the papers but if you have a good dog you have a good dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the pigeon man Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 You can only bread kc reg dogs so many times to get papers for the puppy's so more than likely they have bread the bitch to many times and had to sell good pups cheap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norfolk dumpling Posted August 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Just a though if anyone can help - the dodgy pedigree may have had stolen dogs (or breeder 'brands' ie Drakeshead) included. Is there a register of these that we may be able to x-check names against? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenboy Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 If you think the papers are fake would you not too be committing fraud if you bred her and sold the pups with that line ? Not a dig just a question I do think you are getting ahead of yourself , I would suggest that you need to be working her before you decide if she is suitable for breeding from , also consider if the papers are fake you have no idea of her health status , hips / eyes etc so she would need a full check up first which is not cheap . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norfolk dumpling Posted August 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 The KC papers have a cautionary note - forget wording but it reflects situation. Would have to do hip/eyes etc but my natural curiosity needs satisfying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Wife, when she retired, was looking for a pet which she found in the local rag. Not looking for a supercharged working dog but a companion. However what she has ended up with is rather confusing. The puppies (2 left when we looked) were clean, healthy and quite bold. Wife chose the bitch and at £250 she was happy. Later, like 6 months later, a pedigree arrived which included FTCH's etc and looked more like the pedigree of a £500 pup. Pup now 18 months old behaves like a FTCH - very sharp, picks up good and bad habits very quickly, has excellent scenting and memory and as a pet cannot be faulted. HOWEVER we discovered, before KC letter arrived, the "breeder" was being prosecuted for fraud (got 18months and a heavy fine) but we have a dog which we know nothing of but which appears to have good breeding. Pup is lovely but so many questions - who were the parents? Were parent stolen? Should we (trying to get wife to train pup) work her? Should we breed with her (revised pedigree reflects unknown history) - wife doesn't want to but pup has a certain air about her that I feel we should not lose. Anyone had similar? Short of employing a detective or a medium is there anyway anyone know of getting to the bottom of this.? Is there a DNA database for dogs? What I find staggering is, you wanted a docile pet yet you are elated with your dog even though it's all the above underlined? Why, if that was what you'd be happy with, did you not seek one out to begin with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norfolk dumpling Posted August 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Try re-reading my post all I was asking was if there was a way of finding out the truth about what it is my wife has bought. Dog lovely, wife happy it's the mystery I'm trying to solve. Then knowing more about her maybe we should do more with her. Please no more lectures only helpful suggestions. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker boy Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Should we work her?. Were her parents stolen?. What have these questions got to do with the breeder getting done for fraud?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les*1066 Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 If you're happy with the dog, then just enjoy it for what it is. It sounds like an excellent pet, which is what you wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norfolk dumpling Posted August 9, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 The 'breeder' apparently made £80k out of this extensive scam. All I'm speculating about is the truth about the origins of the lovely lab currently laying on my feet (mums away for w/e) ie does anyone know of anyway of finding out her origins? I sort of hoped someone might have a few bright ideas or had been here before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotslad Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 (edited) The KC itself is a big fruad but that's a different story. Was the breeder done with fruad relating to the dogs or something completely unrelated? Like others have said just enjoy ur dog the now and try and get her to as high a standard as possible/or u need. If u get the dog to a standad off course u should work her, no reason not too. Althou reeding may be a different story, but no need to worry yet. Is ur bitch actually KC registered? Or is it just a piece of paper with the pedigree on? If ur bitch is KC registered u can sign on to KC online and it will list a 3 gen pedigree, otherwise i would search the kennel name of the sire or contsct him. If dog was stolen, would not be able to register it with KC, unless its under a different bitches name, but all gets a bit complicated and not worth the hassle for a 250 pup, i'm sure everything is legit Draksehead lines as well as a few others big name studs are fairly common in most half decent bred working labs, infact hard to find a lab that HASN'T got Drakeshead indiana or Pocklea Remus in the 5 gen pedigree, and indiana is still busy sireing away Even proper KC does not really mean that much, if ur taking ur bitch to a stud dog do u really know that is the right dog? Esp with labs that look similar in some cases Edited August 9, 2014 by scotslad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loriusgarrulus Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 It could be that the bitch was bred twice in one year. Only one litter a year can be registered with KC, but an unscrupulus breeder can get round that in numerous ways. Your dog could have impeccable breeding, but be from a 2nd litter. One scam is to register a phantom (non existant) bitch puppy from a litter which the breeder suposably keeps and register a 2nd litter from another bitch to the phantom without the cost of keeping two bitches. Some breeders let a bitch have a 2nd litter or a litter over KC breeding age and not register them, hence the £250 price instead of the £500-£600 you would normally pay for a KC registered . Does she have a kennel club registration certificate or kennel club pedigree or just a multigeneration paper pedigree. It could also be a genuine mistake 2nd litter. Our mini pinscher was only £250 with paper pedigree, but no KC. It was made clear to us prior to purchase that he couldn't be KC registered. The breeder had new kennels and runs made with bars instead of wire and her stud dog had gone off his food and got slim enough to get through the bars and mate another pinscher bitch in season who had already had a registered litter that year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted August 9, 2014 Report Share Posted August 9, 2014 Contact the breeder and ask them. Tell them your just curious and not looking to cause them any trouble. If they have been done for it anyway they can't be done again so may tell you what you want to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norfolk dumpling Posted August 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 The breeder is in prison. The first pedigree was a fraud as far as we know. KC have issued what I suppose you would say is a one generation pedigree ie if we chose to breed (unlikely) there will be no history. I am curious to find out some if not all of pups history. Wondered if anyone had seen similar - you regularly see cheap 'pedigree' dogs in local advertising and I'm sure we are not the first to have this puzzle - if you believe the court finding this lady (criminal) must have sold thousands of pups in our area. I understand many of them were poorly, a few did not survive but the one we have seems to have good parentage. Some of the little tricks I've noticed - don't forget wife has only trained standard obedience - are: when wife baking pup will check out food opportunities standing briefly on hind legs looking for items near edge of work surface - she only pinches items if she can get away w/o any noise; we were gathering strawberries from our large fruit garden where pup has watched but never pinched fruit, however wife chucked away a damaged one which pup spotted, grabbed and then almost in the same movement pinch a large fruit (a bit of retraining has worked but take your eye off her and she edges towards fruit); on the beach she walked up to a small terrier but even before snarling started she jumped just far enough to avoid teeth (have noticed this perception of danger from her on three occasions now - telepathy?). Game finding excellent and she nearly grabbed a doe muntjac a couple of days ago - our two terriers didn't wind it, she did! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loriusgarrulus Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Another scam is to sell some of your own pups alongside some imported from puppy farms. The poorly and not surviving ones would probably be the puppy farm ones as they often have problems due to poor breeding practices and bad conditions. Yours luckily is probably one of her own breeding. The Kennel Club might be able to help with checking her history as they keep records of all breeding and pedigrees, but they can only supply the data they have been supplied with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loriusgarrulus Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/registration/how-to-register-your-dog/breed-register-(pedigree)/ Try registering your dog on the MyKC on the bottom of this KC page. Not sure if this will help, but it might have some details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 (edited) The 'breeder' apparently made £80k out of this extensive scam. All I'm speculating about is the truth about the origins of the lovely lab currently laying on my feet (mums away for w/e) ie does anyone know of anyway of finding out her origins? I sort of hoped someone might have a few bright ideas or had been here before. It's a long shot but take her to a vet and ask for the dog to be scanned for any sign of a microchip. If there is a chip the dogs name and address will be linked to it on the chip company data base. If the dog is KC reg, it's KC reg name will also be on the database. It's worth a go but not likely to be chipped. Failing that...it's the medium. Edited August 10, 2014 by Bazooka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 The breeder is in prison. The first pedigree was a fraud as far as we know. KC have issued what I suppose you would say is a one generation pedigree ie if we chose to breed (unlikely) there will be no history. I am curious to find out some if not all of pups history. Wondered if anyone had seen similar - you regularly see cheap 'pedigree' dogs in local advertising and I'm sure we are not the first to have this puzzle - if you believe the court finding this lady (criminal) must have sold thousands of pups in our area. I understand many of them were poorly, a few did not survive but the one we have seems to have good parentage. Some of the little tricks I've noticed - don't forget wife has only trained standard obedience - are: when wife baking pup will check out food opportunities standing briefly on hind legs looking for items near edge of work surface - she only pinches items if she can get away w/o any noise; we were gathering strawberries from our large fruit garden where pup has watched but never pinched fruit, however wife chucked away a damaged one which pup spotted, grabbed and then almost in the same movement pinch a large fruit (a bit of retraining has worked but take your eye off her and she edges towards fruit); on the beach she walked up to a small terrier but even before snarling started she jumped just far enough to avoid teeth (have noticed this perception of danger from her on three occasions now - telepathy?). Game finding excellent and she nearly grabbed a doe muntjac a couple of days ago - our two terriers didn't wind it, she did! Definitely FTCh behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 1. Should we (trying to get wife to train pup) work her? 2. Should we breed with her (revised pedigree reflects unknown history) - wife doesn't want to but 3. pup has a certain air about her that I feel we should not lose. 1. If you have work for her then why not, it will stimulate the dog and give it some purpose. 2. No - far too many ifs, buts and maybes about the breeding and that's before you've even thought about health testing, whilst I am not overly excited about testing there are minimal tests I would look for in a lab. 3. So will plenty others if you do your research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norfolk dumpling Posted August 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Thanks for some helpful and constructive comments - this started off with the opposite with a couple of knee-jerk reactions from some who seem to have reading problems! Perhaps I've watched too much CSI etc but I was hoping a breeder (who had dogs stolen?) or another inquisitive owner might have done some detective work we could latch on to. Am trying to get wife to train pup (wife has trained a couple of dogs in the past quite successfully which she reminds me of from time to time!) but our disabled son has become a medical disaster recently so this may be for the future. In looks she has the same appearance as the picture on the front page of July Shooting Gazette so would like to see her in the shooting field with or without credentials. What has happened here is of course not unique to the dog world as my wife gave up breeding pedigree mousetraps several years ago (thank god if only for my credibility!) as she discovered a so called friend and fellow breeder doing same. Wife had been breeding/showing for some years and got quite a reputation for a particular new colour and collected a lot of silverware. 'Friend' asked if she could borrow wife's stud cat - cock and bull story dam nervous couldn't travel (4 miles!!) so wife took stud to dam to be told collect at once a stud didn't perform, was aggressive etc etc. Yes you guessed it kittens for sale a few months later with a most remarkable resemblance to wife's stud. There were other concerns expressed by others so wife just stopped her hobby disgusted by this and other rumours affecting cat world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norfolk dumpling Posted August 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Thanks for some helpful and constructive comments - this started off with the opposite with a couple of knee-jerk reactions from some who seem to have reading problems! Perhaps I've watched too much CSI etc but I was hoping a breeder (who had dogs stolen?) or another inquisitive owner might have done some detective work we could latch on to. Am trying to get wife to train pup (wife has trained a couple of dogs in the past quite successfully which she reminds me of from time to time!) but our disabled son has become a medical disaster recently so this may be for the future. In looks she has the same appearance as the picture on the front page of July Shooting Gazette so would like to see her in the shooting field with or without credentials. What has happened here is of course not unique to the dog world as my wife gave up breeding pedigree mousetraps several years ago (thank god if only for my credibility!) as she discovered a so called friend and fellow breeder doing same. Wife had been breeding/showing for some years and got quite a reputation for a particular new colour and collected a lot of silverware. 'Friend' asked if she could borrow wife's stud cat - cock and bull story dam nervous couldn't travel (4 miles!!) so wife took stud to dam to be told collect at once a stud didn't perform, was aggressive etc etc. Yes you guessed it kittens for sale a few months later with a most remarkable resemblance to wife's stud. There were other concerns expressed by others so wife just stopped her hobby disgusted by this and other rumours affecting cat world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 Even Lab stock from the rehoming centres and show lines aint dumb. Could you work it? most likely if someone trained it! Should you breed it? Nope, enough about lab litters about already and for all you know you could be breeding it to its sibling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.w. Posted August 10, 2014 Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 If you're happy with the dog, then just enjoy it for what it is. It sounds like an excellent pet, which is what you wanted. I agree, look no further and enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norfolk dumpling Posted August 10, 2014 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2014 As I said unlikely would even think about breeding. Just trying to find out a bit more about our pup. If anyone may have similar concerns EDP website has an article and photos of the old bag responsible. She didn't look quite so bad when we picked up pup although the jodhpurs on her fat **** was not a good look!! She just came over as a busy mum with kids, stables and a couple of nice pups but then it appears there may several hundred owners with same concerns. Anyway that's it from me - have exhausted topic. Goodnight and goodby as they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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