Clay Shooting Coaches

[Chard]

I've heard both these arguments, and before yesterday, never really had an opinion on it either way. Some say that being a good clay coach is all about being a good teacher, having the ability to put information across to the pupil in clear and understandable ways, and it doesn't matter if the coach isn't a great shot. Others say that you can't be a good clay coach if you're not a top shot, otherwise how can you advise on particular problems, bogey birds etc.

 

A few weeks ago, Beretta gave me a critical going over at Catton Hall It wasn't a lesson, he was just watching me shoot a few targets and pointing out sloppy practices and bad habits. We didn't really discuss the technical rights and wrongs of how to shoot particular birds, because he acknowledged that I was too set in my ways to change style and there is more than one way to shoot a particular bird.

 

He got me standing right, I tended to give no thought to where I planted my feet in relation to the birds. That was easy. He also told me off for my inability or unwillingness to really look at the birds. I would acknowledge that it was a L-R crosser, low, fast - yeah yeah, let's go. He told me I needed to look exactly where it was coming from and going to and remember it. He also mentioned that when I had the opportunity to "see a pair", I wasn't making the most of it - same thing, L-R crosser, low, fast - pull!!!

 

I sort of took this on board but didn't think the significance of it through properly (because I'm slightly arrogant ). All I did was try to watch the birds a bit more carefully, especially where they're coming from.

 

In the competition yesterday, I shot OK, but messed up two stands badly and inexplicably (they weren't that hard). It later dawned on me that these were the only two stands out of 15 where I had to go first (we were a group of 6 shooters rotating)

 

I'm not making the most of "seeing a pair". Beretta told me that, and I chose to only give that advice cursory consideration. . I don't think many clay coaches see stuff like that. I reckon you need to have been round the block a few times before you recognise habits like mine and before you can "allow" less experienced shooters to shoot birds their way, rather than forcing your style onto them.

 

There you go, can't recommend the bloke enough. Word of warning though. I can see that when you have a lesson, you have a responsibility to yourself to listen hard and not just file the advice away like I did.

 

When most shooters have a lesson, they seem to want to be told technical stuff like how much lead to give, when to take this bird or that bird. I believe that stuff has to come with trial and error. The stuff you really need is to be told your bad habits by somebody that can see them, and they can be seemingly insignificant and minor things. I don't know how they see this stuff - how did he know what I was seeing when I call for a pair?

[Nicky T]

I don't think that there is any substitute for experience; after all it's a lot easier to take advice from someone who's been there and done it themselves and in most cases is still doing it

 

One of the biggest stumbling blocks that i have is when it comes to instant realisation of what i've done wrong when i miss. It's all too easy to think "I should have done this or that" in the car on the way home, when in reality you need to be putting it right whilst you're still in the stand

 

Fair play to you for realising where you can improve though!

[Chard]

One of the biggest stumbling blocks that i have is when it comes to instant realisation of what i've done wrong when i miss. It's all too easy to think "I should have done this or that" in the car on the way home, when in reality you need to be putting it right whilst you're still in the stand

 

I do that as well, though I usually have that thought as soon as I step out of the stand

 

It almost seems as though, when I'm actually in the stand, I am unable to think clearly at all and it all comes to me in a flash as soon as I've finished. I just need to be doing all the thinking before I get in the stand, as it seems that it won't come to me once I'm in it

[poontang]

I don't think that there is any substitute for experience; after all it's a lot easier to take advice from someone who's been there and done it themselves and in most cases is still doing it

 

I don't necessarily agree with that.

 

Most top coaches in sport are/were average competitors themselves, but know what it takes to suceed and how to put across their methods.

 

Alex Ferguson, very average player, but undoubtedly one of the best coaches in the game.

Alan Shearer, good player, very average manager.

Cus D'Amato, trained Mike Tyson in his early years, but how many world titles did he win?

DeWayne Barrett trains Usain Bolt, again, Barrett himself is a very average performer.

The list is endless.

 

It's only easier to take advice from someone who hasn't 'done it themselves' if you can't take advice at all.

 

I think most people know how to position there feet, hold points, reading the clay etc. but after a while we become complacent and forget. Any coach of even limited ability can see this, because he's looking for it. He's not concentrating on whether you kill the bird, more looking for the reason why you don't. Half the reason we miss is because we are often shooting with mates, having a bit of a laugh, we get into the cage having seen a few birds and off we go without really THINKING about what we're doing. We forget the basics. We feel pressured into shooting rather than taking our time and focusing on what we're doing. I think the switch from shooting for fun to shooting serious competition is a real eye opener. I used to shoot straights at skeet for fun but when i started shooting comps my scores dropped dramatically. Why? Because i was out of my comfort zone, i felt like everyone was watching me and i just wanted to shoot and get away. The reason i dropped birds was quite simply that in my rush to get off the stand i forgot the basics.

 

I'm sure if i'd taken my time, got myself prepared properly and focused i could have done a lot better, but i honestly don't think it would have mattered who was coaching me at the time as even the greenest coach could have seen the mistakes i was making. Shame i couldn't!!

[BlaserF3]

I would rate Stephen Nutbeam as a superb coach and an excellent shot.

 

He taught Richard Faulds amongst others.

[Anni]

I have to say my lesson with beretta has improved my shooting greatly, my scores are starting to rise slowly but surely. I new it was never going to be a miracle lesson that by the end of it i was british open winning material, theres only so much he can do the rest is upto me.

But putting what I learned into practice is starting to pay off, I'm still making silly mistakes not concentrating or as beretta told me not talking to myself in the stand, I do try and watch the clays flight, distance, what twig it flys behind the best kill point,where im going to position myself and repeating that over and over till i have straightned the stand, Being robotic and boring allmost, but that takes practice too.

 

At the comp with chard yesterday, the only reason I missed the odd clay was by not doing what B had told me, losing concentration, But by the end of the day I was sort of pleased with my result as I know the more I use what I learnt that day at catton the more my scores are going to improve

 

I rekon I could have been upto or even in the 90's yesterday Next time

 

A good teacher can teach the fundamentals to a beginner, theres plenty of them about. I dont believe he can take you to the next level if he hasnt been there himself.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Anni

[Chard]

I think most people know how to position there feet, hold points, reading the clay etc. but after a while we become complacent and forget. Any coach of even limited ability can see this, because he's looking for it. He's not concentrating on whether you kill the bird, more looking for the reason why you don't.

 

I know where you're coming from and, as I mentioned in the original post, I acknowledge that the feet thing was the easy bit. However, as I wander round clay grounds and see many coaches and their victims, I am amazed at how many bad practices with stance and mount I see going unchecked, so I don't think it's as simple as that. It appears to me that there a hell of a lot of people coaching that probably shouldn't be.

 

I particularly don't like the practice of coaches pressing their shooting style onto all pupils. I think this is a common problem and it goes right up through the ranks to some of the most highly-respected coaches. It almost seems that some of them will be trying to change your shooting style, irrespective of whether the pupil is hitting that particular clay or not. I'm not even particularly comfortable with the teaching style of John Bidwells Shotgun Magic DVD. It seems to me like a grossly over-simplified piece of tuition. I think there are a few statements in that DVD which are quite questionable, though I can't always put my finger on what it is that doesn't sit right with me. It's one of those cases where, if you make a statement with confidence and authority, people will just accept what you say, even if it's nonsence (I do it all the time )

[Nicky T]

I don't necessarily agree with that.

 

Most top coaches in sport are/were average competitors themselves, but know what it takes to suceed and how to put across their methods.

 

Alex Ferguson, very average player, but undoubtedly one of the best coaches in the game.

Alan Shearer, good player, very average manager.

Cus D'Amato, trained Mike Tyson in his early years, but how many world titles did he win?

DeWayne Barrett trains Usain Bolt, again, Barrett himself is a very average performer.

The list is endless.

 

It's only easier to take advice from someone who hasn't 'done it themselves' if you can't take advice at all.

 

Whilst i agree that some average competitors have indeed transformed themselves into excellent coaches i think that like of Man Utd, Tyson and Bolt are way above average when it comes to natural ability and aptitude towards their chosen sports, so in that repect i think that Fergy, D'Amato and Barrett had a considerable amount of talent to work with

 

Not sure about the taking advice comment though

[Reefcat]

Well I've just come back from a 100 bird sporting, where I shot 60, about normal for me. I killed every bird on each stand at least once, so I know they can be hit. Problem is that I sometimes kill the first pair, then miss several of the remainder, on other stands it takes a few pairs before I "find" them and straight the rest. Biggest problem is consistency, which I'm fairly sure is a mental thing. I would love to spend half a day with a coach, doing an analysis of my technique, reading difficult birds, mental approach etc. So far still looking for someone to do that, most of the coaches around here, seem to wander around with you for an hour, telling you you're behind or above etc. Then it's time's up that'll be £75.00 please - ouch

 

Most of the coaches I've come across would be great for novices, stance, mount, safety etc But I've yet to find anyone who can take it to the next stage. I'm sure there are many shooters like me, no pretensions to greathood, but would like to shoot better, and are prepared to put some time and money into it.

 

Any recommendations in the surrey/hants area, please let me know..

[Chard]

Not sure about the taking advice comment though

 

I think he means :

 

"It's only easier to take advice from someone who has 'done it themselves' if you can't take advice at all."

 

or :

 

It's only harder to take advice from someone who hasn't 'done it themselves' if you can't take advice at all.

 

But I don't agree. There are too many people around trying to give you advice when they don't know their harris from their helbow

[tosspot]

Ok, so let's have this straight,

 

you are saying you CAN polish a ****.

 

:lol:

[beretta]

blaser F3, totally agree with you on steve nutbeam, also andrew harvison.

unlike a lot of coaches the 'HAVE' been to the top of the tree.

 

i know coaches who have been shooting for less than a couple of years and gone on the relevant coaching day, passsed, and set up as coaches the following day.ok for taking someone who has never shot before into the field and giving them the basics, but they do not posess the knowledge to take them much further.

 

a common problem i see is that people have a lesson then leave it at that, whereas they should really follow it up with more, as most will revert back to there own way of thinking within a couple of weeks.

i think you will find richard faulds spent quite a few years with steve on coachng sesssions which paid off for him, but he could afford it

i could go on for hours but ill bore the pants off you all.

 

if you miss a target that you think you should have hit, DONT shoot in the same spot again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

COS IT AINT THERE

[Chard]

Ok, so let's have this straight,

 

you are saying you CAN polish a ****.

 

 

 

Oh yes, I can get a good shine on it

[SteveH]

I get constant coaching advice from my 12 year old daughter! She came to watch when I had some lessons a few months back, absorbed what the coach said and now delights in pointing out my faults. Thing is, she's usually right!

[libs]

I think theres a certain confidence boost when your instructor takes you gun and whilst explaining what you are doing wrong, smokes a pair you have been unable to hit with a gun that doesn't come close to fitting him that just doesn't come from anything else he can say or do!

[Yellow Bear]

I've heard both these arguments, and before yesterday, never really had an opinion on it either way. Some say that being a good clay coach is all about being a good teacher, having the ability to put information across to the pupil in clear and understandable ways, and it doesn't matter if the coach isn't a great shot. Others say that you can't be a good clay coach if you're not a top shot, otherwise how can you advise on particular problems, bogey birds etc.

 

A few weeks ago, Beretta gave me a critical going over at Catton Hall It wasn't a lesson, he was just watching me shoot a few targets and pointing out sloppy practices and bad habits. We didn't really discuss the technical rights and wrongs of how to shoot particular birds, because he acknowledged that I was too set in my ways to change style and there is more than one way to shoot a particular bird.

 

He got me standing right, I tended to give no thought to where I planted my feet in relation to the birds. That was easy. He also told me off for my inability or unwillingness to really look at the birds. I would acknowledge that it was a L-R crosser, low, fast - yeah yeah, let's go. He told me I needed to look exactly where it was coming from and going to and remember it. He also mentioned that when I had the opportunity to "see a pair", I wasn't making the most of it - same thing, L-R crosser, low, fast - pull!!!

 

I sort of took this on board but didn't think the significance of it through properly (because I'm slightly arrogant ). All I did was try to watch the birds a bit more carefully, especially where they're coming from.

 

In the competition yesterday, I shot OK, but messed up two stands badly and inexplicably (they weren't that hard). It later dawned on me that these were the only two stands out of 15 where I had to go first (we were a group of 6 shooters rotating)

 

I'm not making the most of "seeing a pair". Beretta told me that, and I chose to only give that advice cursory consideration. :( . I don't think many clay coaches see stuff like that. I reckon you need to have been round the block a few times before you recognise habits like mine and before you can "allow" less experienced shooters to shoot birds their way, rather than forcing your style onto them.

 

There you go, can't recommend the bloke enough. Word of warning though. I can see that when you have a lesson, you have a responsibility to yourself to listen hard and not just file the advice away like I did.

 

When most shooters have a lesson, they seem to want to be told technical stuff like how much lead to give, when to take this bird or that bird. I believe that stuff has to come with trial and error. The stuff you really need is to be told your bad habits by somebody that can see them, and they can be seemingly insignificant and minor things. I don't know how they see this stuff - how did he know what I was seeing when I call for a pair?

 

 

I have to say my lesson with beretta has improved my shooting greatly, my scores are starting to rise slowly but surely. I new it was never going to be a miracle lesson that by the end of it i was british open winning material, theres only so much he can do the rest is upto me.

But putting what I learned into practice is starting to pay off, I'm still making silly mistakes not concentrating or as beretta told me not talking to myself in the stand, I do try and watch the clays flight, distance, what twig it flys behind the best kill point,where im going to position myself and repeating that over and over till i have straightned the stand, Being robotic and boring allmost, but that takes practice too.

 

At the comp with chard yesterday, the only reason I missed the odd clay was by not doing what B had told me, losing concentration, But by the end of the day I was sort of pleased with my result as I know the more I use what I learnt that day at catton the more my scores are going to improve

 

I rekon I could have been upto or even in the 90's yesterday Next time :(

 

A good teacher can teach the fundamentals to a beginner, theres plenty of them about. I dont believe he can take you to the next level if he hasnt been there himself.

 

 

all the way!!

[COACH]

I`m lucky enough to be classed as an AA shot and a very successful A.P.S.I qualified instructor all through sheer determination and practice.

However I know a lot of the countries top shots and most will tell you that they may be able to shoot but can`t teach for the life of them. It`s a totally different thing.

If they can teach, use them, don`t worry about whether they can shoot too much.

Go for someone that several people have recommended.

Edited November 3, 2009 by COACH

[utectok]

sounds like a good lesson I have had two lessons with qualified instructors and been dissapointed with both. To sum up the both said you shoot fine just practise and took £50 of me. Had some great fly casting lessons in the past so was hoping for more sounds like " beretta" is the man!

[beretta]

there are good coaches and bad, the same in any sport. from a personal point (no dissrespect to you coach) some 'CPSA, BASC AND APSI' coaches can only teach the very basics, no matter which level coach they are in 'theory'. they go on the course, pay the money and get the badge. AND I SAY SOME!!

2 of the best coaches around at the moment in this country are ANDREW HARVISON and STEVE NUTBEAM (both APSI, i think) you could not get better in my opinion. they can teach you different ways to shoot the same target and make the shot easier by having done this themselves over many years at the highest level. its easy to say 'just move through the bird'. try that on a 60yrd 80mph looping battue??? experience counts.

my 2p worth. :blink:

[utectok]

cheers beretta I'll look those guys up for my next lesson!

[beretta]

they are a long way fom you mate

[Emmsy]

Nutbeam

[BlaserF3]

The last time I saw Steve Nutbeam was at Westlands shooting ground, which is not so far away from utectok.

[utectok]

shot a slab a westlands the other day!

[FlorianO]

Sorry for the late post in this thread but another name that was mentioned in the past in similar threads is CARL BLOXHAM.

 

I haven't (yet) had a lesson with Carl, but from what I gather he has the creds as both a shooter and coach (two completely different things).

Edited November 15, 2009 by FlorianO