Show some compassion

[Dr D]

I shot 14 pigeons today in NI, where the wildfowling ban is now in force. all the birds where in good condition.

[hendersons]

just been out and fed the birds in the garden sat in my chair having a quick look out of the window and there they are 2 pigeons bang at it you would have thought they would try and save their energy

nick

[pyr8]

don,t forget to give your garden birds a drink.

[al4x]

and if you've got game birds down as well these need water as well!

[Sinistercr0c]

Article on the BBC news website on the suject of how this weather is affecting the UK's birds...

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8449089.stm

[Ozzy Fudd]

just to say i was talking to a friend earlier who works in the forestry, seems things are getting very bad. he was working in a local forest park today and saw a starling fall dead from a tree, also theyve had to start taking the ducks/poultry in the park into sheds at night, he even had to carry one of the geese in, it was near frozen

[Troosers Too]

This has been a really interesting thread & it rather makes me glad I don't do much pigeon shooting as I really don't know what is the right thing to do.

 

Argument 1: As someone said pigeons are, like rats, vermin and need to be controlled. Therefore, shooting should continue throughout the year & under any legal conditions to control their numbers to protect crops. You don't hear of many people who refuse to shoot rats that might have young in the nest.

 

Argument 2: Pigeons, in many areas, are suffering badly because of the cold. It would be cruel & unecessary to continue to persecute them. Numbers will be hit anyway. Of course the counter to this would be that being shot DEAD would be kinder than starving/freezing to death.

 

Some people will continue to shoot them & some will stop. It is up to each of us to make up his own mind. Bear in mind that we all get peed off when "townies" with no understanding of the countryside want to tell us what to do, while many of us are shooters with jobs far removed from agriculture - we need to be careful that we're not doing the same as them.

 

Perhaps the answer would be to reclassify pigeons as game & remove the ridiculous hypocrisy of the current situation where, very often, the crop protection argument would be very thin indeed.

 

I'm off to hide under the desk with my tin helmet on as I'm sure many of you will hate the idea. Bear in mind it is only a suggestion and the current licensing system is a real bodge designed to pacify some beurocrats rather than a proper, practical system.

 

Hiding now

TT

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

My other view is some are claiming the pigeons are causing massive damage to rape pokeing though the snow.

Have a little think for a moment if the tops are pokeing though then only the tops will get eated not the snow incrusted rape.

So not a huge amount of damage will happen to crop at this stage.

This is rape only not the kale fodder that rjimmer says in his post.

Regards OTH

Edited January 9, 2010 by Over the hill

[rjimmer]

The kale/fodder crop they might be eating will mean farm animals have less to eat.

The number of pigeons that are shot will have died anyway, but that does not save the crop they are eating in a vain attempt to survive.

If a crop needs protection and shooting is the only way it can be done, then carry on shooting them.

 

Having now read OTH's post.

It is my understanding that no amount of green crop, be it kale, rape, Brussel Sprouts, turnip tops etc., will sustain pigeons in hard winter weather, they are just putting off starvation a little longer.

Rape has been said to be behind the increase in pigeon numbers. Perhaps this is because it has a higher food value than the others, perhaps not. I suspect not! Before the increase in rape acreage, there were probably only winter cereals growing in the same fields, if they were not left un-sown ready for a spring crop. New varieties of winter crops in general has meant that more acres have something growing in them in winter. Chemicals have also has in influence in controlling weeds and pests. It is no longer necessary to give land a rest over winter, like it once was. Therefore, pigeons now have a better chance of slowing their gradual starvation in arable areas.

It is also my understanding that rape, in a normal winter, does not need protection from pigeons until February, but this isn't a normal winter.

A few of us can remember Jan-feb-March 1963. Kale fields, in cattle areas, were stripped bare by pigeons with no hope of recovery in time to be of any use to the cattle. Rape is not harvested until summer!

 

If a crop needs protection NOW, and shooting is the only way it can be done, then carry on shooting them.

Edited January 9, 2010 by rjimmer

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

I think the increase in bird numbers come from rape and mild winters with year round breeding becoming possable.

I think the truth in 6 months time we could well be talking like the warreners after mxy was introducted into uk .

The modern pigeon that has become so reliant on rape has not see winter of this natural.

In my early days before mass rape growing in my teens pigeons use to feed on winter barley .

Yes they will make it though but numbers will reduce and the hay days of 100 bags will be gone.

Thats not a bad thing and all that have profited from this great bird will struggle even are site sponser might find it hard to have enough birds for well paying clients.

So each of us needs to think what there actions in the next month or to two might and I stress might have on bird number in the future.

Regards OTH

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

Bear in mind that we all get peed off when "townies" with no understanding of the countryside want to tell us what to do, while many of us are shooters with jobs far removed from agriculture - we need to be careful that we're not doing the same as them.

 

I can say I am not in that catergory of posters on this forum.

All the best OTH

[rjimmer]

I think the increase in bird numbers come from rape and mild winters with year round breeding becoming possible.

Year-round breeding has always been possible. My first bird book from c1959 mentions young pigeons being found in nests in every month of the year.

I think the truth in 6 months time we could well be talking like the warreners after mxy was introduced into uk.

Rabbits recovered from a wipe out that is nowhere near as likely with pigeons. Pigeons have always died in large number in winter.

The modern pigeon that has become so reliant on rape has not see winter of this natural.

Only in some areas.

In my early days before mass rape growing in my teens pigeons use to feed on winter barley .

Yes they will make it though but numbers will reduce and the hay days of 100 bags will be gone.

So you don't think you will ever break your record of 561 in a day? Too bad!

Thats not a bad thing and all that have profited from this great bird will struggle even our site sponser might find it hard to have enough birds for well paying clients.

Too Bad

So each of us needs to think what there actions in the next month or to two might and I stress might have on bird number in the future.

If there is a crop that needs protection, then carry on shooting them. When a small farmer gives up, it is likely that a large management company will get involved and your shooting will be lost to an 'agent'.

 

Regards OTH

 

If country people will not shoot pigeons for a farmer, I'm sure there will be plenty of 'townees' who will be willing to do it for him.

Edited January 9, 2010 by rjimmer

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

rjimmer

I dont confess to know it all but I add my views for all to see I am youngish and if you reread my my profile I have added my full employment history for all to see.

As hopefully this will let some get to know a little about myself I have shot large bags yes 561 in my younger days.

But now it is a bit more about understanding rather charging out and trying max even day out.

Large bags in any country sport is something I think is strived for by the young and as you get a little older you views change.

Control is the name of the game for me and shooting thin birds is not for and most farmers understand this I have had two farmer who have asked my NOT to shoot the pigeons because they think it not fair.

It all down to personnel choice the choice is yours I am not trying push others to giveup.

I have found the thread refreshing and have got me thinking if my views are correct.

But I still will not be shooting them to they can get to crops to cause damage and get into better condition.

Thanks for your thought provoking reply OTH

Edited January 9, 2010 by Over the hill

[Catamong]

If country people will not shoot pigeons for a farmer, I'm sure there will be plenty of 'townees' who will be willing to do it for him.

 

I'm not too sure about that, in my area a lot of the muppets won't shoot over rape because they basically don't know how and can't be bothered to learn, also at this time of year it's far too cold for them.

 

It's a different story once the farmer drills a few peas in April, they're out every day, I get a blank look when I ask "where have you been all Winter?".

 

Cat.

[mossy835]

theres summer shooters, and winter shooters

[Dr D]

spoke to farmer today who reckons he has lost 4K of plants to pigeons. going to check the field tomorrow morning.

[proTOM1]

spoke to farmer today who reckons he has lost 4K of plants to pigeons. going to check the field tomorrow morning.

 

 

sounds familiar just got off the phone to a mate who went to look at a 29 acre field of rape today that has near but gone as the snow was light in that area he shot it and bagged 126 in only 3 hours all very good wieght , but the field is in a bad condition

[benelli montefeltro]

keep fighting the good fight drd. you will be victorious

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

spoke to farmer today who reckons he has lost 4K of plants to pigeons. going to check the field tomorrow morning.

How did the farmer know he lost 4k ? rape is roughly £250 per tonne that means he lost approx 6 acres to pigeons or approx 16 tonnes of crops at harvest.

Most losses on crops is down to poor crop rotation other pests and diseases .

I have never seen a field of rape lost to pigeon damage and have had one field yield better with sheep grazing t when it became to advanced eg proven with sat technolgy given a yield map of the field where I had strpped grazed it and a clear increase in the grazed section .

Now crop damage of peas and flattered barley wheat etc can be massive one field of peas it would have been better off using a hoover than a combine.

[M ROBSON]

I have never seen a field of rape lost to pigeon damage

 

Then I would say you either come from an area with few pigeons or you haven't been on the scene for as long as your name suggests?

 

I have seen several that needed re-drilling in the spring due to pigeon damage.

 

Mark.

[Alanl50]

Im out tomorrow 2 big flocks hitting the rape I had a look today, Im going to make straw hide in the middle, I cant wait

Alan

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

Then I would say you either come from an area with few pigeons or you haven't been on the scene for as long as your name suggests?

 

I have seen several that needed re-drilling in the spring due to pigeon damage.

 

Mark.

Mark most fields need redrilling due to rain wash and farmer blame pests .

Area with few pigeons most of my perms run along side the beasleys and there clients and myself shot alot of birds .

I have seen crops grazed hard yes but not wiped out because of pigeon damage alot of crop lost in floods and redrilled .

Which to untrained appears to be pigeon damage as when the crops are weak because of root damage if pigeons are then seen on said crop then everybody thinks its the pigeons causing damage.

My forum name has nowt to do with my age oe knowledge its just that a forum name.

Regards OTH

[M ROBSON]

OTH,

 

With all due respect don't try and tell me what I have seen with my own eyes! I have shot pigeons for 24 years and been envolved in a commercial shooting business for the last 10, so I have enough know how to tell the difference between flood damage and pigeon damage.

 

I have in the past been contacted by despirate farmers who have learned of me through their farming friends, and asked to come along and sort out their pigeon problem. Sometimes they are too late and the field is beyond help.

 

I once went to a 40 acre Rape field with bad pigeon damage in mid april, while there were drillings all around, the birds were determined to feed on the rape instead. Half the field was in yellow flower and the other half was eaten down to the ground! The gun shot 150+ that day. And the farmer had to re-drill 20 acres of the field with spring barley. If it was left the weed would overtake what was left of the rape plants and it would be a waste of time.

 

I can recall half a dozen such fields over the years. But even more common is to find a small patch in the corner of a field that the pigeons persist with and knock it back so far behind the rest of the field that it is unable to be combined with the rest. Surely you have seen this amount of pigeon damage?

 

Why do you think farmers are so paranoid about pigeons? They may not have whitnessed it themselfs but I bet they know someone who has.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

[Catamong]

There's no doubt that Pigeon numbers, (and consequent bird damage) will vary from area to area, Fife in Scotland must be a World apart from Wiltshire, I would guess that there's probably slightly less arable land per sq mile in Fife, therefore the birds may hit some fields a lot harder than they do in Wilts, where they're spoiled for choice.

 

Having said that, like Mark, I've been at this game a while, I've seen Pigeons shrunken to the size of Collared Doves through starvation in the big freeze of 1962, and again in the '80's when we had the last spell of prolonged snow cover, although not on the scale of '62.

 

I've known of fields of Winter rape being re-drilled, but not, as far as I am aware, solely due to Pigeon damage. In my experience, rape hit hard by Pigeons generally recovers well, provided the birds are kept off during the Spring growth stage, which in this part of the World is generally from late Feb onwards. It's amazing how you could look at some fields in February and not know that there was anything growing on them, by the end of June that field would be 6 feet tall in rape, it's amazing what a good dose of fert will do.

 

Cat.

[Cookiemonsterandmerlin.]

OTH,

 

With all due respect don't try and tell me what I have seen with my own eyes! I have shot pigeons for 24 years and been envolved in a commercial shooting business for the last 10, so I have enough know how to tell the difference between flood damage and pigeon damage.

 

I have in the past been contacted by despirate farmers who have learned of me through their farming friends, and asked to come along and sort out their pigeon problem. Sometimes they are too late and the field is beyond help.

 

I once went to a 40 acre Rape field with bad pigeon damage in mid april, while there were drillings all around, the birds were determined to feed on the rape instead. Half the field was in yellow flower and the other half was eaten down to the ground! The gun shot 150+ that day. And the farmer had to re-drill 20 acres of the field with spring barley. If it was left the weed would overtake what was left of the rape plants and it would be a waste of time.

 

I can recall half a dozen such fields over the years. But even more common is to find a small patch in the corner of a field that the pigeons persist with and knock it back so far behind the rest of the field that it is unable to be combined with the rest. Surely you have seen this amount of pigeon damage?

 

Why do you think farmers are so paranoid about pigeons? They may not have whitnessed it themselfs but I bet they know someone who has.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

 

 

Cheers Mark for your reply I have no intention to offend yourself about what you have seen not seen and respect your comments.

But with all due respect too I cant see somebody who takes paying guess to shoot pigeons saying pigeons dont cause massive damage to crops as it would be self defeating to your own business .

Off course you going to tell your farmesr that pigeons cause massive damage other wise part of your livelyhood would be put under threat and I can understand your defence on this subject.

I think as Cat says most crops have window where any pests can cause alot of damage and this the key moments to control the birds or pests.

All the very best OTH