28g cheapies

[poontang]

Most of us on here can break clays at that range and yes clays take very little energy to break, but you cannot compare that to killing pigeons cleanly!

 

There are those of us here that could undoubtably hit pigeons at those ranges, including MC, hes a bloody good shoot, but none of them would die!!!!

 

The main bulk of the energy in a 28g no 7 is gone after 30 yards and will no longer have the energy to penetrate and hit vital organs in the pigeon required to kill it effectivley past a decoy pattern,

 

And you seriously expect us to believe that you never take a shot out past your decoys??? whatever!

 

What Mc and the others are saying is that the heavier loads were designed to kill game more effectively, clay loads were designed to break clays which require very little energy to break, so show your prey some respect and use loads that were actually designed for the job.

 

You also need to grow up and show some respect to your fellow shooters, you admit yourself that you dont know MC, hes a very good shot on game and clays and I would certainly rather shoot with some one like him who does things properly and takes our sport seriously than someone like you who professes to shoot lots of pigeons with inadequate shells and then protests a wee bit too much when you get criticised for it, like you know its wrong but now you have made your statements you have to stick to it to stop yourself looking stupid. :unsure:

 

Spot on sir.

 

Oh, and as for someone mentioning research, i researched all the major cartridge manufacturers and the BASC websites and not one of them recommend clay cartridges for pigeon shooting.

 

I wonder why?

[MC]

if seven and a half shot is wrong for pigeon why do eley and such like load sevens as a game cartridge.heres some figures from just carts size 7 1/2 2.3mm 400 pellets per oz 7s 2.4 mm 340 pellets per oz 6.5 2.5mm 310 pellets per oz 6s 2.5 mm 270 pellets per oz so is it the distance of the shot that is taken with 7 1/2 ie 30 or 40 yards that is in question or the impact of the pellets and the pattern

 

For exactly the same reason that manufacturers load different shot sizes for all manner of cartridges. Clay loads are loaded in anything from 6.5's to 9.5's for completely different applications.

 

As snelliboy bought up John Batley and Archie Coates if you watch their DVD's they both state that they used to use 7's but changed to 6's to stop the runners and ensure a clean kill.

 

Seems AA benelliboy is wrong again yet he won't admit it.

 

Come on benelliboy what is your CPSA number? so we can check out your claims?

[starlight32]

thanks for that intelligent input there chamber. i see you are a expert on cartridge performance as well then???

 

Believe me FC has forgotten more about ammuntion than most likely a 100% of members on here. Search his posts especially the ones with pictures.

 

 

Is the balling a result of hot gases fusing the lead, or is it down to poor quality control at the cartridge factory?

 

(I'm not trying to stir up an argument, I am genuinly interested in this on!)

 

It is was often caused when molten wax fell on a cartridge and leaked through into the shot column. Was a common problem up to the late 19th and early 20th century when candles were still used a lot particularly in rural areas. People would stand shells near light sources to ensure good ignition from dampness as they were paper cases.

 

Balling was a common result, you are effectively firing a solid slug.

Edited January 21, 2010 by starlight32

[starlight32]

For the record, too many people are using steel clay loads for which they were not intended for.

 

Be warned, if you use too much steel, in the end lead will be banned. It is what the establishment want. The part time (as I call it) clay shooting & pigeon shooting fraternity use cheap loads due to cost and thats the bottom line of it all.

 

I have always used good shells, I moan about the cost like we all do but nevertheless I have never changed my stance on it ever since I have been shooting.

 

Years ago, (and there will be a few that remember) You were more likely to see a 32g cartridge than a 28g one-Even most clay loads were 32g.

 

Lower load weights are only a recent thing which have come on in the last few years to cut production base costs and ease price increases from the manufacturers.

 

Don't get me wrong, some to enjoy shooting have watch their costs and I don't blame them, but think of it another away.

 

Better cartridge=less shots=more kills.....Simples.

 

Forget for a minute about the where the gun is pointing bit-Guys like Catamog and John Bidwell can use a 28 gauge with a 14g shell against any of us with a 12g & 36g on game or pigeons and still win hands down.To the average shooter who shoots regularly and (is on target within reason) will achieve a better performance with a slightly heavier shell and a larger shot size.

 

Had a guy turn up on my game shoot before christmas as a guest. New to game shooting and had 24g steel clay loads in his pocket. I have to say I made him buy two boxes of something more suitable from out the back of my truck.

 

No ill feeling but the difference between something decent up your barrels is no more than around a fiver per 250 cartridges.

 

Have a look and you will see.

[utectok]

I have read allot of these threads and too sum up them for me it would seem if your a deadly shot cartridge choice isnot as important as if your an average shot. From what I have read the effective kill zone of any cartridge is a sort of cigar shape and close up and far away becomes smaller. Given that it takes "x" energy to kill a bird this can be imparted by a few large pellets or more smaller ones. If your excelent at shooting a smaller shot size will still be fine becuase it's a dense pattern. All this is true up to a point I think obviously light shot is pretty soon going to have not enough energy to kill even in density. For the record I shoot 32 gm 6s on deeks but I'm an average shot 1:3 man boo hoo !

Edited January 21, 2010 by utectok

[benelli montefeltro]

i wont dignify any of the above responses with a direct reply as to be honest i dont think that they are worthy of one. and also mc is being rather childish in trying to make this a personal thing i see. asking for my cpsa number, whats that all about. i pmd him and he was hurt when i blocked his replys because i didnt want to listen to his rubbish. any posts that were made since i was last here covered no new ground, and all my points were sidestepped. you guys wound with your 6s just the same. they are not the be all and end all

[MC]

Childish?

 

Where do you get off? You are the big man claiming to be an AA class shot and I asked for proof. Nothing childish in that. Also you send me PM's and then block me so I cannot respond and you have the neck to call me childish.

 

That is a bit like the fox calling the badger hairy a r s e wouldn't you say.

 

You are more than welcome to have my CPSA number and also my full name and address if you want, I have nothing to hide. I am a B class sporting shooter.

 

Hurt because you blocked me? Hardly I just think it is downright rude to have a go at someone and not allow them the courtesy to reply. But then again as you have proved time and time again that is you down to a tea

[starlight32]

I have read allot of these threads and too sum up them for me it would seem if your a deadly shot cartridge choice isnot as important as if your an average shot. From what I have read the effective kill zone of any cartridge is a sort of cigar shape and close up and far away becomes smaller. Given that it takes "x" energy to kill a bird this can be imparted by a few large pellets or more smaller ones. If your excelent at shooting a smaller shot size will still be fine becuase it's a dense pattern. All this is true up to a point I think obviously light shot is pretty soon going to have not enough energy to kill even in density. For the record I shoot 32 gm 6s on deeks but I'm an average shot 1:3 man boo hoo !

 

 

Move up to 36g of 6's and you will enjoy a ratio of 1:2.....simples

[BlaserF3]

Here is a comparison in ballistics

 

Game cartridge http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/products/ga...l_pigeon_12.cfm

 

Clay cartridge http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/products/co..._one_dtl300.cfm

 

Steel cartridge http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/products/co...amp;button=View

 

Just compare the velocity and energy between them and you will see which is the correct cartridge for pigeons as they do deserve to be killed cleanly.

[Floating Chamber]

Some idiot swopped 5.56mm for 7.62mm; now look at the trouble our guys are in! Know-alls know ****-all.

[Guest cookoff013]

i like hull cartridge, they have many cartridges available. all have there different uses.

pigeon special, has a picture of a pigeon (what they are intended for). it is available in one shotsize.

the english 6. it is available in 6 shotsize only to keep costs down. it is aimed at a value pigeon shooter.

 

i use 5`s and 4`s for rabbits (well i did)

6`s for pigeon

7.5-8s on clay.

 

all with 1/2 choke minimum, i actually like it !

[fortune82]

This is amazing! An argument running over 3 days because someone asked if it was OK to use some 28gram no.7.5 on pigeons!!

 

At the end of the day some people seem to think woodies wear kevlar jackets and need some sort of assault rifle to ensure a clean kill. Its utter ****. A 28 gram no.7.5 cartridge contains a lot more pellets than 32gram no.6 and each of those pellets will penetrate deeper due to their smaller size. A number 6 has more energy yes but will hit the bird with fewer pellets.

[MC]

This is amazing! An argument running over 3 days because someone asked if it was OK to use some 28gram no.7.5 on pigeons!!

 

At the end of the day some people seem to think woodies wear kevlar jackets and need some sort of assault rifle to ensure a clean kill. Its utter ****. A 28 gram no.7.5 cartridge contains a lot more pellets than 32gram no.6 and each of those pellets will penetrate deeper due to their smaller size. A number 6 has more energy yes but will hit the bird with fewer pellets.

 

 

No they won't, as I have already stated the facts they carry less energy and therefore will NOT penetrate as far. They will only penetrate deeper is they are delivered with the same energy as the no.6 which is not possible as they both leave the barrel at similar velocity and the smaller shot dissipates its energy quicker.

[al4x]

hate to say it MC but your physics is out there, a smaller shot size requires less energy to go to a certain depth than another with a bigger surface area.

 

keep trying though, I'm intrigued as I only use 6's but have watched some very good shots using 7's on game with no problems at all. Claims of better pattern more shot in the same area so a greater number of hits etc are used as reasons never tried it but its hard to ague when someone is getting the results especially as often its with a lighter load and through an old English S/S which I'd have more luck with if I turned it round and tried to hit them with the stock :unsure:

[benelli montefeltro]

No they won't, as I have already stated the facts they carry less energy and therefore will NOT penetrate as far. They will only penetrate deeper is they are delivered with the same energy as the no.6 which is not possible as they both leave the barrel at similar velocity and the smaller shot dissipates its energy quicker.

the whole thing is mc i have shot birds consistently with them, so i KNOW that you are talking gibberish. at 40 yards plus. effectively you have to be saying that i am a liar and i do not kill anything with them. and i would have no reason to lie. the evidence is there for me in the sky when i shoot a nice flighting pigeon, and he folds up dead in the air. thats all the proof i need that my cartridges are up to the job. and also when i do accasionally miss or wing one, i dont immediatiately start doubting my cartridges, like an awful lot do, who then convince themselves they need bigger stuff for the job.

[MC]

You still haven't backed up your claim about being an AA class shooter though have you?

 

And AL4x

 

at the same range fired from the same velocity cartridge a 6 will do more damage to vital organs which is required for a clean kill than a 7.5. Because it carries more energy FACT.

 

Don't argue with me argue with Eley after all they print the facts in their diary and I would hazard a guess that they know more about cartridges than most.

 

Except obviously benelliboy who is a self proclamined expert on ballistics and shooting only he doesn't have the balls to stand up and be counted.

 

And for the record I have never called you a liar, it is a shame you cannot say the same as you have called me one. I have also never said that you do not kill anything with whatever cheap inferior cartridges you use. My point is and has always been that they are not up to the job at range.

 

I will ask you a straight forward question and hopefully you will answer it honestly.

 

What do you do if you go out pigeon shooting and the birds will not come into to your killing area and keep skirting off at about 40 yards? Do you not fire a shot or do you take chancey shots and hope for the best?

[benelli montefeltro]

You still haven't backed up your claim about being an AA class shooter though have you?

 

And AL4x

 

at the same range fired from the same velocity cartridge a 6 will do more damage to vital organs which is required for a clean kill than a 7.5. Because it carries more energy FACT.

 

Don't argue with me argue with Eley after all they print the facts in their diary and I would hazard a guess that they know more about cartridges than most.

 

Except obviously benelliboy who is a self proclamined expert on ballistics and shooting only he doesn't have the balls to stand up and be counted.

 

And for the record I have never called you a liar, it is a shame you cannot say the same as you have called me one. I have also never said that you do not kill anything with whatever cheap inferior cartridges you use. My point is and has always been that they are not up to the job at range.

 

I will ask you a straight forward question and hopefully you will answer it honestly. i kill em all stone dead mc!!! every time! clouds of feathers everywhere. hope this anawers your quetion. you have quite a temper you know, need to get that sorted

 

What do you do if you go out pigeon shooting and the birds will not come into to your killing area and keep skirting off at about 40 yards? Do you not fire a shot or do you take chancey shots and hope for the best?

[MC]

 

Silence is a virtue and it also speaks volumes

[benelli montefeltro]

i refuse to debate this anymore with someone who does not listen to reason or logic. what is the point. its ok il lift your pm ban so we can chat. just calm down ok?? your going to have a heart attack

[al4x]

is it time to debate using 5's for pigeons yet? :unsure:

[Jim Sarakun]

is it time to debate using 5's for pigeons yet? :unsure:

 

Or 28gram 8's even?

[al4x]

I think when he started mentioning 8's thats when Benelli whathisface got a few backs up. As lets face it there are plenty of 28g 7's designed for game in production

[chunkyed]

Spot on sir.

 

Oh, and as for someone mentioning research, i researched all the major cartridge manufacturers and the BASC websites and not one of them recommend clay cartridges for pigeon shooting.

 

I wonder why?

Good point Sir. :unsure:

[Jim Sarakun]

Freedom of speech and hot blooded debate at it's best. Keep going chaps, and keep it clean, there are still some not too clearly answered questions here.

[chunkyed]

Where i go clay shooting i buy English sporter 28g 7.5's. Want to know why? Because they are £4.00 a box thats why. But if you wing a clay then its not really a problem is it. This hole thread is about CHEAP cartridges. If you are happy to mess around with cheap **** then thats fine.