#6 or #7???

[Dempy]

At sensible ranges 7's will kill fine but there is no logic for them working better than 6's at range. I've even shot a fox with 7's which didn't know what hit it, but its all to do with range. As said 7's will give you a dense pattern at 30 yards and kill pigeons no problem, its when you stretch over that you will have issues. I use 6.5's at the moment for most things and if you point them in the right direction they work well

 

 

It slike shooting foxes at range, you really want a 22.250 :(

[al4x]

judging by last year had I been trying to shoot that particular fox with my superior .223 I'd have missed, 10 yards seems to be where I struggle with it

[Dempy]

judging by last year had I been trying to shoot that particular fox with my superior .223 I'd have missed, 10 yards seems to be where I struggle with it

 

not suprising with slow round, get a 22.250 much flatter

[al4x]

not suprising with slow round, get a 22.250 much flatter

 

 

much flatter, much noisier, much more powder, much reduced barrel life the list goes on and on

[Guest cookoff013]

6's for pigeons and rabbits and crows,

5's or 4's for hares.

ZB

 

+1

but i will add this, 6s are a great bird cartridge. i really dont like the idea of shooting anything bigger in the air (apart from wildfowling)

4-5-6 for rabbit, (i`d be near enough 5.)

4min-3 for hare.

 

the english 6 is a great shotsize, but it isnt the best for all applications. it is a great shotsize for birds, close pheasant on a drive, decoyed pigeon.

i`ve shot rabbits / hare with 4s. its no different than with 6s. "bang + dead"

 

just try and match the quarry weight to the shotsize.

shooting rabbits with bbs is alittle over kill, but then #7 on fox shouldnt be done.

 

if i had to buy 2 cartridges, 32 g#6 for birds

34-36 #4 for light ground game

[Vince Green]

Put up a big sheet of brown paper, fire at it with 5 shot, then do the same for 6 shot and 7 shot on different pieces of paper at about 35 yds. Use 30g or 32g cartridges

Then take them home and see how many gaps there are in the pattern about the same size as a pigeon's body, a little smaller than your fist.

 

That will tell you everything you need to know.

[Dekers]

There seems a total lack of understanding on this thread about energy.

 

Put a board up and note the penetration of different shot sizes!!!

 

It matters not how dense the pattern is if the shot does not have the energy to kill, the lighter the shot the less energy each has, the less penetration each has and the quicker it runs out of energy.

 

Larger shot holds its energy better and has much better stopping power than light loads.

 

ENERGY kills not a dense pattern!!

 

For example, No 9 is very dense but has barely surface penetration at 20 yards in 40mm chipboard, at the same distance SG loads will go right through!!

 

The right load for ther right quarry at the right distance is what is required!

[chrispti]

There seems a total lack of understanding on this thread about energy.

 

Put a board up and note the penetration of different shot sizes!!!

 

It matters not how dense the pattern is if the shot does not have the energy to kill, the lighter the shot the less energy each has, the less penetration each has and the quicker it runs out of energy.

 

Larger shot holds its energy better and has much better stopping power than light loads.

 

ENERGY kills not a dense pattern!!

 

For example, No 9 is very dense but has barely surface penetration at 20 yards in 40mm chipboard, at the same distance SG loads will go right through!!

 

The right load for ther right quarry at the right distance is what is required! :look:

[Vince Green]

There seems a total lack of understanding on this thread about energy.

 

Put a board up and note the penetration of different shot sizes!!!

 

It matters not how dense the pattern is if the shot does not have the energy to kill, the lighter the shot the less energy each has, the less penetration each has and the quicker it runs out of energy.

 

Larger shot holds its energy better and has much better stopping power than light loads.

 

ENERGY kills not a dense pattern!!

 

For example, No 9 is very dense but has barely surface penetration at 20 yards in 40mm chipboard, at the same distance SG loads will go right through!!

 

The right load for ther right quarry at the right distance is what is required!

 

The textbook requirement for pellet energy is usually regarded as being 1.5 ft lbs and 7s will fulfill that requirement easily. Energy counts for nothing if none of the pellets actually hit the pigeon. A pigeon's body is really small under all those feathers .

Actually my beef is not so much with the shot size, I have used 7s for over 35 years now and I'm not going to change now. My beef is with the tendency of the cartridge manufacturers to produce increasingly lighter shot loads in the interests of cheapness.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Vince Green

[onlyme]

well..... toyed with lots of different carts when i first started to learn, and shot size does make a difference at distance and ultimate stopping power, but pattern always fails before the power is to low on all the larger shot sizes appart from 7's which run out of puff at 45 yards , i use tighter chokes nowadays so i do get a denser pattern, ive found its not the amount of penetration that always kills a bird but the shock of having lots of lead hit it and folds it out the air... i find 28gram of 7's spot on for pigeons along with 32gram of 6's .... 6's are good in 32gram to 36gram loads for crows and walked up shooting where the longer shots are normally taken and will most definately down a rabbit.. 5's are super effective but like has been said try a few carts against a pattern plate the holes you get can be quite big so the chances of hitting a pigeon with more than 2-3 pellets at 45 yards gets a bit slim if you slightly miss lead it with a 32 gram load.. horses for courses really , a nice 32 gram load of 6.5's would be the happy medium for me good pattern density and enough stopping power out to sensible ranges... or if in doubt just use a tighter patterning choke and cartridge setup to gain another 5 to 10 yards ..... got to admit i do love using 42gram of no 4's on rabbits because you aint going to get a runner and will down charlie cleanly out to 25-30 yards... always pays to buy up the left overs from the gunshops at the end of the game season , good deals can be had on the heavy high bird loads that are literally give away prices.... i was getting 42gram of 3's and 4's for 45quid a box of 250 ! so i bought a few :)well all of them to my mates dismay

[Dekers]

The textbook requirement for pellet energy is usually regarded as being 1.5 ft lbs and 7s will fulfill that requirement easily. Energy counts for nothing if none of the pellets actually hit the pigeon. A pigeon's body is really small under all those feathers .

Actually my beef is not so much with the shot size, I have used 7s for over 35 years now and I'm not going to change now. My beef is with the tendency of the cartridge manufacturers to produce increasingly lighter shot loads in the interests of cheapness.

 

 

 

 

 

Chap, you are still not getting the point, 7...8...9 will kill you, if the range is right and they hit you in the right place, but as distance increases, the energy in small shot drops off VERY quickly.

 

If you have found a distance that works for you in your 35 years of using 7, and stick to it, then great. That will give you about 30 yards END OF, push it out any further and you will ***** a lot! At 40 yards your 7 is producing approx 1.00 ft lb where a 5 is 1.9ft lb....50 yards 7 =0.7ft lb and 5=1.36ft lb...please do not tell me every pigeon shoother carries a rangefinder and positively refuses to pull the trigger at anything past 30yards!

 

The pattern on a 5 or 6 is NOT going to miss a pigeon at sensible ranges. If you push it to a range a pigeon can walk through the pattern then a 7 (or smaller as some have suggested) is unlikely to have the energy to kill the pigeon anyway at that distance, however dense the pattern is!

 

I have not criticised anyone for using any load, I have merely pointed out that pattern does not kill, however dense it is, if you don't have the energy.

 

The right load for the right quarry at the right distance is what is required!

[Maidment78]

OK, daft question.

 

If you require 1.5 flb's and at 45 yrds a number 7 shot delivers 0.86, if you hit the target with a couple of pellets does not the combined hitting power of the pellets equal the magic number? or am I looking at this wrong? I hit quite a few birrds yearday at 40yrds. (I know it was 40 yrds ar the decoy the bird landed next to before I hit it was bang on 40) and the birds dropped dead with no fuss.

 

I am getting the idea though it is a conbination of the right size and what feels right to give you the confidence to take the shot.

 

Thanks again!

 

Paul.

[wymberley]

OK, daft question.

 

If you require 1.5 flb's and at 45 yrds a number 7 shot delivers 0.86, if you hit the target with a couple of pellets does not the combined hitting power of the pellets equal the magic number? or am I looking at this wrong? I hit quite a few birrds yearday at 40yrds. (I know it was 40 yrds ar the decoy the bird landed next to before I hit it was bang on 40) and the birds dropped dead with no fuss.

 

I am getting the idea though it is a conbination of the right size and what feels right to give you the confidence to take the shot.

 

Thanks again!

 

Paul.

Hello, mate.

No, each pellet needs to have the required energy. The text book requirement to kill a pigeon is three pellets in the vital area with a minimum energy of 0.85ft.lbs. To cater for all the variables, I, personally, call it a straight 1ft.lbs. What is sometimes missed when, if anyone actually bothers, to think about the requirement is that a 3 pellet strike is required not on average but on every shot. Consequently, choosing a pattern density to cater for that requirement will produce the goods. (Just out of interest, during the evaluation trials for non-toxic shot carried out in the UK it was noted that shotgun patterns conform quite nicely with the theory of probability and reflected that a pattern density selected to give an average pellet strike of 3 only did so 58% of the time).

As you have discovered, given sufficient strikes, 40 yards for #7 is OK (the top end) for pigeon.

Cheers

[seeker]

As Wymberley says above ... you need multiple hits with pellets carrying sufficient energy.

So its a balance of pellet size, velocity and pattern density at the target: if its about right in the right place there is a high likelyhood of a clean kill.

 

Like all good "discussions" there's a whole stack of variables ....

An English 7 is not an American, French, Spanish .. 7.

Antimony content: cartridge velocity: choke variation and shooter ability etc.

I was told the saying 'at 6s and 7s' comes from an argument between Victorian shooters: so its still got a while to run before there is an absolute answer.

If what you use works well for you and how you shoot, go with it because of the confidence factor and results: if not weigh up the advice given and make an informed change.

Now for those who remember Yellow Wizard .. how did we actually manage to shoot pigeons with them?

[Vince Green]

Chap, you are still not getting the point, 7...8...9 will kill you, if the range is right and they hit you in the right place, but as distance increases, the energy in small shot drops off VERY quickly.

 

If you have found a distance that works for you in your 35 years of using 7, and stick to it, then great. That will give you about 30 yards END OF, push it out any further and you will ***** a lot! At 40 yards your 7 is producing approx 1.00 ft lb where a 5 is 1.9ft lb....50 yards 7 =0.7ft lb and 5=1.36ft lb...please do not tell me every pigeon shoother carries a rangefinder and positively refuses to pull the trigger at anything past 30yards!

 

The pattern on a 5 or 6 is NOT going to miss a pigeon at sensible ranges. If you push it to a range a pigeon can walk through the pattern then a 7 (or smaller as some have suggested) is unlikely to have the energy to kill the pigeon anyway at that distance, however dense the pattern is!

 

I have not criticised anyone for using any load, I have merely pointed out that pattern does not kill, however dense it is, if you don't have the energy.

 

The right load for the right quarry at the right distance is what is required!

Deckers I love our discussions because we often seem to lock horns on subjects and I do enjoy it. My main belief is that a 32g cartridge is what is required and shot size is perhaps secondary to the main discussion.

 

What I really deplore is all these reduced loads that the cartridge manufacturers are churning out and want us to believe they are not inferior. IMO its lead in the air that counts more than anything else.

[onlyme]

i dont think the pigeons know about required energy full choke at 40 yards is full choke 7's or 5's you do realise also that some of the lads that suggested they use sevens actually reload there own to slightly higher velocitys also?...... just my view , obviously people have differnt views, but if it works it works ...... maybe you have used 7's through a lighter choke and had less shot on target ? i personally like 6's or 6.5's , but theres no doubting the effectiveness of 7's regardless of what some books say .... proof is in the pudding an all that....

[SSS]

I use 30 gram 6's for EVERYTHINGn I can kill with them, and regularly do

[Dekers]

Hello, mate.

No, each pellet needs to have the required energy. The text book requirement to kill a pigeon is three pellets in the vital area with a minimum energy of 0.85ft.lbs. To cater for all the variables, I, personally, call it a straight 1ft.lbs. What is sometimes missed when, if anyone actually bothers, to think about the requirement is that a 3 pellet strike is required not on average but on every shot. Consequently, choosing a pattern density to cater for that requirement will produce the goods. (Just out of interest, during the evaluation trials for non-toxic shot carried out in the UK it was noted that shotgun patterns conform quite nicely with the theory of probability and reflected that a pattern density selected to give an average pellet strike of 3 only did so 58% of the time).

As you have discovered, given sufficient strikes, 40 yards for #7 is OK (the top end) for pigeon.

Cheers

 

The right load for the right quarry at the right distance is what is required!

 

ONE lump of lead, is all that is required if it has the energy, you only need lots if the shot is light and carrying a small amount of energy!

 

You do not need three Number 5 in the vitals as each shot is carrying about twice the energy of a Number 7, one lump of number 5 is more than capable of stopping a pigeon.

 

You only have to start getting into this density/energy business if you push the load or distance.

 

Shoot straight and a pigeon will not get out of the way of any load, 20g are also very good on pigeon in the right hands.

 

Nothing wrong with lighter loads when the situation is right, or heavier, just so long as the pigeon gets stopped

 

ATB!!

[wymberley]

The right load for the right quarry at the right distance is what is required!

 

ONE lump of lead, is all that is required if it has the energy, you only need lots if the shot is light and carrying a small amount of energy!

 

You do not need three Number 5 in the vitals as each shot is carrying about twice the energy of a Number 7, one lump of number 5 is more than capable of stopping a pigeon.

 

You only have to start getting into this density/energy business if you push the load or distance.

 

Shoot straight and a pigeon will not get out of the way of any load, 20g are also very good on pigeon in the right hands.

 

Nothing wrong with lighter loads when the situation is right, or heavier, just so long as the pigeon gets stopped

 

ATB!!

Morning,

I think you mis-read me in as much as I said vital area and not vitals. In shotgun terms there is a difference between the two. I must say it appears that you seem to be confusing the lethal effectiveness of a shotgun with that of a rifle: but perhaps it is the case that I have also mis-read you.

Cheers

[Alycidon]

Evening all,

 

Being new to the whole shotgun scene I am finding it really hard to decide what is good and what is not. There seems to be hundreds of people who swear by one thing then the same who swears by another.

 

I would say I shoot 90% pigeon and 10% rabbit, I will not mention at what % I shoot at either as this is different again but I started using a number 6 cartridge and found that out to 30 yards I was more than capable of hitting most things to a reasonable degree but further out than this I was missing more than I hit, then with the number 7 cartridge I would hit about the same close and a little more further out.

 

I have a Lanber fixed choke over and under so whatever I fire it is the same and I am not messing about confusing myself with different patterns (I thought I would save that for a bit then get really confused.)

 

My BASC guide to shooting book states that for Hare a number 6 shot is advisable but it does not mention rabbit? I am just worried if I use a smaller shot with less hitting energy then I may not deliver a clean kill. I do not mind missing but I do mind any unnecesary pain for any animal so my question is for a beginner that has an average hit ration of less than 50% what would be a good choice?

 

I do not want to cause an argument here but I am genuinely interested in other people experiences while out in the field.

 

Thanks again,

 

Paul.

 

I have shot a 12 bore for the last 45 years, generally these days in the winters against driven game.

 

For the past 10 years I have used 30gr of 5 shot over a felt wad, Hull or Eley in a lightweight o/u game gun.

 

 

Practically everything I hit is dead in the air with 1/4 & 1/2 choke and 5s, anything I hit than flies on is dead where it comes to earth 98% of the time. If I hang my tighter set (1/2 + 3/4) set of barrels on there is little difference but against geese I prefer a tighter pattern and Hevishot 3s or bigger.

 

When I was a lot younger I used 7,5s, I always had a pricked bird at the end of a drive, usually these were not picked. I later switched to 7s and still had a problem all be it reduced, 6s are much better but 5s are where it's at.

 

I would use Eley Grand Prix 30gr for everything, they have a felt wad so no litter and 5 shot will allow you to take shots to 45 yards knowing that an instant kill is usually the outcome given good placement.

 

A