What can a Clay Association do for you

[Mungler]

Cat you are absolutely missing the point, but hey, that's what the CPSA is all about.

 

This is about membership volume, pounds, shillings and pence. The sniffy view that because you can break more clays than someone else or are in a higher classification, that this somehow makes your annual membership subscription more important than the next man..... well it doesn't.

 

The point I am struggling to make with you is that the hay balers you deride are in the majority and by not tapping that market the CPSA are missing out on and not representing the majority of clay shooters.

 

You say there are no suggestions on how to make the CPSA more inclusive - did you read anything in this thread or just your own posts?

 

You say the smaller grounds won't join the CPSA because there's nothing in it for them. Genius. Absolutely genius. A back of the net moment for me Following on, do you also think there's a whole load of hay balers who aren't joining the CPSA because there is nothing in it for them? Following on, do you think the CPSA might want to take a teensy weensy look at addressing these issues and thus obtaining a wider membership?

 

Again, the function of the CPSA to the "pro shooter" is nothing more than a fixture and scoring service. It is not that difficult and is a function that could be provided in conjunction with far wider and greater services to all clay shooters and clay grounds.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Mungler

[Dunkield]

The generalisations going round are indeed classic stuff

 

So, if you don't shoot CPSA shoots you give your money to some spiv who runs and unsafe, easy ground, that is shot by uninsured pump shooters before they go to the pub to get hammered.

 

If you do shoot CPSA shoots you are just sponsoring those at the very top of their game, so Digweed, Faulds and Suffolk Shooter

[Catamong]

If you do shoot CPSA shoots you are just sponsoring those at the very top of their game, so Digweed, Faulds and Suffolk Shooter

 

I'm not sure the Northern fraternity on this forum would agree with that one, they're regular beneficiaries of payouts at CPSA Registered shoots, they probably pick up more in prize money than I do in a season, as I only have to beat Fauldsy, Diggy, and even Suffolk Shooter.

 

To get back to Mungs point, if I was running a "Straw Baler", why on Gods Earth would I want to join the CPSA, which stands for order, proper targets, regulation, fair payouts, club insurance, and playing things by a set of published rules, not on your life, my only concern would be how much wonga I could extract from the folk that roll in on a Sunday morning..??

 

Cat.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Catamong

[Mungler]

If the CPSA want more members and wants to avoid dying out, then they need to crack on and answer those questions..... there are some answers in this thread and on the forums generally, but hey, the CPSA use their time re-arranging the deckchairs on HMS CPSA Titantic with internal politics, squabbles and Employment Tribunals.

 

Look at BASC. BASC doesn't just appeal to the landed gentry and to the massive estates owners for membership. They have smaller and DIY shoots in mind as well as the shooting man and have membership packages tailored (1) to be of interest and (2) to be in the right price bracket.

 

It's not that difficult really, it just needs a new look at it, and that is just *never* going to happen.

[David BASC]

In my opinion clay pigeon shooting is much like any sport, at the bottom end you have loads of participants with very mixed ability and mixes aspirations, and at the top you have very few participants with very good ability and very focussed aspirations.

 

You need to keep pumping new blood in at the bottom to keep popping national and international class competitors at the top.

 

Not everyone will want to be a competitor, so you need to cater for this.

 

With limited resources though you are limited in what you can deliver, but you still need to maintain profile all the way though this pyramid if you are the representative body.

 

Last year I took up 22 target shooting, a sport ultimately governed by the NSRA, I joined a local club and I shoot there at least once a week. I do not have to join the NSRA, but if I don’t my scores don’t go into the national rankings. Frankly I am not bothered by that – you would know why if you saw my scores…but NSRA ‘branding’ is very evident at the club, NSRA mags, NSRA notices, NSRA posters giving guidance on shot position and so on.

 

Some members are trained by the NSRA as coaches and or range officers

 

The club is affiliated to the NSRA – I have no idea how much its costs but its not much, and we get loads of notices etc from them.

 

Its not hard to do, surely for clay shooting, get more shoots on board, supply them with regular newsletters / info, encourage them to send at least one member on an instructors course or a safety course, encourage informal competitions, link them up with other local shoots to run informal competitions, send out some badges as prizes for the best shot or the most improved shot that year in the club and so on.

 

 

David

[Chris Bb]

In my opinion clay pigeon shooting is much like any sport, at the bottom end you have loads of participants with very mixed ability and mixes aspirations, and at the top you have very few participants with very good ability and very focussed aspirations.

 

You need to keep pumping new blood in at the bottom to keep popping national and international class competitors at the top.

 

Not everyone will want to be a competitor, so you need to cater for this.

 

With limited resources though you are limited in what you can deliver, but you still need to maintain profile all the way though this pyramid if you are the representative body.

 

Last year I took up 22 target shooting, a sport ultimately governed by the NSRA, I joined a local club and I shoot there at least once a week. I do not have to join the NSRA, but if I don’t my scores don’t go into the national rankings. Frankly I am not bothered by that – you would know why if you saw my scores…but NSRA ‘branding’ is very evident at the club, NSRA mags, NSRA notices, NSRA posters giving guidance on shot position and so on.

 

Some members are trained by the NSRA as coaches and or range officers

 

The club is affiliated to the NSRA – I have no idea how much its costs but its not much, and we get loads of notices etc from them.

 

Its not hard to do, surely for clay shooting, get more shoots on board, supply them with regular newsletters / info, encourage them to send at least one member on an instructors course or a safety course, encourage informal competitions, link them up with other local shoots to run informal competitions, send out some badges as prizes for the best shot or the most improved shot that year in the club and so on.

 

 

David

Now that all makes sense to me.

[webber]

I've not posted on the CPSA debate so far. As a none member looking in from the outside, it looks such a sorry mess really, with one problem after another, year on year.

 

I was wondering, as I'm sure others have; how difficult it would be to incorporate the function of CPSA under the BASC umbrella?

My thoughts, for what they are worth, are that clay shooting could operate as a department within BASC.

A lot of the membership admin function could be absorbed into the existing BASC mechanism.

I do feel that the prize money aspect of CPSA is clouding many issues, and if I were a member would want to see prize money dropped completely; unless the shooters declare themselves as professional, and thats another matter. Personally, I don't feel that prize money brings anything to the sport of shooting, other than greed.

 

I accept that if such a merger were ever to happen, BASC would not gain 25,000 members, but the membership would climb dramatically, and the BASC voice would be all the louder, and represent a broader church in the eyes of government.

 

Just think how powerful the voice of NRA is in America. OK, we would be a long way from that mark, but shooting in Britain does need a unified voice. Small associations with 10 - 30, 000 members or so will never have much political clout with government.

 

I've always seen the S, as shooting in all of its forms, and the C does what it says on the tin.

 

I've no idea what the finances of CPSA look like, I've not bothered to even try to find out; but if I were a member of CPSA, I would want the new CEO to ensure that the association is solvent, and then seek to merge with BASC, if not then another association capable of the task in hand, before the CPSA implodes.

 

webber

[Catamong]

Its not hard to do, surely for clay shooting, get more shoots on board, supply them with regular newsletters / info, encourage them to send at least one member on an instructors course or a safety course, encourage informal competitions, link them up with other local shoots to run informal competitions, send out some badges as prizes for the best shot or the most improved shot that year in the club and so on.

 

Yes, and I think you will find that's pretty much what the CPSA offer for their member clubs.

 

Cat.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Catamong

[al4x]

webber we know you think the sun shines out of the BASC's backside but that is very unlikely to be a good solution for the CPSA and probably not good for the BASC.

Whether we like it or not they have a lot of members who don't shoot live quarry and want an association for what they do. Personally the strawbalers round me are well run and hold insurance because quite simply the consequences of not doing so are massive so really the question is how can the CPSA get them to join. Munglers points of offering them advertising to all the associations members online is very valid as are the offers of insurance deals and help with planning issues.

 

p.s Cat do they have anyone physically out selling their club memberships?

Edited September 30, 2010 by al4x

[Catamong]

I've not posted on the CPSA debate so far. As a none member looking in from the outside, it looks such a sorry mess really, with one problem after another, year on year.

 

I was wondering, as I'm sure others have; how difficult it would be to incorporate the function of CPSA under the BASC umbrella?

My thoughts, for what they are worth, are that clay shooting could operate as a department within BASC.

A lot of the membership admin function could be absorbed into the existing BASC mechanism.

I do feel that the prize money aspect of CPSA is clouding many issues, and if I were a member would want to see prize money dropped completely; unless the shooters declare themselves as professional, and thats another matter. Personally, I don't feel that prize money brings anything to the sport of shooting, other than greed.

 

I accept that if such a merger were ever to happen, BASC would not gain 25,000 members, but the membership would climb dramatically, and the BASC voice would be all the louder, and represent a broader church in the eyes of government.

 

Just think how powerful the voice of NRA is in America. OK, we would be a long way from that mark, but shooting in Britain does need a unified voice. Small associations with 10 - 30, 000 members or so will never have much political clout with government.

 

I've always seen the S, as shooting in all of its forms, and the C does what it says on the tin.

 

I've no idea what the finances of CPSA look like, I've not bothered to even try to find out; but if I were a member of CPSA, I would want the new CEO to ensure that the association is solvent, and then seek to merge with BASC, if not then another association capable of the task in hand, before the CPSA implodes.

 

webber

 

Yeah, sounds like a good idea, but BASC have no interest in Clay Shooting, and many clay shooters don't shoot any live quarry or vice versa, nor would they want to support an organisation that does, it wouldn't exactly be a marriage made in heaven.

 

I can't see why you swallow the Mung line about the CPSA going down the pan, it's in a good position financially, membership is stable, they're not "leaving in droves", it's just not happening that way.

 

Cat.

[bakerboy]

Yeah, sounds like a good idea, but BASC have no interest in Clay Shooting, and many clay shooters don't shoot any live quarry or vice versa, nor would they want to support an organisation that does, it wouldn't exactly be a marriage made in heaven.

 

I can't see why you swallow the Mung line about the CPSA going down the pan, it's in a good position financially, membership is stable, they're not "leaving in droves", it's just not happening that way.

 

Cat.

I believe an important side thread has come up through this interesting issue,"UNINSURED SHOOTERS" is this an area that needs to be addressed. I would say that over 50% of the people I speak with/shoot with have no insurance, one day, this could perhaps come back and smack us in the face.,

Edited September 30, 2010 by bakerboy

[webber]

Yeah, sounds like a good idea, but BASC have no interest in Clay Shooting, and many clay shooters don't shoot any live quarry or vice versa, nor would they want to support an organisation that does, it wouldn't exactly be a marriage made in heaven.

 

I can't see why you swallow the Mung line about the CPSA going down the pan, it's in a good position financially, membership is stable, they're not "leaving in droves", it's just not happening that way.

 

Cat.

 

 

Hi Cat.

 

I wouldn't agree that BASC has no interest in clay shooting. BASC does train and provide coaches, puts on shooting stands at game fairs, and trains young shots on clays etc.

This year alone, I've attended two very good fund raiser clay shoots organised by BASC.

I do however feel that on occasion BASC does stand off with regards to clay shooting, for no other reason than they may not wish to be seen to be treading on the toes of CPSA, and to a degree duplicating a function. Obviously if the two did merge this potential problem would evaporate.

 

I did say that I saw the S, as shooting in all of its forms. I feel that its sad if shooters who shoot clays don't want to be associated with shooters who shoot live quarry, after all, what are the clay targets supposed to emulate?

 

I admit that I have found Munglers scribblings amusing, but I've not based my observations and comments on his.

 

webber

[Catamong]

I admit that I have found Munglers scribblings amusing

 

webber

 

Yes, they do say "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

 

Cat.

[David BASC]

As I have posted before, BASC is VERY interested in clay shooting. Not at running ranking or setting competition rules, but very keen to get more people clay shooting.

 

Not just new comers to shooting, but anyone who shoots live quarry should practice on clays, indeed as I have posted elsewhere.

 

I would love to work more closely with the CPSA to do just that, and this is something I want to take up with the new CEO when he / she is appointed.

 

On a personal level I LOVE flush shooting!

 

Evidently the CPSA need to get more grounds on board, in the whole of Cheshire there are just 2 CPSA grounds out of goodness knows how many, and 11,000 shooters!

 

It only costs from £55 for a club / ground to join the CPSA so cost cannot be an issue surely. ..but on the CPSA web site is does not say (or maybe I just cant find it!) what you get if you affiliate as a club… maybe that’s part of the problem, the clubs cant see the need/ benefit of affiliating?

 

David

[MC]

Well, you've hit the nail on the head there, wouldn't it be great if they had to join the CPSA before they threw their first 10 yard flopper, but the fact is, the "Haybaler grounds" won't join the CPSA because:

 

a) - There's nothing in it for them

B) - It costs them money that can be better spent on loose Women and fast cars

c) - They would have to adhere to the CPSA codes of practice regarding safe layouts / shooting / scoring / insurance etc, all of which are unnecessary distractions from ripping off the mug punter.

 

I suggest we continue this debate when I next give you another good whooping at High Lodge over the festive period...............but, hold on.............isn't that a CPSA "Premier Ground"..?? :hmm:

 

Cat.

 

 

So WAS lakenheath wasn't it?

 

The good old CPSA stuck there foot in again I assume?

 

As for adhering to the rules and regs maybe you could explain why the last REGISTERED shoot I shot had cages that were too short and I could not stand upright under the bar across the top. The scorer couldn't care less as he was too busy textiing his mates.

[PhilR]

I originated from straw bale sporting shoots and got the competitive bug but am now a trap shooter. The CPSA provides for my needs but I can see that it probably doesn't cater for the social shooters who have no aspiration to take their shooting to higher levels or the clubs that are there for them.

 

I do think it daft that each home country has it's own organisation (CPSA, WCTSA, SCTA, UCPSA) with associated duplication of costs. Before amalgamating with other shooting disciplines as was being planned, or BASC, I think it would be sensible for the home countries to amalgamate and form a British CPSA it will create a greater membership body and costs should and could be drastically reduced. Separate committees within it could be set up to deal with home country issues and for national/ GB teams for international events.

 

From various whispers I've heard in the past, for political reasons, the plan was for target shooting organisations to distance themselves from game shooting. Certainly a divide and conquer idea in my view, but perhaps a ploy helpful to the last government.

 

With a new CEO needed now is the time for change and a review of all functions. I don't know whether the new incumbent should be a shooting person or an outsider with business acumen but they must be able to see the wood from the trees, something not always possible if you're already closely involved perhaps.

 

Please do not let this, or other associated threads, turn into bitter and spiteful diatribes like another clay sporting forum.

Edited September 30, 2010 by philr

[Mungler]

It's been an interesting read really.

 

I am a fan of statistics. Again, Oracs stats are very enlightening. The last time I took a peak at the Essex stats it showed that about 60% of Essex CPSA members who shot, shot no more than 2 registered events a year.

 

Remember, the stats only collected data from those that actually shot a registered competition in any one year. If you had the details of the total Essex CPSA membership you would be able to work out how many had CPSA membership but never even shot a single registered competition in any one year. I reckon that number is quite high and representative of people who join the CPSA with the purchase of their first gun or who join for the insurance and or who are hay balers at heart. It is this inactive majority of the CPSA that other shooting organisations should target - they have CPSA membership but don't shoot registered competition and so don't actually need to be in the CPSA for what the CPSA currently offers. If the subs that the CPSA rely upon are from this inactive majority then it makes the CPSA very vulnerable indeed.

[PhilR]

It is this inactive majority of the CPSA that other shooting organisations should target - they have CPSA membership but don't shoot registered competition and so don't actually need to be in the CPSA for what the CPSA currently offers. If the subs that the CPSA rely upon are from this inactive majority then it makes the CPSA very vulnerable indeed.

 

I should think that in most organisations or clubs the inactive outweigh the active members. I belong to a one make car club, I won't make you jealous by naming it , because I have one. I no longer go to events or local club meets and just flip through the monthly magazine, but I get a discount on my classic car insurance by being in it but probably not as much as I pay per annum to belong to the club. Being in the club does give me the option of participating in anything that is organised should I want to at anytime. I'm sure that an awful lot of CPSA members are just the same with their membership, they don't criticise the CPSA management, they don't vote at directors elections, go to the AGM they're just happy belonging because they've a shotgun.

[Catamong]

It's been an interesting read really.

 

I am a fan of statistics. Again, Oracs stats are very enlightening. The last time I took a peak at the Essex stats it showed that about 60% of Essex CPSA members who shot, shot no more than 2 registered events a year.

 

Remember, the stats only collected data from those that actually shot a registered competition in any one year. If you had the details of the total Essex CPSA membership you would be able to work out how many had CPSA membership but never even shot a single registered competition in any one year. I reckon that number is quite high and representative of people who join the CPSA with the purchase of their first gun or who join for the insurance and or who are hay balers at heart. It is this inactive majority of the CPSA that other shooting organisations should target - they have CPSA membership but don't shoot registered competition and so don't actually need to be in the CPSA for what the CPSA currently offers. If the subs that the CPSA rely upon are from this inactive majority then it makes the CPSA very vulnerable indeed.

 

I think you'll find that most of these "inactive" members only hold membership of the CPSA as an insurance policy against a future clampdown on gun ownership.

 

Ironically, both BASC and the CPSA benefited from the outrages of Hungerford and Dunblane through a big increase in "ghost" members, who have no real interest in clay or rough shooting but need membership of an acredited organisation when the plod come knocking at their door to take away their shotguns.

 

I take Davids point that there are only 2 CPSA Registered grounds in Cheshire, how many would you think Essex have, (a clay shooting "desert" according to Mung)...??

 

4, 5, 6, maybe 7 or 8 at a pinch..??

 

Well, there's actually no fewer than 19 clubs that are CPSA Registered.

 

Cat.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Catamong

[David BASC]

It’s a shame Cheshire does not have more affiliated grounds, I am sure we used to have many more, but over the last 5 years or so numbers have dwindled. However, as far as I am aware there are still plenty of grounds, they have just not re-affiliated to the CPSA..

 

With the cost of affiliation so low and the potential to have your ground marketing by the CPSA on their web site, and I guess in their mag too, I can’t see why?

 

However, if these grounds have left the CPSA and seen no drop in income / traffic then I guess the answer is obvious, BUT if I were the CPSA officer in charge of promoting the CPSA I would still want to keep in touch with them and send them CPSA mags and ask them to promote the CPSA to their shooters…

 

David

[Reefcat]

I seem to have a foot in both camps here. I am a member of a number of clubs that hold regular informal sporting shoots. We compete against one another internally, but the social aspect is much more important. They're a great bunch of people, and I can't think of many things I would rather be doing on a sunday morning, that enjoying some shooting shared with friends.

 

I have also been shooting skeet competitively for the last 9 months or so. I'm not particularly good, but strive to improve my scores, and maybe one day I'll hit the magic 100/100.

 

I want an organisation that caters for both aspects of my shooting. I want political representation, so that when my sport is threatened, I have an organisation that will defend my chosen pastime. I want them to administer the competition regulations and fixtures. But I also want them to ecourage all clay shooters to join up, so that we as a community can influence government.

 

When I shot live quarry I was a member of WAGBI, then BASC. In terms of representation and speaking up for shooters, I think that BASC leads by a mile. If the CPSA only caters for the competitive shot, then I really don't think it has anywhere to go, the community is just too small.

 

There should be a natural synergy between all people who shoot clays for sport, and we need a single organisation to represent them. Whether thats a merger of BASC and CPSA as previously discussed, or a re-branded CPSA, time will tell.

 

I believe I'm right in saying that the UK is one of the only countries in the UK where insurance is not mandatory. Personally I think that any active SGC holder should have insurance, and in most other countries you have to be a member of a recognised association to get the insurance. Maybe only a matter of time for the UK.

[David BASC]

I think a very important point is that of enjoyment, after all that’s what we go shooting for!

 

But we need the confidence that our organisation(s) are there not only to help us when we need guidance and support, but to be fighting for shooting at the highest level.

 

Therein sits a problem in my view. Some of the smaller orgs simply don’t have enough resources to do everything, and frankly I have always been of the mind that it’s best to stick to what you are best at!

 

No sense is spreading yourself too thin as you are likely to achieve nothing and end up chasing your tail as you keep failing to deliver on projects and people start to moan… so you have to start trying to placate people – taking up more resource, so you still fail on certain projects, so more people moan…it ends up in ever decreasing circles.

 

The CPSA membership seems to be holding steady, and with a new CEO and a fresh approach and by sticking to their knitting as it were I am confident they can grow and go from strength to strength..

 

I don’t think they should go out and out for a membership drive, with bold statements about their package and half price membership deals to entice punters over to them, at the end of the day if you have a good product you don’t have to slash it to half price to sell it!

 

And of course when things are going well, everyone take the credit, when thing start to go wrong people start trying to find someone else to blame (sound familiar?)

 

Sometimes, especially with organisations, it’s important for the organisation to know EXACTLY what it is going to deliver and that it tells the members exactly what they can expect.

 

Did you know that 68% of customers who stop buying a product or service do so because they have the perception of the supplier not caring or delivering on their promises?

 

Those who shoot clays and want a strong well resourced membership body should support the CPSA and get involved with the CPSA.

 

Of course there are plenty of opportunities for BASC and the CPSA to work together, and I sincerely hope we can develop a very positive relationship with the new CEO. But BASC are not going to get involved in setting rules, running rankings and all of that sort of stuff- that is and should remain the CPSA’s remit.

 

David

[Salopian]

David,

The problems I see with the CPSA are possibly that although the greatest participating membership is from Sporting Target shooters the Board has historically been top heavy with skeet and trap shooters. Now that is not the fault of the Board, the Management or skeet shooters.

The fundamental problem lies with the apathy of the membership who every year have the opportunity to select and elect the right people for the job.

For the CPSA to move forward it needs a really good wake up call.

The Chairman actively went around shoots to get elected, once elected he has done nothing, the same goes for many others now on the Board, a chap from the East Midlands recently got elected with great hopes of bringing in change, he's done nothing to date, it's the same all the time, 'elect me please I will bring change that you want' once elected not so much as a thank you, and plenty of 'sod you'.

What clayshooting requires is enthusiastic promotion of clayshooting everywhere by all the organisations, yesterday I was promoting shooting & clayshooting to 300 primary school children at Knowsley Safari Park on behalf of a Wildfowling and Conservation Association. I didn't see anyone there from the CPSA.

Why?

The Head of the CPSA needs to be motivated and passionate about clayshooting and it's promotion, he will need a Board and a team who share his vision and if they can't step up to the plate they should stand down or be replaced.

[reddan]

You're destined to shoot forever alongside the camo clad, pump wielding, safety catch forgetting, uninsured mass of Sunday morning "straw bale" shooters who are quite happy to hit 25 or 30 out of 50 and then on to more important things like getting bladdered at their local.

 

Their money is far better spent on scratchcards, beer and fags, and as for Insurance, well, they don't need that, simply 'cos it costs them money, it's somebody elses problem.

 

Cat.

 

Nice Cat, no wonder the average shooter who goes once a week for fun doesn't want to join if that is the way the high scorers think of the average joe.

 

I think you'll find that most of these "inactive" members only hold membership of the CPSA as an insurance policy against a future clampdown on gun ownership.

Cat.

 

LOL if they are then they are truely misguided, I don't see CPSA defending anything. If it came down to a future clampdown on gun ownership I suspect the CPSA would point the finger elsewhere to save their own.

 

Actually I think you point here actually disproves your first, it is far more likely the inactive are just using CPSA for cheap insurance and therefore those "straw balers" probably are insured in the main. I did this, never went to a registered shoot but used CPSA for insurance cover before I saw the error of my ways.

 

Been saying for the last two years that all should merge with BASC.

 

Dan

Edited September 30, 2010 by reddan

[David BASC]

I think the CPSA should work with BASC to promote clay shooting to a wider community. Work that people like you do taking the story to shools is fantastic - I am always keen to do what ever I / BASC can to help with projects like that - please let me know if you want anything and I will see what I can do. Probably best to pM or e-mail just in case I miss a post on the forum!

 

Introduction to shooting MUST, in my view, be on targets.

 

As to a merger, well I cant see it happening, hell even the three target orgs at Bisley could not agree to get it together and they can each look out of their windows and wave at each other!

 

But in reality there are some target shooters who would not want to be associated with live quarry shooting, fair enogh - freedom of choice.

 

I have always been of the view that those who canvas for votes to be elected to the board / Council should jolly well kee up their member facing profile when they are elected. My MP does!

 

David