BAITING A FIELD

[Catamong]

Obviously some strong views on this one, I'd like to clarify my earlier comments.

 

I've never personally baited a field, although I can quite understand why people do it, particularly the Pro's with exclusive access to a large acreage.

 

Imagine the scenario; you are running a "Sporting Agency", one day you get a call from a guy who says he has 3 or 4 very important, rich foreign clients coming to the UK for a few days, who are desperate to shoot some Pigeons.

 

Money's no object, and it's a funny time of year, with no guarantee of birds anywhere, and you know damn well that these guys wouldn't be able to hit a cows **** with a shovel from 2 feet, so the birds need to be doing a kamikaze on the end of the barrel, so what do you do..

 

You speak to your friendly Farmer who happens to have a few acres of setaside or stubble, who's only too happy to spin on a few loads of **** sweepings from his dutch barn for an appropriate inducement.

 

The end result is that everybody wins, (except the Pigeons), the guys jump back on their plane with sore shoulders and hangovers, and our "Sporting Agent" takes a trip to the cashpoint to deposit about a grand in cash for a days work.

 

Nice work, if you can get it, but don't forget guys, everybody has to earn a living, and those of us who don't earn a living from shooting woodies, (me included), shouldn't be too quick to knock those that do.

 

If it's not against the law, then good luck to those that have the initiative to do it.

 

Cat.

[henry d]

It`s a short hop from this to defra saying"That works well,general licence revoked and if they build up we`ll let a few shoot baited fields during the pigeon season"

[Pepe]

Obviously some strong views on this one, I'd like to clarify my earlier comments.

 

I've never personally baited a field, although I can quite understand why people do it, particularly the Pro's with exclusive access to a large acreage.

 

Imagine the scenario; you are running a "Sporting Agency", one day you get a call from a guy who says he has 3 or 4 very important, rich foreign clients coming to the UK for a few days, who are desperate to shoot some Pigeons.

 

Money's no object, and it's a funny time of year, with no guarantee of birds anywhere, and you know damn well that these guys wouldn't be able to hit a cows **** with a shovel from 2 feet, so the birds need to be doing a kamikaze on the end of the barrel, so what do you do..

 

You speak to your friendly Farmer who happens to have a few acres of setaside or stubble, who's only too happy to spin on a few loads of **** sweepings from his dutch barn for an appropriate inducement.

 

The end result is that everybody wins, (except the Pigeons), the guys jump back on their plane with sore shoulders and hangovers, and our "Sporting Agent" takes a trip to the cashpoint to deposit about a grand in cash for a days work.

 

Nice work, if you can get it, but don't forget guys, everybody has to earn a living, and those of us who don't earn a living from shooting woodies, (me included), shouldn't be too quick to knock those that do.

 

If it's not against the law, then good luck to those that have the initiative to do it.

 

Cat.

I do see your point.

[digger]

everybody wins ? dont think so.in your case scenario the rich guys **** off back to their country,the "sport"ing agent pockets his wedge and we are left with the reprecussions.

i cant and wont condone this just because some overpaid **** wants to pay some unsrcupulous sod to shoot fish in a barrel.if the agents cant handle it time for them to change jobs.maybe to one where they can earn a living instead of shafting us all and giving further ammunition to the anti.

but hey whatever floats your boat,enjoy clay shooting when we are next.wont be much of a market for decoying equipment when its fubar by those who should know better

[Fisherman Mike]

Will.... I agree with you to some extent but you are forgetting one fundamental thing, Modern drilling methods leave very little grain on the surface for pigeon. I am sure you have noticed that freshly seeded fields are now visited for days rather than the weeks which was common when I started decoying in the early 70,s. I cant remember the last time a farmer called me to a field because the Pigeons were ravaging his over-sow, infact I dont think one ever has. I rekon your average Chaffinch takes as much free grain these days as a woodie.

 

Also I am sure you know, as do I, Farmers who sow Thousands of acres of Cereals and these days the loss of seed to Pigeons is minimal, None of the several farms I shoot over now use gas guns during the drilling season.

 

Cranfield... You forgot the third issue.... the Moral one... So we could reason that all is fair in Love and War...

 

FM

[Deako]

Quote from digger:

 

"wont be much of a market for decoying equipment when its fubar by those who should know better..."

 

Spot on mate! Pigeon shooting equipment retailers more than anybody really do need to think of the long term problems that rash words and actions can create!

 

NO SHOOTING MEANS NO BLOODY CUSTOMERS.

 

[Catamong]

Perhaps the negative comments from a number of posters on this topic is pure sour grapes...?

 

Or, perhaps they've got a valid point to make, as I said earlier, I'm neutral on this one, sitting on the proverbial fence, and I have to ask, are the "Pro's" ruining our sport by making massive bags when we're all struggling to get into double figures on our local rape fields..??

 

I honestly can't say, but I know one thing - Pigeon numbers have definitely declined over the last couple of years in my area, (Herts/South Beds/Bucks), I thought it was just that they've all sodded off elsewhere, (up to Lincs/Cambs/Suffolk), but you guys that shoot there are also saying that numbers are down....so where have they gone..??

 

They can't all be roosting in Bicester or Biggleswade..!!

 

I honestly believe that the cause of the decline in numbers is due to too many birds being shot during their peak breeding season, i.e. June to September, over laid barley/wheat/rape stubbles, as every bird killed also usually kills whatever squabs are on the nest at the time.

 

I find it a bit strange that those that are very quick to criticise the field baiters who are shooting birds at a time of year when they are not generally breeding, are more than happy to shoot 100 over laid barley in June, when they are doing serious damage to the Pigeon population.

 

"Aha", I hear them say, "they're vermin, kill 'em when you can"..!!!

 

Enough said..??

 

Cat

[digger]

catamong,you raised a fair point when you started this topic.

id stick my neck out here and venture that only a small amount of posters on this forum shoot solely for vermin control; as in the pigeon is a sporting bird worthy of more than a numbers game and extermination at all costs.

if i didnt shoot when the farmer phoned then no shooting but he knows as well as i do that pigeons feeding on rape stubble are doing no harm.he also thanks me for going out as a human scarecrow on the hard days over winter rape.

he always asks how many ive shot and im honest if ive shot like a muppet,at least they werent feeding.if i told him id shot 378 over set aside hed ask why the hell i wasnt protecting his crops.seems the only ones preaching pigeons are vermin to be shot on sight are those who think its ok.

final thought on this,fill your boots lads,just dont call yourself sortsmen ok ? :*)

[white fox]

Whats the difference in baiting a field for pigeon and topping up feeders for pheasants in the woods for 6 months.

 

I have never baited a field for pigeon, but have baited for foxes.

 

WF

[Cranfield]

Mike, the only "moral" aspect of my shooting as I see it, is to ensure that whatever I shoot is killed as humanely as possible.

 

I am one of those that would not spend the time, or money to bait a field for pigeons.

However, I part with a four figure sum every year for someone to breed, release and feed pheasants , so that I can shoot them.

I also fly fish for stocked trout and take them home for dinner (to eat, not as guests).

So I can't really cast the first stone.

 

Its an interesting debate.

 

I don't believe pigeon numbers are falling.

The big flocks we use to see in the hard Winters are still there, but they are dispersed, due to the birds being spoilt for choice of food.

Most rape fields round me have 10-20 birds on them at any time, every hedgerow and woodland has groups of birds in them.

If you disturb them, they just move on.

 

I have mentioned before that I believe pigeons now frequent places we can't shoot, more than they ever did.

The local Parks, School grounds, gardens etc., all have quite large populations.

Didn't the last "official" count say that the numbers were rising ?

[sutty]

Well lads.

My first thoughts on this topic were very much against baiting in any form.

(and still are as far as myself goes)

However after reading the replies posted i have to be honest with myself and to some extent agree with both sides of the argument.

I can understand someone who makes a living from it wanting to give their clients "value for money" on the day. thats buisness.

And i can also understand the Sportsmens views, wishing to use fieldcraft and the like. thats part of the sport.

We all use decoys, flappers etc, isnt that a form of baiting?

The question is were does it stop and how far do we go.

If ,as was said, "baiting"is such a big sucess how long before the big shoots get the idea of using it to fill the coffers between Game seasons, my fear is, in time to come, pigeon control wont be done by guides or joe bloggs and his mate sat in a hide somewere in a rape field but by gamekeepers setting up hides on pre baited fields and then charging the same as "Driven" game days to shoot them.

that sort of money is out of my league?

The top and bottom of it amounts to protecting our sport and respecting our quarry,

for whatever reason we shoot.

personally numbers dont figure with me, yes if they are there and i get it right i will shoot them,

If there not there or i get it wrong i wont

. "just being out there" some days is good enough.

just my own view on the subject.

 

 

I will now put on my Kevlar jacket, sit under the stairs and await incoming!!

 

Regards Sutty

[lurcherboy]

What a load of ******* ********

 

Farmer has blues on the field, you are asked to follow up, end of ******* story :<

 

You bait if it will help you.

 

Stop trying to justify yourselfs. Talk to the landowner or the Beasleys.

 

Watched a field with 100'sn Sunday and spoke to a farmer who couldn't find any guns :<

 

 

You *****, get real

 

 

 

LB

[ROB REYNOLDS UK]

whats the differance if its baited or not the pigeon will end up dead if its feeding on bait or rape ,you will get your sport the farmer get one less pest every one is happy ....if any body has land with no crops on i would say its a good way to get some sport ..i wont do it my self as i have to much to go at with out baiting up ,but if needs must ,do it ..to catch a fish you bait the hook ?? whats the differance with a pigeon ??

[Fisherman Mike]

Ultimately the proof is in the pudding... Lets all start baiting and see how long WoodPigeon remain on the general list before much is made of it by the LACS.

 

LB I hope you were not referring to me as a ****... I would be dissapointed if you were

 

FM.

[Highlander]

Thought this might turn into an interesting debate…and I wasn’t wrong.

 

It would seem there’s valid opinions on both sides. We bait for other types of pests, rats, foxes, rabbits, crows etc why not for ‘the largest agricultural pest of all’? We also feed pheasants, partridges and ducks specifically for sport NOT pest control. So who’s got the argument?

 

On the one side it seems it pretty much comes down to economics, as it’s not illegal to bait for Woodpigeons if not quite in the spirit of the general licence. Notice I say Woodpigeons as pest controllers routinely bait ferals. A commercial organisation has clients who expect BIG bags. And don’t say this isn’t the case you’ve only got to read some of the posts on here, especially the ones vis a vis dove shooting in South America, to know where some so called ‘sportsmen’ are coming from. In my experience the ‘brits’ are in the main more sporting than some of our continental cousins who simply want to kill all. We also have some ‘bag men’ here in the UK who appear more interested in ‘the big boast’ than the sporting element. Think about this… if you pay say £100 for a days pigeon shooting with a guide and you shoot say 20 birds you’ve had a damn good days sport costing £5 per bird with the possibility of larger bags depending upon any number of (uncontrollable) factors. Compare that to any game shooting day where you’ll pay what £300 plus for a share of a bag costing anywhere from £18 a bird upwards. There’s also the argument for ‘sacrificial’ crops/bait to keep the birds off a valuable crop and we all shoot birds over harvested crops where no damage is being done.

 

However there’s two arguments against that really do stack up…if we allow this (baiting) to become ‘normal’ practice then we’re in danger of DEFRA stepping in and making life very different for us. There’s also the point made by one respondent that commercial game shoots might see it as a useful way of augmenting their shooting seasons and their coffers. We have to be seen as responsible in our sport, for that is what it is as almost no one on here or that I know of shoots Woodpigeons purely from a pest control point of view (The general licence does allow for some sporting element in the equation by the way). There could be the sort of nasty backlash none of us would wish to see. This also brings us to the second point against. The moral issue. Now that’s a personal one, each to his own BUT it’s is a very valid point. Killing for killing sake is impossible to support on moral grounds. If sportsmen we are then we simply cannot agree that it’s all right to accept baiting as a legitimate method of killing Woodpigeons.

 

Be happy in your sport, don’t over do it. We’re shooting wild NOT reared birds and the pot is surely limited. Over do it in any way and we’ll go the way of the commercial fishermen and others. The Woodpigeon could become like the Dodo or the Passenger Pigeon…EXTINCT and then so will we. Maybe not in our lifetime but in our childrens or grandchildrens. Take care of what we have because once it’s gone it’s gone! Think on.

[Catamong]

Highlander,

 

Some good points there, but looking at it from a point of view of "what actions do we take that cause most harm to the Pigeon population", then shooting birds in Winter over baited fields does infinitely less damage to the population than shooting big bags over laid wheat in July & August, when every bird being shot is a parent feeding young on the nest.

 

I don't like shooting over laid crops for that reason alone.

 

Cat

[Catamong]

Ultimately the proof is in the pudding... Lets all start baiting and see how long WoodPigeon remain on the general list before much is made of it by the LACS.

 

LB I hope you were not referring to me as a ****... I would be dissapointed if you were

 

FM.

I'd also be miffed if LB was referring to me as a **** - if you have to resort to insults, then don't post.

 

Cat

[Country Boy]

First you need a very enthusiastic farmer with some suitable fallow land to put your 'bait' onto.

What to use for 'bait' okay wheat should suffice.

How many ton do need to buy- 5,6,7?

How you going to distribute it (in key areas presumably) and how often.

 

Sounds like a whole lot of unecessary work to me and who the hell will pay for it all, some of you guys even quibble at buying equipment!!!

 

Then the pigeons would have to 'find' it and build numbers before it was shot but still no guarantees they would even come or stay!!!!

 

Here is some good advice: leave the farmer to get on with his job, make sure he knows you are a good scarecrow in the winter months ( surprise surprise you may even get the odd good day) and then put your decoying skills to the test in spring and summer!!!!!

 

Cheers, CB:}

[Graham20g]

Like most of youIve never done it .

too costly

time consuming

as for morality im not sure

But like the rest of you? I didnt like fox hunting with hound's BUT I stood shoulder to shoulder with them and gave my full suport in their fight for the right to continue.

In this so called free country of our's thoes involved in field sport's should support each other no matter wether we agree or not.

Wont the anties see debate's like this as a god send? you know fragmenting our rank's so let's keep our own amunition and not let them have any

We certainly dont need to be calling each other name's maturity's and solidarity is what we need !!!

 

G2g

Edited January 31, 2006 by Graham20g

[Highlander]

Wont the anties see debate's like this as a god send? you know fragmenting our rank's so let's keep our own amunition and not let them have any

 

G2g

The anti's can have as much of my ammunition as they can handle...only they won't like the way they get it B)

[Fisherman Mike]

I honestly can't say, but I know one thing - Pigeon numbers have definitely declined over the last couple of years in my area, (Herts/South Beds/Bucks), I thought it was just that they've all sodded off elsewhere, (up to Lincs/Cambs/Suffolk), but you guys that shoot there are also saying that numbers are down....so where have they gone..??

 

They can't all be roosting in Bicester or Biggleswade..!!

 

I honestly believe that the cause of the decline in numbers is due to too many birds being shot during their peak breeding season, i.e. June to September, over laid barley/wheat/rape stubbles, as every bird killed also usually kills whatever squabs are on the nest at the time.

Some good points Cat However form the latest BTO census information....

 

Wood pigeon Population 2.5 - 3.2 million pairs in summer and increasing yearly. Winter population not defined but could be as many as 4 million pairs...

 

Also I am pretty confident that both parents feed the squabs and one will continue to do so if the other is lost.

 

However,Like you I dont shoot during the summer months.. too bloody hot and the pigeons get blown really quickly... I have another life and that is Fishing and Cricket.

 

I dont need to shoot 100 birds either to have a satisfying day.. in the winter the best part is being out in the fresh air with my bins and the dogs, a hot bath and a single malt at the end of it.

 

If West Ham win at Home so much the better....If they beat Spurs or The Arsenal even better still.

 

Personally I believe that if some of our subscribers shot less they would enjoy it more and wouldnt have such a hang up about shooting scores and scores of birds.

[Cranfield]

Well done Mike, I knew I had seen somewhere that the wood pigeon population was increasing year on year.

 

"Subscribers" ? thats new one on me.

 

In all honesty, there are not many members that post on here that regularly shoot big bags (100+ birds).

Most consider 30 odd birds to be an exceptional day most of the year and a miracle in the Winter. :(

[rjimmer]

I thought that it was accepted that shooting pigeons on rape before the end of January was not doing much good to protect the crop because it will recover anyway. February onwards is when it needs protecting from pigeons, apparently.

Putting them on general license was bad enough. Next it will be a close season!

 

Prebaiting is a bit like leaving them alone until numbers build up for a big bag, not realy crop protection, is it?

Edited January 31, 2006 by rjimmer

[Catamong]

I thought that it was accepted that shooting pigeons on rape before the end of January was not doing much good to protect the crop because it will recover anyway. February onwards is when it needs protecting from pigeons, apparently.

Putting them on general license was bad enough. Next it will be a close season!

 

Prebaiting is a bit like leaving them alone until numbers build up for a big bag, not realy crop protection, is it?

You're dead right RJ, i've seen fields of rape stripped completely bare of any leaf by woodies in February, only to fully recover and be 6 feet tall by the end of June.

 

It's amazing what modern fertilisers can achieve..!!

 

Cat.

[Will Beasley]

It's amazing what modern fertilisers can achieve..!!

 

Cat.

Yeah but its the cost of the stuff that knackers the job up. Fert may well give it the boost it needs to recover from a Pigeon thrashing BUT its all got to be paid for by.....you guessed it...the farmer!

 

I must add this is certainly one of the better topics we've seen lateley on PW!! Quite interesting to see peoples views.