Poachers

[Redgum]

To be honest, some of the things I have read on this thread about dogs and people who work dogs is a bit like saying "All people who own guns just shoot at anything and everything no matter what it is and dont care if they wound it or not"

 

 

It really is as un-informed as that......shocking to see really.

Thats rubbish and paranoid, I have a labrador, she's an excellent dog, well trained, doesnt run round like an idiot nor does she bite anyone. She is excellent company and invaluable while legally shooting pigeons or game. Go back to the start of this topic and you will see were we started.

Some people own guns and do run outside of the law but thats another topic.

[Hezbear]

Good discussion. Put the legalities to one side. What are peoples thoughts on using dogs to take deer?

Pre-ban I used to run deer regularly day time with permission, lost a few good dogs through it and even considered stopping with lurchers but always end up with another dog giving off friends

[Redgum]

Pre-ban I used to run deer regularly day time with permission, lost a few good dogs through it and even considered stopping with lurchers but always end up with another dog giving off friends

when you say you lost afew good dogs is that because the deer killed them, injury or just lost em.

[Hezbear]

Injuries by hitting fences and that or turning wrong and slipping, seen some dogs that have been mauled off big stags though

[BADFEET]

Thats rubbish and paranoid, I have a labrador, she's an excellent dog, well trained, doesnt run round like an idiot nor does she bite anyone. She is excellent company and invaluable while legally shooting pigeons or game. Go back to the start of this topic and you will see were we started.

Some people own guns and do run outside of the law but thats another topic.

 

You misunderstood me, I meant running dogs in paticular......or to use I phrase I personally hate, Longdogs.

 

As I was attempting to say in a previous post, dont forget that lurcher owners have had there sport curtailed to one quarry species only through no fault of their own, while shooters can still enjoy the full range of quarry they have always done....if lurcher owners chose to still try and run the full range of quarry they previously enjoyed they place themselves outside the law (a law that no one wanted and was just the product of left wing bigots and antis)...this does not make them scum or any of the other terms I have read here on this thread.

 

They are victims of one of the most hurtful and shocking bits of legislation ever to come from parliment.

 

As I said, there is no place for violence or damage to property or leaving game laying dead, but lets keep some prospective here.

We all hunt, just pray its not your sport next.

Edited December 10, 2010 by BADFEET

[wildfowler.250]

What can you legally catch with your dog then? Assuming you had permission to take deer, hare, rabbits? Just rabbits?

 

 

ATB

[olim]

What can you legally catch with your dog then? Assuming you had permission to take deer, hare, rabbits? Just rabbits?

 

 

ATB

 

 

Yep legally just rats and rabbits

[Redgum]

You misunderstood me, I meant running dogs in paticular......or to use I phrase I personally hate, Longdogs.

 

As I was attempting to say in a previous post, dont forget that lurcher owners have had there sport curtailed to one quarry species only through no fault of their own, while shooters can still enjoy the full range of quarry they have always done....if lurcher owners chose to still try and run the full range of quarry they previously enjoyed they place themselves outside the law (a law that no one wanted and was just the product of left wing bigots and antis)...this does not make them scum or any of the other terms I have read here on this thread.

 

They are victims of one of the most hurtful and shocking bits of legislation ever to come from parliment.

 

As I said, there is no place for violence or damage to property or leaving game laying dead, but lets keep some prospective here.

We all hunt, just pray its not your sport next.

 

I have heard this side of the story so many times and it must be really hard to just have your sport ripped away from you. If shooting were banned then I would just have to do more fishing,thats me but a mate of mine who ferrets alot said he would just keep doing it if it were banned and hes a much more intelligent fellow than me.

Its down to the individual I suppose how he deals with it just as some people ( and this applies to all blood sports) are down right blood thirsty and don't care about there prey, its just something for a bit of fun.

From the very nature of running dogs it seems that the rootes are etched into the working class who don't own greal lumps of land. fox hunting on the other hand contains the same cruelty factors as hunting any other prey with dogs but because it traditionally is the sport of the landed gentry the law has been built in such away its almost impossible to prosecute anyone. Its not fair, but the world we live in isnt built on being fair, we are a very selfish species. All we can do amongst ourselves as hunters is recognise the purists from the down right criminal.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Redgum

[Hezbear]

Yep legally just rats and rabbits

I use my adults to retrieve the foxes that the farmers or keepers shoot, if the fox is wounded then the lurcher will finish it off. Pre-ban I used to take rabbit, hare, fox and deer with them but now I try to stick to the law although accidents do happen with illegal stuff flushing in front of them off the lead :look:

[Redgum]

One of my customers was out on a walk last year and her dogs ( not of working stock) flush out a Muntjac and gave it a bit of a mauling, the poor thing was still kicking a bit so she wacked it on the head with a log.It upset the women but she did the right thing, in fear of getting into trouble she put the animal in the hedge and covered it up( it sounded like a young doe). A terrible waste of some good meat.

Imagine the same situation but a lad with tats, rings and a shaved head with bunch of lurchers is discovered clubbing the animal to death( this isnt meant to say all lurcher owners are like this, just an example.){though I have met many that are }.

Its a fine line.

[Hezbear]

True enough Redgum, I rarely go out with lurcher owners now unless I've known them years or I can trust them

[BADFEET]

I have heard this side of the story so many times and it must be really hard to just have your sport ripped away from you. If shooting were banned then I would just have to do more fishing,thats me but a mate of mine who ferrets alot said he would just keep doing it if it were banned and hes a much more intelligent fellow than me.

Its down to the individual I suppose how he deals with it just as some people ( and this applies to all blood sports) are down right blood thirsty and don't care about there prey, its just something for a bit of fun.

From the very nature of running dogs it seems that the rootes are etched into the working class who don't own greal lumps of land. fox hunting on the other hand contains the same cruelty factors as hunting any other prey with dogs but because it traditionally is the sport of the landed gentry the law has been built in such away its almost impossible to prosecute anyone. Its not fair, but the world we live in isnt built on being fair, we are a very selfish species. All we can do amongst ourselves as hunters is recognise the purists from the down right criminal.

 

A great post matey, extemely level headed and well put......your last sentence is spot on.

YIS

[wildfowler.250]

Yep legally just rats and rabbits

 

I can see why a deer may be deemed unsuitable but there is very little difference between a dog catching a hare and a rabbit. Are there any loop holes around the whole hare,fox, deer thing? Just curious

[Hezbear]

Not really CZ452, all you can do is plead it was accidental and hope they accept it

[SteveoM]

I have read this topic from front to back and found it very interesting, I just hope I never have to deal with these types of issues. I believe if someone is stealing or damaging my property I have a god given right to do something about it legal or not. As for the dogs taking down deer I take it it's not a short affair and quite prolonged suffering for deer this is just cruel and out of order. I've been quite reserved with my opinion on this one as a newbie I dont want to upset anyone.

[Redgum]

I have read this topic from front to back and found it very interesting, I just hope I never have to deal with these types of issues. I believe if someone is stealing or damaging my property I have a god given right to do something about it legal or not. As for the dogs taking down deer I take it it's not a short affair and quite prolonged suffering for deer this is just cruel and out of order. I've been quite reserved with my opinion on this one as a newbie I dont want to upset anyone.

Blood sports arent about butterflies and moonbeams, the purpose is to kill your prey, hopefully as cleanly as possible. Bringing a big red stag down with a pack of dogs and then the animals throat being cut to finish the process may not sit well with many but its been away of survival for man for hundreds of years. Ok we have Tescos and the local butcher now, I eat most of what I shoot but I'm not doing it because my family are starving, Ok some is pest control but its sport and I enjoy it. There will be pigeons, pheasants, ducks and a few rabbits that will have had a slow and miserable death due to my actions with a few shotgun pellets that have penetrated their bodies. I try to be as humane as I can but suffering will always run alongside bloodsports and thats a fact.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Redgum

[SteveoM]

Blood sports arent about butterflies and moonbeams, the purpose is to kill your prey, hopefully as cleanly as possible. Bringing a big red stag down with a pack of dogs and then the animals throat being cut to finish the process may not sit well with many but its been away of survival for man for hundreds of years. Ok we have Tescos and the local butcher now, I eat most of what I shoot but I'm not doing it because my family are starving, Ok some is pest control but its sport and I enjoy it. There will be pigeons, pheasants, ducks and a few rabbits that will have had a slow and miserable death due to my actions with a few shotgun pellets that have penetrated their bodies. I try to be as humane as I can but suffering will always run alongside bloodsports and thats a fact.

 

The previous post portrays the deer were left to die in a field with no cut to the throat. This is not a "way of survival" FACT. This is not killing prey for the pot FACT and in my opinion this method of hunting deer is not sport. In regards to shooting you said it your self "you try to be as humane as possible" as im sure 99% of genuin shooters do. With regards to big red whats more humane stalking the animal and taking it down with a high powered rifle or chasing it down with a big pack of dogs. Its my opinion i'm fine with most blood sports but the deer with dogs is a step to far for me and i dont regard it as a sport or humane.

[Redgum]

The previous post portrays the deer were left to die in a field with no cut to the throat. This is not a "way of survival" FACT. This is not killing prey for the pot FACT and in my opinion this method of hunting deer is not sport. In regards to shooting you said it your self "you try to be as humane as possible" as im sure 99% of genuin shooters do. With regards to big red whats more humane stalking the animal and taking it down with a high powered rifle or chasing it down with a big pack of dogs. Its my opinion i'm fine with most blood sports but the deer with dogs is a step to far for me and i dont regard it as a sport or humane.

I don't hunt with dogs my friend, I just try to see things from all sides. Hunting with dogs was happening long before the advent of the gun. Whats acceptable to you will not be acceptable to many others believe me. And the age old arguement, a fit and healthy deer will out run most dogs, if not kill a few in the chase, the deer can't out run a bullet.

[Hezbear]

As for the dogs taking down deer I take it it's not a short affair and quite prolonged suffering for deer this is just cruel and out of order. I've been quite reserved with my opinion on this one as a newbie I dont want to upset anyone.

Steve if they are good dogs the course can be over in a matter of 30 seconds then the deer despatched, It's second rate dogs that do the damage. I have seen a shooter kicked off the land for leaving a wounded deer amongst other animals and it was my dogs that had to find them to put them down , you haven't upset this dog man mate

Edited December 12, 2010 by Hezbear

[latchy]

I have read this topic from front to back and found it very interesting, I just hope I never have to deal with these types of issues. I believe if someone is stealing or damaging my property I have a god given right to do something about it legal or not. As for the dogs taking down deer I take it it's not a short affair and quite prolonged suffering for deer this is just cruel and out of order. I've been quite reserved with my opinion on this one as a newbie I dont want to upset anyone.

 

what about when they shot but not killed and get away wounded.. surley thats a more painfull and slower death for them

[oneshotkiller]

Steve if they are good dogs the course can be over in a matter of 30 seconds then the deer despatched, It's second rate dogs that do the damage. I have seen a shooter kicked off the land for leaving a wounded deer amongst other animals and it was my dogs that had to find them to put them down , you haven't upset this dog man mate

 

 

Well said that man , a good dog used by a man who knows his quarry and terrain and if his dog is up to the job is a joy to behold .

A good dog will have a deer down and dispatched in the blink of a eye .

 

AS LONG AS ITS THE RIGHT DOG FOR THE JOB !!!!

[DIVERD]

One of my permissions is poached from time to time, in fact most of them probably are. To be honest, we dont really mind. If the poacher just takes one for the pot, leaves no marks or damage and we are not really sure that have been there then i have almost no problem. I would rather they did not poach the permissions i worked hard to get and maintain, but if they are invisible then i will loose no sleep over it. Luckily much of my permissions are miles away and you would pass miles of poachable land before finding it, and most have an owner or keeper nearby who notices everything, but my close one does attract attention of poachers

 

Those true countrymen have been here forever and are part of the countryside. One day we met one, he was "bird watching" and we chatted away, mentioned that from time to time we do get poached and that as long as no damage is done and they do not pillage the land then we would turn a blind eye. Since then i am sure he still picks away, but we never see a sign of him or his activities, and this is part of the skill.

 

But what we have now is a different breed of vandal. They are not poachers, it is just part of what they do. They are theives and vandals, simple as that. It is easy to thrash about in a 4x4 killing. i could do this in my 4x4 and i could have a great week or so, and then that would be it, i would loose the permission and even if i did not there would be nothing left to hunt or control.

 

I dont have a working dog (i have a pet dog) , and have never worked one, though i have seen it a couple of times and it is both skillful and facinating to watch. i would not shoot the poachers dog, it would cause more problems. Speak to the local wildlife cop, they are pretty good, defend the ground with vehical stoppers of other types i would certainly try this, and make every effort before doing anything you may regret.

 

just my take on it.

[Quist]

It comes down to this: They know where you live and you don't know where they live.

So, you, your loved ones, friends, livestock or property are being put on the line if you shoot their dogs.

Far, far better to get the police involved, useless as they are, and they are, and hope that their involvement will encourage the poachers to seek quieter areas.

It's not ideal, its not justice but its not as risky.

[HDAV]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-12020741

[BADFEET]

"Every year there are hundreds of deer which are lawfully and professionally culled by trained deer stalkers" :lol:

 

Always makes me smile when you read bull like the above in that BBC article.....they should add "who will take any ****** for a shot as long as they pay enough money"