David BASC Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Dear all, I would welcome your thoughts on the following. At BASC we get lots of calls from people wanting pigeon / rabbit shooting. If we have any vacancies within our clubs or syndicates we send them the details, but if not our advice can only be ' go call on you local farms'. To assit in this BASC have been advertising in the farming press encouraging farmers to let people shoot over their land - provided they are insured. Now I accept that we all want to protect our shooting rights - but if you got permission on a new farm, say 250 acres - would you share it or would you want to keep it all to yourself? Would it be better for the farmer , and other shooters, if you set up a small club of say 6 or 8 of you rather then keeping it all to yourself? How would you like to see BASC getting more shooting opened up? How could you guys with shooting help people? I hope that this generates an interesting and productive exchange. Best wishes David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24joy Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 I cannot speak for others, but the shoots I use have been hard work to get and have taken alot of my time and money to get, the few i have that is. This said how do I feel about giving a share of my shoots to someone on a plate. . How do I know we will get along. When I go out most of the time it's the quite and going at my own pace that gives me the peace, and you do seem to see more interesting things while out when your on your own. Another piont that would concern me is if the shoot was over shot, and could these people, in time invite others to shoot on the land, starts with just a one off for his best mate who's down for the weekend and so on. Safety as well would be an issue for me, when out at night would there always be good communication as to who was out on the land, and would it mean that I would then have to check in with others to let them know I was going out on to the land that was first used by just me. Alot to think about good thread though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupe312 Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 i can see both points of veiw of people putting in the work to get the farms to shoot ect. i do wish more people would share land, that the trouble i'm have been to 21 local farms and nothing because of either people already shoot on in / or game shoots or various other small excuses. from my point of veiw if some one due to hard work and a little luck has do some land they should be willing to share with like minded people. i think BASC should get more involed and help to open up the sport and promote it. shooting/hunting kept me out of trouble and mischeif as a kid, and i would hope it would do the for my children. Even after asking a number of time for help finding land nothing has come to hand, i have one farm i got myself over 30miles away from hope and i got it cause i did a load of work for him for free.( environmental consultant by trade) i don't mind helping any one and favours always return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNAKEBITE Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Good thread! From my own personnal experiences I can say that sharing a shoot in a "syndicate" or "club" can be a bit of a handfull, and that is with 3 friends! You have different paces, agendas and lord alone knows what else! You have to have a high level of communication between the people involved and be able to trust them. Luckily all the "problems" I have encountered have been dealt with in an adult manner and easily resolved. As a result I am more than happy with my situation. This has left me mainly going out alone, which is fine by me as any quirks I display are not inflicted on anyone else. However nothing beats all meeting up and going on a more social shoot occasionally. What can work I imagine is Whoever "gets the shoot" dictates the terms and conditions that the others must follow. He in return follows their rules on their shoots. I'll add a few more "ideas" when I am able to articulate them properly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Landowners/Farmers are rightly very concerned about who goes on their land. When it comes to shooting, this is even more so. Safety and security are the main factors. Satisfy these concerns and you are more than halfway there. I am a member of a Pigeon Shooting Club and therefore "share" land. However, I would not shoot on the same Farm, at the same time with any other members, for safety and security reasons. Also, if a gate gets left open, it won't be my fault. If someone is shooting too close to the road, it won't be me. If crops are driven on, it won't be me. Etc. As I shoot midweek only, I rarely see anyone else. I also have access to land that only I shoot. Would I be willing to make this available to anyone else ? The answer is "No", unless they were my guest and I was present. A lot of us have lost shared shooting over the years, because of the irresponsible actions of other shooters. Thats not fair behaviour by the Landowner I know, but its a bit like when your Mum use to hit all the kids, "to make sure I get the right one". The BASC could maintain a data base of any Landowners that need assistance with vermin control and members who are available, in a specific area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNAKEBITE Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 I also have access to land that only I shoot.Would I be willing to make this available to anyone else ? The answer is "No", unless they were my guest and I was present. Sort of fits in with my "follow the shoot leaders rules" theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 My take on this is although pigeons and rabbits are pest species, they are not infinite and neither is the shooting on the land, better for the farmer perhaps, but it only takes one guy to be greedy and they can destroy the shooting. The aim of shooting is not to eradicate, it's conservation as well. Also with unknown quantity, on your permission risk of damage is out of your hands, perhaps they won't pick up cartridges and farmer will kick you all off their land. Once someone is in the club it's hard to get rid of them. With 6-8 people you start to need organising and admin, this takes time and money, which you wouldn't have to do if you just kept it to yourself. Don't get me wrong, you may have read my posts on the site about encouraging others to introduce people to shooting, I myself have brought no less than 8 new people shooting this year already, of this number 2 have shot their first ever game bird and the remainder have been successful at shooting clays. I've also cooked pheasant and mallard for over 20 people, so far this year some of whom would not otherwise try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Dear All, Some great feedback here thanks very much. I am in a club who originally had one 50 acre wood, now we have three farms in the same area as well - so our shooting extends to about 200 acres. There are 20 of us in the club and we pay £50 a year each to be a member. (it is up to all of us to sort out our insurance) We have formal agreements with the farmers which include where we can park, points of acess, etc. It works well and even with so many of us it is very rare that we meet- some of us work 9-5 Monday to Firday, some work a three shift system, some work a three weeks on two weeks off type system etc. The benefit is that is any of our landowners has a sudden problem with pigeons, at least one or two of us can get there within 24 hrs - if I had all the land to myself- I may not be bale to get there to shoot for up to 5 days. Having researched this issue with farmers, most do not just want to be on a database that anyone can access, what they want is a degree of stability - and a little bit of income to boot! BASC will continue to develop shooting opportunities via farmers- but I suspect that many farmers will want to let the shooting to a group of individuals in a 'club' format rather than to an individual. Furhter thoughts welcome, and thank you again. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 "Having researched this issue with farmers, most do not just want to be on a database that anyone can access, what they want is a degree of stability - and a little bit of income to boot!" My suggestion may not have been clear. I would expect BASC to arrange introductions between compatible applicants, rather like a Marriage Bureau, rather than just have Farmers details published. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Sorry - yes your point is a good one - and yes that is certainly somthing that at BASC we want to develop but I wanted to make it clear that it is very unlikely that all farmers would welcome individual shooters. Some will, of course, some I know of will not a have a club on their land for any money - but are happy to have 10 plus people shooting over their land! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 I suppose this all depends of the type of shooting that is going on. I have found that being in a small friendly syndicate offers its problems, such as correct management of the land. We concentrate moetly on Rabbit / Fox and range from airgun to shotgun to rifles. Because of these differences I find that the shared land is being over shot. I certainly would not want to welcome any more to our syndicate with the amount of land we currently share, which ranges up to roughly 300 acres of mixed sizes. I would be more than happy invite a friend along or one of the syndicate members have a friend along, but only on a one off basis. Land is so hard to get, I wouldn't be comfortable letting just anyone out just as the land owner wouldnt be. Here in Brighton and Mid-Sussex we have many many well known syndicate shoots that can span 1000's of acres. They arent interested whhat so ever, in allowing a competant gun out for a few Rabbits, for the sport or not. In my opinion, around here anyway, you have either got to be part of the tight nit farming community or have serious money to pay in to a syndicate or paid shoot. We have just far too many people living in a small area. The farmers are not prepared to let everyone on, as right they shouldnt. Unlike the Golf Courses who seem to let every Tom **** and Harry on and at the same time. Wheres the safety in that. Comes to something when two guns can walk past whilst lamping and say "evening"! Until these vast Land Owners and Syndicates are prepared to allow people such as myself out on thier land for a few sporting Rabbits or Fox. I don't think things will change to much. Land comes to those who are patient, prepared and curteous, taking time and much effort. Perhaps the only thing I can offer is to suggest a greater advertising campaigne to try and get land owners to be more forthcoming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Given this is a pigeon shooting based forum - as far as pigeons go I reckon it could work well if it was properly organised and people were willing to be directed to a location that works for the whole group rather than the individual. Last monday was the first time I had seen how desperate arrable farmers are to clear pigeons off their crops. My newest permission is near 400 acres, and the owner sometimes has three groups of shotties triangulated, a few fields apart which keeps the flock moving on those days. Most of his crop has been ravaged, I guess there's little chance of getting many groups of shotties on his land during weekdays. I have to say that the ball is in the other court for most other types of shooting, where the shooter is often privileged to have permission to wander over someones land with a gun that has much more range than a shottie, has a sound moderator, frequently after dark. As most of the other replies suggest, I would be very reluctant to SHARE my permissions, but would be glad to take a companion with me. Agreeing to share a venue could well see things go titsup - it only takes a moment to do something that displeases (sp) a landowner,and loses you a valuable extremely hard to come by piece of land. However - I have heard of several people having access to thousands of acres more than they could adequatly cover - and if I were one of those I think I would entertain "guest shooters" that I had got to know first, as opposed to ones that came along as a result of offering to help "anyone" if you get my meaning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNAKEBITE Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 A lot can depend on what the landowner thinks. He may not want your guests on his land, after all if something happens who does he blame? E.G. I let my Insurance lapse not intentionally but it is out of date, I go shooting with Joe Bloggs who has invited me along for a days pest control on the rabbits. In a lapse of concentration I put a pellet through the windscreen of the farmers brand new 4x4. I am to blame but who pays? Most of our shoots will not mind a visitor on a one off basis (written permission?) but to constantly do it would invite a serious drubbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 cant help thinking this will make more money for the basc than it will for any farmer.and another point is when and if this bird flu hits.all game shooting will be gone. what are these shooters going to move onto. had a few shoot leaders approaching farmers with talk of buying up pigeon shooting for next year, is the basc are trying to get one step ahead?. i just cant see this being of any benefit to the shooters who can only shoot on a weekend, (to many guns on not enough land) as all the best shooting will go to the midweek guns, (ex game shooters) and how much would we have to pay for the privilege, basc membership=?, cost of shoot, per farm or per area=?, shooting safety course,( because you will have to have it) as its run by the basc=?. lamping on same farms=?. fox shooting certificate=?. i think a lot of the basc members should take a long hard look at the direction this organization are taking before they part with any money for membership. unless of course you have endless amounts of folding stuff. do not let the pigeon shooting go to the highest bidder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Quite valid commemnts and opinion Mark. I hadnt given thought to what might happen if Bird Flu hits here. One thing I can be sure of though, I will never pay for the privilage to shoot, no matter what. All this talk of paying farmers for rabbit shooting etc is concerning. Im all for saving our sport but not buying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Some good replies here - in general- Axe - yes BASC will be advertising to farmers to encourage them to let people shoot over thier land. The issue with game shoots being too protective is a very interesting point - I will discuss this with some BASC syndicates and some Sporting agents to see if we can open up some game shoots to rabbit / pigeon shooting. Mark - it seems to me that no mater what I say you will have a pop at it - you seem to have a big downer on BASC! Where oh where did I say BASC were looking to make money out of this? As I have said before, I will make no apology for trying to secure more shooting opportunities for my members. I guess your association is doing much more than BASC to open up and secure shooting opportunities for their members free of charge- who are they? Yep - lots of people have had lots of shooting for free- and if that can continue then so be it! But guys the big word in farming at the moment is Diversification- as the income from agriculture goes down farmers will look to increase their income from other areas - so be prepared. Would you pay a few quid to keep the shooting on your favourite patch or would you rather see it tunrned into a car park, or timber yard or some other commercial venture that would stop your shooting. Bird Flu - can't see all game shooters becoming pigeon and rabbit shooters over night for one thing. Secondly, if AI does hit then there may well be movement restrictions in the countryside along the lines of those that were introduced during Foot & Mouth - so no one will go shooting! Again, further constructive coments welcome. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 I will never pay for the privilage to shoot, hi axe. but some will mate, and pay well just to shoot a couple of days a year. ( whatever birds it is) sorry but i just cant see this helping anyone who is finding it it hard to make a living. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranfield Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Mark is only one of many who visit this Forum, that have little time for the BASC. I don't think he is promoting any Association on here, or suggesting that someone else is doing more to get shooting for shooters, than the BASC. Although in fairness, on their past record, that wouldn't be hard. "Diversification" has been high on Farmers agendas for many, many years, not just now. Renting farm buildings for light industry, coarse fishing and trout lakes, grazing and stabling, caravans stored in orchards, etc. etc. In my opinion, if the BASC, as part of their communication with Farmers policy, starts suggesting to them that they can gain an income from their pigeon shooting, you will not gain (nor retain), many friends from the pigeon shooting fraternity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Thanks for your input Cranfield I have no doubt that there are BASC knockers out there - indeed, I could probably write a list of them based on past threads - but that would not be useful would it? As has been said on this forum before - if you want to set up a thread knocking BASC then do so, lets not hi-jack other threads - all agreed? Lets get back to the point. The issue remains - there are people out there (including BASC members) who are looking for shoting. Should we as shooters / shooting organisations help them? (Ithink we should) If so how? What could / should BASC do - if anything. Yes diversification has been with us for some time but it is certainly moving higher up the agenda and we would all be fools to ignore the changes that are on- going in the agricultural sector. Paying for pigeon shooting? there are guides out there charging how much for a days pigeon shooting? £50, £100 more? Do farmers let this shooting for nothing? As I said - great if you get all your shooting FOC - but what will you do if somone comes along and offers the farmer / land owner some cash..... Times may change and we all need tochange with them do we not. Cheers David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P03 Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Good thread guys. Some interesting thoughts but spare one for the farmers. They are trusting you on their land, near their families, with a FIREARM. The last thing they want is a bunch of blokes they don't know running around with weapons, so its not surprising they are reluctant to give permission and, that having got hard won permission, shooters are reluctant to share. P03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Where oh where did I say BASC were looking to make money out of this? hello David basc.( and a little bit of income to boot!) this was the line you used. i dont think for one minute the basc would be taking the brunt of any costs incurred for this, or am i wrong. you asked for opinions then go onto say that iam basc bashing for not agreeing with you. seems like when anyone disagrees with anybody from the basc they are having a pop. its a forum.i did not see members only required to post. (I guess your association is doing much more than BASC to open up and secure shooting opportunities for their members free of charge- who are they?) i find my own thank you, as for insurance i get a better deal from others at a lower cost than you offer. basc is far from perfect, if it was i would join. but more than anything it is attitudes like your own that send me else were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axe Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Thanks for listening David, I do feel that the Game Shoots are very protective. All that I have approached bar one has been very quick to say no. Yet they hold some of the largest areas of land around us. I'll let you know how I get on with the one I mentioned in my email. I am a little concerned on where this will go though. I wouldnt want to have to pay extra subscription to be part of a list who is offered local shooting. Is it wrong to think that I would expect my standard BASC membership to cover this? If farmers are to expect a revenue for pigeon or vermin shooting, then penultimately this would have the reverse effect and kill our sport. I for one am not prepared neither can I afford to spend large amounts of money for the right to shoot. Just my opinions of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel b3 Posted February 16, 2006 Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 david basc , will you be encouraging farmers to charge shooters for carrying out pest control ? , i shoot on 8 farms plus several other bits of associated land , i have on several occasions been offered cash from the farmers to cover my petrol/cartridge costs ,i've never accepted the money as i feel our arrangements may then become a financial agreement and less friendly , i take approximately twenty shooters / non shooters per year out for a day or two and several of them now have sgc and land of their own but would i share , NOPE , it's taken me a long time to get my shooting and to build trust with the farmers , it costs me a fortune every year in , running a 4x4 , cartridges , snares , ferrets, nets , mole traps and poisons, and my time and hard work etc so i wouldn't take the chance of someone i hardly knew messing things up for me on their first time out alone, i'll gladly take someone out for a day but i would never just give them a free hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Good point PO3 - trust is very important and must not be underestimated on either side- I think we should all remember this when seeking permission - whether we intend to pay for it or not. Mark - thanks - good debate is great and happy for you to disagree and offer constructive comment. Like BASC I too am not perfect! The bit of cash to boot comment was aimed at farmers not BASC . Yes BASC are taking the financial brunt of this - we are spending over £6000 advertising in the farming press encouraging farmers to let insured shooters onto thier land- PO3's comment is relevent here re trust. - sorry if you feel my attitude is off puting it is not meant to be - but I do react badly to what I see as unfounded accusation (BASC are only doing this to make money - BASC are doing this so they can run a safety course , suggesting that BASC is off course......) If you have specific concerns about BASC then make specific points and i will do my best to answer them - but please lets do this on another thread - agreed? Please keep the comments coming in about shooting opportunities - it is important as it could well influence how BASC takes this project forward. Thanks all. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 16, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2006 Mel b3 I would encourage farmers and shooters to have an agreement that satisfies both. If a shooter wants to pay and the farmer wants to get paid - (be it in cash, booze or work) then so be it People like you who are prepared to go the extra mile to help the farmer AND new shooters are very valuable to the sport. I bet even if somone did offer your farmers cash they would probably turn them away! But those shooters that start to take thier shooting & thier landowners forgranted...... D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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