Glenshooter Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 BASC are useless!!! I used to be with BASC when I first started applying for my firearms license, I had some trouble with Merseyside police not giving me certain calibres (They also said they wasnt giving me a centrefire but came back with .22-250) and having ridiculous conditions on my license! Even though I had alot of experience and good cause for needing certain firearms. So I rang up BASC North west firearms department, spoke to a guy there, cant remember his name but I told him about my circumstances and he replied with " Oh I used to work at Merseyide police firearms department and I sat across the desk from Bob (Head FLO) and I am very good friends with him so I cant really help you", thats when I left BASC plus they are also money grabbers! I am now with the NGO, as they cover Deer stalking i.e. taking clients out etc. Plus very good for finding out changes in legislation, along with helping prospective keepers look for work. You sound very negative especially when it seems that BASC got you a good result. They also said they wasnt giving me a centrefire but came back with .22-250) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 SACS do not put up on their web a copy of their Key Facts or a full policy summary or a copy of the full policy wording, so frankly its a bit tricky to tell exactly what you are insured for, what the policy endorsements are, what excess may apply, what restrictions may apply to cover or claims and what, if any warrants apply to the policy. I do know it covers hunting, hacking and general horse use which the BASC policy does not To the best of my knowledge they are still using NFU Mutual and if this is the case them the policy cover / application limits are likely to be similar to those I list above for the current NGO policy. Frankly if an insurance policy has all sorts of limits on it, and that’s why its cheap – I don’t see that as a problem at all – PROVIDED the organization that’s trying to sell you it is up front about all the restrictions, and don’t try to make out their cheap product is the same as a more expensive one! Anyway, the main thing is to join something! David David, I have recently joined the SACS and I can assure you that their insurance policy does include just about everything that the BASC policy covers (Including up to £100,000 of legal coverage), the only difference is that the overall price is under half of that charged by the BASC! I did think about joining the BASC but to be quite honest the price being double that of other "Shooting Organisations" put me right off! Sorry but that (I believe) is what many other shooters are now finding where they are all having to tighten their belts to keep up with the economic climate that we are all in and why the CASC are likely to start losing their members to other organisations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I`m racking my brains to try to remember where exactly the NGO was when push came to shove with the media debate surrounding the last two national firearm related incidents. Ah! Yes. I remember now. Absolutely nowhere to be seen. Caught completely flat footed with nothing prepared and no facility to deliver it even if they did. The NGO,SACS and any others you can think of are the equivalent of the Hatsan in the world of shooting protection and insurance. Attractive at first and cheap to buy but garaunteed to let you down in the long run. Frenchieboy wrongly points out that "the only difference ( Between BASC and SACS insurance.)is that the overall price (of membership) is under half of that charged by BASC." It`s only half the price because you only get half the service! Lets not confuse those compelled to take the cheap option through financial circumstances with those who are just plain short sighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I`m racking my brains to try to remember where exactly the NGO was when push came to shove with the media debate surrounding the last two national firearm related incidents. Ah! Yes. I remember now. Absolutely nowhere to be seen. Caught completely flat footed with nothing prepared and no facility to deliver it even if they did. The NGO,SACS and any others you can think of are the equivalent of the Hatsan in the world of shooting protection and insurance. Attractive at first and cheap to buy but garaunteed to let you down in the long run. Frenchieboy wrongly points out that "the only difference ( Between BASC and SACS insurance.)is that the overall price (of membership) is under half of that charged by BASC." It`s only half the price because you only get half the service! Lets not confuse those compelled to take the cheap option through financial circumstances with those who are just plain short sighted. If I am to concede that you only get half the service (Which I would be willing to do) maybe you could elaborate on which half of the service you do not get please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webber Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 BASC have over 130 employees working to support and protect the shooting that we enjoy; no other shooting or country sports organisation comes close by a massive factor. Some organisations claim to do all sorts, but how well do they actually do it? With a hand full of people how can they? BASC may be the more expensive option, but when it comes down to bang for your buck, BASC win hands down, with no other credible competitor coming close. If all you want is insurance, and don't care too much about what is contained in the small print there are a number of organisations keen to relieve you of your cash, provide insurance and not much else.. However if you want to support shooting, do your bit to ensure that we keep the right to go shooting, and have something to shoot at, there is only one credible choice; BASC. webber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 When pusg really comes to shove lets see how effective the organisations really are.If politicians decide to shove all shotguns onto section 1,there wont be anything ANY of the organisations can do about it.I'll admit,that if it wasn't for the organisations we would probably be in a worse state than we are now,hence the 'damage limitation',but lets not kid ourselves here,we always concede more ground than we take,by a considerable margin,and it will continue to be so sadly.The more we concede,the less we're left with,until following another lunatic spree,we're left with nothing to concede.We all say we care,but obviously not enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 When pusg really comes to shove lets see how effective the organisations really are.If politicians decide to shove all shotguns onto section 1,there wont be anything ANY of the organisations can do about it.I'll admit,that if it wasn't for the organisations we would probably be in a worse state than we are now,hence the 'damage limitation',but lets not kid ourselves here,we always concede more ground than we take,by a considerable margin,and it will continue to be so sadly.The more we concede,the less we're left with,until following another lunatic spree,we're left with nothing to concede.We all say we care,but obviously not enough. Some truth here indeed. But what is great about what BASC do is that they lobby, interact with, encourage, inform politicians about the benefits of shooting by using professional means. And this includes educated and informed staff, a media centre that allows BASC and hence shooters to take on the anti shooters at their own game - remembering that 'what's her face' in the ban guns movement is married to a labour MP or ex MP. Our enemies are well connected, articulate and cunning. We need to be as well equipped. I despair when I hear people moaning about the BASC's media centre, although a lot less people do so now following Cumbria when the BASC were recognised as the best organisation to take on the media onslought. And didn't they do a great job. Mike Eveleigh stands out in my mind as being excellent. As so he should, having been in the police for over 30 years so he understands the 'police' perspective. And I am professionally involved in media and communications as a bit of background to my opinion. And I don't know who else had got even close to the resources as the BASC. And that is in addition to all the other member benefits as well, insurance and a help desk who can help and advise with almost any shooting question or problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Frenchieboy, I`ve just had a look at SACS website just to see what they actually purport to offer and was rather surprised at what I saw. I understand that an amatuer looking website is no real measure of a groups effectiveness but I wonder how many people are aware that SACS, by its own admission clearly stated at the top of its website opening page, exists to support a disturbingly wide range of fieldsports in Scotland and Northern Ireland ONLY. It makes no claims to offer any political or other benefits, apart from insurance,to people living in England or Wales. So, rather than a long list of services offered by BASC and not the others in answer to your question, I give you just one. BASC offers a comprehensive service to the English and the Welsh. SACS does`nt. I see you live in the beautiful north of ENGLAND. Can you see how that might be a bit short sighted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I have asked for a copy of the SACS policy on more than one occasion and been totally ignored, maybe Frenchieboy they sent you a copy when you joined (they should have done so under FSA rules) The level of cover and activities covered are one thing - what other terms are on the policy? What excess is on the policy (that will be in the policy wording) What limits are there to making claims if there are other insurances in play ( that will be in the policy wording) What warrants are on the policy that could prevent a payout ( that will be in the full policy wording) Without the full policy wording how will you know what you are covered for? If all you are getting is insurance for £30 -and think that’s a great deal, then think again, BASC offer more than just insurance, the insurance offering with BASC costs you £10. The rest is spend delivering on our 5 strategic objectives. As has been said BASC has: A full time media team A full time political lobbying team A full time firearms team A full time game shooting and gamekeeping team A full time woodpigeon team A full time stalking team A full time wildfowling team A full time gundog team A full time airgun team 5 regional Centers 3 Country Centers 10 magazines a year for members So I guess you get quite a bit extra for your additional £30 or so But the proof of the pudding is in the eating... Where were SACS and others when Cumbria broke? Where were SACS and others when the Open General licenses got redrafted? Where were SACS and others when firearms licensing was being reviewed in Westminster with the HASC? Where were SACS and others when costal access was being debated? Where were SACS and others when the Wildlife and Natural Environment Bill was being consulted? No where it site as I recall becaue they dont have the resources to step up to the mark on the bigger issues. I have to say the NGO project training operational police on shooting and shooters is an excellent project, well done them, but there is much more to keeping shooting safe that needs to be done. Over 50 government consultations last year on issues that could have an impact on Shooting, BASC responded to ALL of them- how many were responded to by the other organizations?-er not many... Who really WAS representing shootings interests in parliament? BASC can deliver the extra, important work because we have the resources so to do, take these resources away from BASC by jumping to a cheap offering will not help shooting in my view. But its up to you £30 for insurance and not much else or £66 (soon payable by monthly installments) for the full package - which one give you better value for you and for shooting? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 This is the only video that I saw after the Cumbria shootings. Was it made by B.A.S.C.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Funny I saw BASC on the news and heard them on the radio.... Anyhows this old insurance chestnut keeps popping up; and the answer is that if you just want insurance only go and see an insurance broker or Clayman and you can get a policy for about a tenner. If you want to support shooting and a shooting organisation then join BASC for a year and at a cost of less than a tank of fuel. For me it was the insurance that covered shooting abroad, the DSC course they ran locally to me, the running deer and boar days they put on at Bisley, the media profile they achieved and lobbying conducted post Cumbria, the firearms advice "I" have personally had to recently call upon and finally because David BASC is the only shooting association representative I know of who comes on these forums and who is entirely hands on and proactive in his assistance and support for shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Funny I saw BASC on the news and heard them on the radio.... David BASC is the only shooting association representative I know of who comes on these forums and who is entirely hands on and proactive in his assistance and support for shooters. Mungler, I do strongley agree with your comment's about David appearances on shooting forums, he must be the only one who does but is it not part of his job? He must get a bit fed up when he should be out enjoying himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 As all calls to our firearms team are recorded, I would love to look into this accusation. How long ago was this? I know the member of BASC staff you are talking about, he is an ex FLO from Merseyside. As deerstalkerlunt is online, maybe he can reply to this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) Making films weeks after the event are all well and good, and of course helps get the message across to those who watch Field Sports TV or who go on the CA web site...i.e. those who are already on message with shootings story. Will that keep shooting safe? Preaching to the converted? Yes I know You Tube is out there but how many hits has this excellent film had compared to the BBC News viewing figures in the 72 hours post Cumbria? But what was more important was the live national TV and live national radio interviews we gave on the day and the days after, getting the message across to the wider public. We did not see may reps for the other organizations queuing up to go live on BBC2 against Jeremy Paxton!! BASC was the lonely Voice of Shooting and we were there because our loyal members pay the extra £30 or so that funds the expert staff and resources that means we ARE there when the chips are down, so I think ALL shooters should jolly well thank BASC members for doing the RIGHT thing and helping fund BASC. Of course the NGO and others pay their part in other ways, as I have said before, and some of the local member events these others run and some of the training courses are great value, all part of the mix. But face facts BASC costs more because if deliver more as part of the membershiop package and in terms of fighting for shooting. I know its been tough money wise and there are those who cant afford the £66 in one go, hence the move the phased payments, now anyone can afford the BASC membership package, If say CA, NGO BASC all charged the same amount of say £70 which one would you join? Others will keep selling on price alone even slashing their joining fee in half to attract more members- but if you can only sell on price and can only sell memberships if you slash your prices, I think the message is clear and have little else on offer I guess. David Edited February 13, 2011 by David BASC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) David, Who was the other bloke on the Paxman interview..the one in the pinstripe suit? I never saw any of the news live that day, I was at work. ps...stop typing too fast to many spelling mistakes Edited February 13, 2011 by BlaserF3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerstalkerlunt Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 As all calls to our firearms team are recorded, I would love to look into this accusation. How long ago was this? I know the member of BASC staff you are talking about, he is an ex FLO from Merseyside. He certainly would not have said he can’t help you just because he knows the FLM - the BASC firearms team knows ALL the FLM's in the UK for goodness sake. As with any story there are always two sides. I remember one poster years ago claimed BASC had failed him as he had applied for a .22rf and been knocked back and BASC's response to him was 'get an airgun'. What actually happened was the he had got a new permission on a golf course, and wanted to use 22rf- the police were a bit wary and were dragging their feet over a site visit, so our guidance ot the member was that while we worked with him to get the 22rf sorted he could still go on his new permission to control the rabbets using an airgun, that ay he would keep his permission until, rather than not turn up at all and risk loosing his new permission. Decisions on firearms cases are taken based on the information the member has given us, but as I have said before, I accept that we may well not get it right 100% of the time, but we do try to, and I know we get it right the vast majority of times, Organizations DO make a difference in how the shooting laws come about in the UK. Remember if it was not for BASC for example, woodpigeons would probably be subject to a shooting season. To answer the other point, as to why there is not just one single shooting organization, there will always be specialist shooting organizations representing their part of the sport, especially target shooting like the CPSA, NRA and NSRA – none of whom look after live quarry shooting. There are others that will spring up simply because they don’t like how the existing organization is doing things, such as SACS, NGO and the Sportsman’s Association for example. No organization is perfect! David It was around August 2008 or maybe june/july ish, Im not sure was a while ago, I was at the Northern school of Game and wildlife last year when a BASC guy came in to talk about BASC and this was brought up by my lecturer but was dismissed straight away! The basc guy kept changing the subject, I will say BASC is not popular with people working in countryside management or game keeping! I am not lying if thats what your trying to say and trust me he DID say that! Plus he didn't say he knew him, he said he was very good friends with him as he used to work across the desk from him! I am no longer with merseyside police so it is no longer a problem, plus I am no longer with BASC I am with NGO so I wont ever have a problem like this again! The only reason I got what I wanted on my license was due to me living in Cumbria at college, I went into Cumbria Firearms department and within a hour they had sorted it with Merseyside, so him not helping me at all is a utter farce, if a different firearms department agreed with me and gave Merseyside a ####ing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerstalkerlunt Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 You sound very negative especially when it seems that BASC got you a good result. BASC didn't get me anything! Merseyside police put that on there not realising! As above I took this to Cumbria's Firearms department in Penrith and they rang Merseyside to sort it all out, along with other issues! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Blaser, Thanks for the spell check, I think i have corrected the 4 errors. Mike Eveleigh was interviews by JP within 24hrs of the event, live on BBC Newsnight. Other BASC staff were live on TV and radio from London covering Sky, BBC, ITC Ch4 et al form a national basis from within 60 minutes of the news breaking. We also had a 2 man team on site in Cumbria dealing with the local and national media within 60 minutes of the news breaking. Deerstalker, glad you got it all sorted, as I said before and I will (doubtless) say again, we may well not get it right every time, and sorry if the service you got on this occasion was not what you expected or indeed deserved. You are spot on though Cumbria has a much more practical approach than Merseyside who can be awkward I agree. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 Mungler, I do strongley agree with your comment's about David appearances on shooting forums, he must be the only one who does but is it not part of his job? What about the other shooting organisations, do they not have people then who interact with the shooting fraternity on a day to day basis and in their own name / the name of their shooting organisation... and on a Sunday.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I've had good service from BASC,and I've had poor service from BASC.An issue over a FAC shotgun was met with indifference,and my licensing dept' helped me out,believe it or not! My issue is not with the insurance or the facilities that one organisation has over another,my issue is with the fact that they give the impression that membership will ensure the future of shooting,and this simply isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I've had good service from BASC,and I've had poor service from BASC.An issue over a FAC shotgun was met with indifference,and my licensing dept' helped me out,believe it or not! My issue is not with the insurance or the facilities that one organisation has over another,my issue is with the fact that they give the impression that membership will ensure the future of shooting,and this simply isn't true. Well, what is true, IMHO, is that if BASC go to government with a proposal or to fight a proposal and they have 200,000 members, their comments and proposals will carry significantly more weight than if they have a membership of 100,000. Surely this is true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 I am more than happy with the coverage I get from the SACS, not only the insurance cover which is more than comprehensive for me but the legal and technical backup that they offer. Naturally David is going to try to put the SACS, the NGO and any other organisations down claiming that they are not as good as the BASC, they are after all rivals to the BASC and the more members these other organisations get the less chance there is of the BASC getting them to part with their (Twice as much) money for membership with the BASC! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenshooter Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 but the legal and technical backup that they offer. This is the first time I have heard that they offer legal and techical backup. What do they offer in general ie what sort of team, expertise do they have and how complicated was your 'issue' that they helped with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) Nothing in life is certain, but I am confident that with a large well funded shooting organization like BASC then shooting has a much brighter future than if BASC did not exist. We have seen hunting with hounds and running dogs curtailed in the last 10 years and lessons must be learned. The CA have their work cut out to get the hunting ban overturned ,and their new CEO says this is at the heart of what the CA stands for, maybe then their adverts for membership should target joining them to support the hunting cause...or has that well run dry? Regardless of what happens in hunting I am confident that there are going to be other, new pressures on shooting over the coming years, and these must be met head on with well resourced media and political campaigns to be proactive as well as reactive, so frankly if you want to do your bit to keep live quarry shooting safe then back BASC. I am hardly putting SACS / NGO or anyone else down when I simply point out that the BASC package contains an awful lot more than other membership packages. And tell me how shooting is going to be helped by taking money away from BASC, by joining the cheaper alternatives if the alternatives can't or won't turn up when shooting is under threat like it was post the shootings in Cumbria? Having said all that, personally I am all in favor of specialist organizations looking after their sector, like the NSRA, NRA and CPSA for example. The NGO have certainly carved themselves a place in the market, especially with 'keers, and i am sure their launch into Deer issues last year I think it was will find favor with some. As I have said I like their educational approach with the operational police, and I know their local network is well liked by 'keepers for all sorts of reasons. But BASC will still be needed to answer the call for the big battles that lay ahead. David Edited February 13, 2011 by David BASC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tam Posted February 13, 2011 Report Share Posted February 13, 2011 David - I am sure that most people insured with BASC think that the insurance covers legal representation (which it does not) how much would it cost for BASC to add this to their cover Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts