Are all shotgun catridges much of a muchness?

[Blunderbuss]

I don't know the answer to this, but have some thoughts and would be keen to hear others.

 

I reckon, by and large there is very little practical difference between one brand of cartridge from a modern large manufacturer in a particular shot load and size and another. Many of them, particularly across Europe, use the same or similar components and loading machines, and pressures and ballistics are tightly controlled by CIP or SAAMI. I think most of the perceived differences are in peoples heads, or down to psychology and clever marketing.

 

Classic example being a premium game load, say 30g of 5s or 6s. Nice long shiny brass head (entirely cosmetic), nicely printed box with various marketing terms stressing "quality" and "performance" printed in gold lettering. And yet in most instances, the ballistics are identical to a low brass budget or pigeon load from the same manufacturer in a plain box. I'm not much of a clay shooter, but I reckon (dons tin hat and ducks) that you could apply the same argument to most 28g clay loads?

 

Another factor is someone's first experiences using a new cartridge. Have a red letter day on the pigeons or shoot a rubbish round of sporting and it's all down to the new cartridges, when it could just as easily be that you were "in the zone" or distracted and shooting badly. Those cartridges then become the best, or the spawn of the devil for you, but for someone else their experience can be the complete opposite. Consequently people get very defensive of their preferred cartridges and have very strong brand loyalty and become very dismissive of others. Is this rational?

 

I know there are some differences, harder or softer shot, faster or slower powder affecting perceived recoil etc, but in the great scheme of things these are minor. I chuckle when someone describes a particular cartridge as more "hard hitting" than another, when muzzle velocities are (with a few exceptions) within a 100 fps of each other. Chances are are he just centred the pattern better and dusted clays he'd previously chipped or it used a faster burning powder so the recoil felt a little sharper.

 

I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing and you probably will shoot better with a cartridge you have confidence in, but are we too swayed by marketing and too easily conned into paying for premium products we don't need? Should we worry less about our cartridges, provided they weren't loaded in a shed in Vietnam and worry about more relevant stuff?

 

Just a thought

 

I don't want a fight, I'm perfectly prepared to admit I may be wrong

Edited April 3, 2011 by Blunderbuss

[MM]

they all go bang at the end of the day. If i was using 1000 per week, i might be able to tell a difference, but most folk like me dont know anything.

[Cannon]

I find that some cartridges hit harder than others when it comes to shooting crows. I recently bought some Lyalvale Express Game and found that they didn't hit birds as hard as the likes of Kent Velocities or Black Golds. I shall be reverting back to Gamebore.

[dipper]

I don't know the answer to this, but have some thoughts and would be keen to hear others.

 

I reckon, by and large there is very little practical difference between one brand of cartridge from a modern large manufacturer in a particular shot load and size and another. Many of them, particularly across Europe, use the same or similar components and loading machines, and pressures and ballistics are tightly controlled by CIP or SAAMI. I think most of the perceived differences are in peoples heads, or down to psychology and clever marketing.

 

Classic example being a premium game load, say 30g of 5s or 6s. Nice long shiny brass head (entirely cosmetic), nicely printed box with various marketing terms stressing "quality" and "performance" printed in gold lettering. And yet in most instances, the ballistics are identical to a low brass budget or pigeon load from the same manufacturer in a plain box. I'm not much of a clay shooter, but I reckon (dons tin hat and ducks) that you could apply the same argument to most 28g clay loads?

 

Another factor is someone's first experiences using a new cartridge. Have a red letter day on the pigeons or shoot a rubbish round of sporting and it's all down to the new cartridges, when it could just as easily be that you were "in the zone" or distracted and shooting badly. Those cartridges then become the best, or the spawn of the devil for you, but for someone else their experience can be the complete opposite. Consequently people get very defensive of their preferred cartridges and have very strong brand loyalty and become very dismissive of others. Is this rational?

 

I know there are some differences, harder or softer shot, faster or slower powder affecting perceived recoil etc, but in the great scheme of things these are minor. I chuckle when someone describes a particular cartridge as particular "hard hitting", when muzzle velocities are (with a few exceptions) within a 100 fps of each other. Chances are are he just centred the pattern better and dusted clays he'd previously chipped or it used a faster burning powder so the recoil felt a little sharper.

 

I'm not saying any of this is a bad thing and you probably will shoot better with a cartridge you have confidence in, but are we too swayed by marketing and too easily conned into paying for premium products we don't need? Should we worry less about our cartridges, provided they weren't loaded in a shed in Vietnam and worry about more relevant stuff?

 

Just a thought

 

I don't want a fight, I'm perfectly prepared to admit I may be wrong

[Blunderbuss]

I find that some cartridges hit harder than others when it comes to shooting crows. I recently bought some Lyalvale Express Game and found that they didn't hit birds as hard as the likes of Kent Velocities or Black Golds. I shall be reverting back to Gamebore.

 

How do you quantify "hit harder"?

[dipper]

Blunderbus has got it if you

can really shoot some cartridge will give you the edge but most shells ie eley blues.Are beter than MOST shooters. That means for clays .Very rarely you might like somthing with more punch for game ect Dipper.

[Cannon]

How do you quantify "hit harder"?

 

By 'hit harder' I mean kill cleaner. I have had to dispatch two crows because the initial hit from the Lyalvale's did not kill them. When using Gamebores the birds are dead before they hit the ground.

[Blunderbuss]

By 'hit harder' I mean kill cleaner. I have had to dispatch two crows because the initial hit from the Lyalvale's did not kill them. When using Gamebores the birds are dead before they hit the ground.

 

My point exactly. A subjective view that I suggest isn't backed up by the ballistics. No criticism, we all do it! There is only 50 fps theoretical difference between all of those cartridges. When you factor in shot to shot variation, environmental factors etc, as long as they use the same weight of shot and pellet size there is no objective difference in how hard they hit. They are for all (measurable ballistics) purposes, identical.

 

I have days where most birds fall dead cleanly in a burst of feathers, and days where I get a lot of pricked birds - using the same cartridges. I reckon that's down to my shooting or the fact I've placed my decoys too far out etc.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Blunderbuss

[sitsinhedges]

By 'hit harder' I mean kill cleaner. I have had to dispatch two crows because the initial hit from the Lyalvale's did not kill them. When using Gamebores the birds are dead before they hit the ground.

 

Isn't that just luck of the draw more often than not

[Blunderbuss]

Isn't that just luck of the draw more often than not

[Cannon]

Isn't that just luck of the draw more often than not

 

I suppose it could be. Just doesn't do anything for your confidence when you start winging birds rather than killing them. What about the wads? The shot is contained within a plastic wad until it exits the barrel, whereas fibre wads allow the shot to bounce off the barrel before it exits. Does this not make a big difference? I hear a lot of people commenting that plaswads always hit harder? Is there any truth to this?

[HDAV]

There is a big difference in how they "feel" when fired comparing Gamebore "supergems" 28g to Hull CompX 28g and Victory Compak 24g the difference is noticeable when you pull the trigger! they also sound very different! These are 3 I have most recently shot and on the same outing. Add a few Eley Blues, Firsts and Lyvale 21g all break clays but have a very different feeling sound and smell? All break clays when you aim in the right place!

[njc110381]

I think the more expensive shells have polished or coated shot to aid patterns and the machines may well be run slightly slower which makes the results more consistent.

 

Having said that did anyone see the latest Fieldsports Britain with George Digweed? He clearly stated that his favourite field cartridge was something Pigeon? Any shell with Pigeon in the name isn't going to be premium and if anyone's going to notice a difference I should have thought he would be prime candidate!

[sitsinhedges]

I think the more expensive shells have polished or coated shot to aid patterns and the machines may well be run slightly slower which makes the results more consistent.

 

Having said that did anyone see the latest Fieldsports Britain with George Digweed? He clearly stated that his favourite field cartridge was something Pigeon? Any shell with Pigeon in the name isn't going to be premium and if anyone's going to notice a difference I should have thought he would be prime candidate!

 

Digweed liked the Extreme Pigeon cartridge that he helped to design.

 

Funny that

[Oops Missed Again]

As long as it goes bang, the prey is in range, and you're "on it" hey presto.

It's not rocket science and I think some people make a big thing of it for no reason.

[pat g]

Just bought some Modena 28gr 7 1/2s on Friday for the clays. Used em today and they seem to do the job.I think some shooters think that you can " buy success" with some of the more expensive cartridges. I don't believe you can. True some of the so called better cartridges might pattern better etc but at the end of the day if you put the pattern in the right place you will break the clay. .

ATB Pat

[Mark-70]

I shoot black golds, fibre wad for clays, not tried them in plaswad. But I think you right about marketing, packaging and overall look of cartridge in general because I shoot the same scores with eley firsts.

Yes they look certainly look the business, they recoil hard which I supose makes you believe they are faster than anything else, but if the same scores are to be had with a cheaper cartridge is it really relevant?

But I'll still use them over other brands even though it is probably all in the mind. Lol.

[motty]

Yesterday i shot 80 pigeons, 9 rooks, 6 crows and 4 jackdaws over decoys. I used 5 different kinds of cartridge - 32gm 6 rio, 30gm 6 winchester gb, 30gm 6 proper pigeon, 28gm 7 nsi prima and 28gm 7 nsi smi. I can honestly say that all of the cartridges performed pretty much the same. I killed 55 yard pigeons stone dead with the rio and smi- yes i paced them out- and the crows were no problem for any of the loads. When i pricked a bird i didn't think it was because i was using a certain cartridge, just i didn't connect in the right place.

I had a ratio of around 1.56 per killed bird.

I generally buy the cheapest cartridges for pigeon shooting, which at the moment are £140 per 1000 (smi). I could spend an extra £80+ on the rios, which to me is a waste as i don't believe there is that much difference in performance to warrant it.

[saunders.shoots]

another note on the pigeon extremes, they are the one of the most expensive to buy!

again no wonder he promotes them...

[hcarlos]

Just bought some Modena 28gr 7 1/2s on Friday for the clays. Used em today and they seem to do the job.I think some shooters think that you can " buy success" with some of the more expensive cartridges. I don't believe you can. True some of the so called better cartridges might pattern better etc but at the end of the day if you put the pattern in the right place you will break the clay. .

ATB Pat

people went mad for them round by us everywhere within a 20 mile area is sold out :yp:

[pavman]

I have some and they are rubbish I only hit about 1 pigeon in five shots so clearly it must be the carts I have

[Jaguar Warrior]

I don't know much, but this I do know for certain - Cartridge manufacturers are a business. They aren't your friends. They aren't a charity. Their sole goal in life is to make the most profit from you that they can.

I'm now going to imagine i'm in my new job as marketing manager for for 'surehit' cartridges. Modest basic pay but you should see my potential bonus!

 

My job is to extract every penny i can from you as profit (cost of carts to you minus my manufacturing/distribution costs). I use every trick in the book. Nice boxes, high brass and i'm looking at even spray painting nice pictures of pheasants on the carts themselves. Mmmm, what about spraying the box or crimp with some propellant type odour? 1p for the spray, 10p on the box cost. Nice! I would use fast kicky powders for macho branding and slower powders for light and ladies loads.

 

One of the least important things to me now as a manager is the various patterns at various distances in various types of guns. Most people never pattern, so its not a big concern to me. Thats where the customer has an advantage. If the customer gets poor results, he will probably just change to another of our brands

 

Ive been shocked at the way patterns can change over distance. A great shot with a cart with a heavy centre pattern will get good results and over a fair distance, but a slightly less accurate shot do very badly as they are hitting the target with the thin shot cloud around the edge. The poor shot needs a wide, even cloud but with enough pellets still to kill. Plus pattern plates turn a 3D cloud into 2D which can be misleading.

 

Surely the answer here is the cheapest **** you can get that works for you at the distance you want and kills virtually every time? Too much kick? - go for the second cheapest then...

[Guest cookoff013]

cartridge manufacturers have,

advertising budgets thats why some cartridges are so expensive.

 

on the continent you can buy white cartridges, that are #5-#6 and are cheap and ****. but go bang.

[Alycidon]

There arn't any **** cartridges about these days. Buy ONE type of cartridge and STICK TO IT, yiu will have good days and not so good days but you will come to trust your cartridges after a few thousand down the tubes,

 

 

Eley, Gambore, Hull, Rio, Kent and the others all make better quality ammo than we are shots.

A

Edited April 9, 2011 by Alycidon

[Treestalker]

If you're looking for exceptional long range performance on edgy clays try the cartridges the top trap shooters use. Light recoil and good patterns are what they demand. Fiocchi's Golden Trap is awesome.

 

I agree that there aren't any rubbish cartridges available in the UK. I use any brand 32g "pigeon" cartridges for my pigeon and game shooting. I use them on grouse moors to high bird pheasant shoots and they perform well. I haven't been able to tell the difference between them and the cartridges with 'Supreme', 'Gold', 'Extreme', etc, printed on the side of them.

 

I've done a fair bit of pattern testing and have found the "cheaper" cartridges tend to produce better patterns in the long style chokes like Teagues and Brileys.

 

Confidence and doubt with a cartridge is what affects you the most. Find a cartridge you like, stick with it and ignore what others say.