AVB Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 I am reading a lot or articles at the moment regarding leadership in commerce and some have drawn parallels with military leadership. What isn't clear to me is what causes you to follow the military chain of command. Is it fear of punishment, fear of letting your colleagues down, or is it great leadership? Or something else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mushroom Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) I believe it is called Duty (to your regiment your fellow soilders and country)and being a professional soilder Never been in the military myself but come from a long line of badass ****'s who did serve their country and both grandad's did it out of duty as did the uncles and cousins. My mum's dad (born 1906) Tried to join for the first and was a medic during WW2 from the outset to the finish, he was shot twice in the back as he tended wounded soilders. taken from frontline duties. As soon as he was healed instead of being discharged he went back to the front. When asked why he said he couldn't leave his boys behind till the job was done (not like the Welsh nowadays eh ). The worst thing about all this is he was probably the last person hundreds of men saw before the end and he saw more than any man should, but never recieved a war pension. Edited April 7, 2011 by mushroom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) I am reading a lot or articles at the moment regarding leadership in commerce and some have drawn parallels with military leadership. What isn't clear to me is what causes you to follow the military chain of command. Is it fear of punishment, fear of letting your colleagues down, or is it great leadership? Or something else? The simple answer to your question is.... YES It is a combination of all of the above. Orders have to be obeyed, if they aren't the punishments can be draconian, your colleagues die (and if you got it wrong, thinking you knew better than your superior then the blood is on you,) And your fellow soldiers are almost MORE than family to you, their lives mean more to you than your own... can't really expand on that feeling, you need to experience it to understand it! Great leadership is the key and catalyst to it all though... the forces spend a lot of time and money making sure the people they put in charge of men's lives are the right ones (yes they make mistakes but that is human nature) and a 'leader of men' can be spotted a mile off! At the end of the day, when you join the forces you are not going in with your eyes shut, everyone realises that you do what you are told and follow orders and directions and do not give your superiors any ****. If you do, you will end up in the jail house and then you will just get turfed out... no tribunals or rubbish like that.. surbordination or disobeying orders are courts marshallable offences. You cannot run the armed forces or fight wars without a solid and RIGID chain of command... if soldiers are unwilling or incapable of fitting into that structure then they have no place there and are 'removed.' Edited April 7, 2011 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
border Scott Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 I think the fear of a shovel shake in the middle of the night by guys with respirators on and a broom handle up the jacksee will help focus the mind as to who is in charge. Many a man has turned up to parade after "falling in the shower". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonT Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 I think in training to start with its probably fear of getting beasted, and then it becomes the norm. As Vipa says you dont go in with your eyes shut, you know there is a chain of command. Great leadership I think though comes from respect, especially when the people issueing the orders have been there, seen it and done it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 I dont get what this is about no matter what walk of life you have leaders and troops in one format or another even in your own family, when lives are on the line that leadership and troop situation must be followed or people get hurt, regarding leadership in commerce and some have drawn parallels with military leadership no one is about to die in a business situation but a well run business that is very well organised may be said to be run along military lines whats hard to understand about that :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) Pride that comes with good training. (You know you are the best)! Plus respect for others above and below you in rank - providing they have earnt it - and your mates. You would never willingly let your mates down. But as said before - you can't explain it to someone who has never been in it. It is certainly no place for a shop-steward! Edited April 7, 2011 by Grandalf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Pavman - An army is not there to die - It is there to kill someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 What isn't clear to me is what causes you to follow the military chain of command. "Is it fear of punishment" - No, not really in my experience. If you're such a cabbage that you need to be kicked to do your job you probably wont get through basic training. "fear of letting your colleagues down" - Definately, although I would say friends or mates rather than colleagues, it is a small but important distinction, especially to a soldier. A colleague is someone who you work with in a bank, who you dont really like anyway "or is it great leadership?" - Seldom "Or something else?" - Training, fear of letting yourself down, training, a sense of personal professionalism, training... You get the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Well put Zapp - that is what I was trying to say. You don't live cheek by jowl in a hole in the ground with a colleague! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbirdtrev Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Duty to the service you are in. We all know what the discipline is going to be like before we go in but hey thats what makes our services the best in the world. The fact that everyone serving in the uk military wants to be there unlike other countries where you have conscriptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triscrx Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) What isn't clear to me is what causes you to follow the military chain of command. Is it fear of punishment, fear of letting your colleagues down, or is it great leadership? Or something else? What causes us to follow the chain of command?.. I think the answer to this is Respect. From day 1 in the military you are taught about Respect and Authority. When told to do something by a superior the thought process isn't oh I must do that or I will get in trouble. (Although it is a minor factor). You do it because you have been told to and because it needs doing. If you disagree you do it anyway and if you have a problem with what you were told to do you take it to the appropriate channels. I think alot of the breakdowns with society now are due to a lack of respect and authority for people. I wouldn't have dreamt of speaking to adults the way I see children behaving now. The key is a structure and firm rules. It is like a well trained Dog to function well it must be well disciplined and treated firm but still with respect. Everyone needs firm rules and a structure I think to function 100%. We all like to please our Master and feel part of a team. When the team achieve good results its a good feeling all round Edited April 7, 2011 by triscrx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Pavman - An army is not there to die - It is there to kill someone. yes and in the act of killing somone normally dies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) People tend to follow great leaders (when and if they can find them), however loyalty to mates trumps loyalty to leaders any day. The trouble is that in commerce and industry great 'managers' are often more useful than great 'leaders', especially in a bureaucracy where processes have to be followed. There are more rigid certainties in the military too, especially when it comes to who is in charge and what needs to be done. 'Industry' can be so up it's own ***-hole that 'leadership' could be a positive disadvantage, when it's actually 'management' that is required. The reason why so many ex-military folks struggle in civvy life is that so many of those certainties are removed when you leave. It's why ex-soldiers often ended up in the more 'militarised' arms of civvy life such as the prison service, where until not that long ago Prison Officers marched everywhere, it retained a sense of pride and respect, as tryscrx said. It is very hard to compare the two and I reckon you're more likely to find differences than similarities, despite what the latest management book may say. Edited April 7, 2011 by Thunderbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrelsniffer Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Discipline..Pride..Commitment..Respect..Professionalism and Loyalty Mick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrelsniffer Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 yes and in the act of killing somone normally dies Not always Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 And training, don't forget training. Being told what to do and doing it instantly hundreds of times a day preconditions you to respond. Doing the same exercise over and over means it become instintive. Combine the two and you have the modern soldier. But coming back to the OP regarding leadership in the army and leadership in civilian life. This explains why the two don't cross over. Civilians aren't used to being ordered around and don't like it. They will ask why? and the person giving the order loses credibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chally2 Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 We're all yes men And that is our down fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libs Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Well part of my Officer Cadet training gives me an institute of management or some such recognized award equivalent to a second year managerial degree, so I guess that the bods in charge believe there are parallels between military and civilian leadership. Its all about getting someone to do something they don't want to do and ensuring they eventually enjoy themselves doing it, harder than it may seem. Although I have no experience of life as a reg I have been on camp chatting to quite a few young lads (some of which were rolling around Salisbury in ridgebacks being shot at by us as pre-deployment training) and from what they said its just a job like any other and you do what you are told because no one wants to be sacked/get a rollocking. Also companies are always sending people to Sandhurst for courses so I guess they take something from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triscrx Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 I have an ILM Level 3 In management gained through the forces as we have a leadership school on the base. Alot of Civilian companies pay to use our facilities now on the base to gain the same qualification. 5 Week intensive course for the Level 3. A few Years ago I did a 2 week course and achieved a level 2 but a different awarding body then I think. NEBS in Management? I think it is very difficult to compare the Military ethos with a Civilian job. Alot of my friends that have left find it very easy outside and all have landed well paid £40K+ jobs in higher levels. I'm from an Engineering background in the forces and will leave with a BSC(Hons) in Engineering which does help. Another friend of mine has just started an Engineering job at Marine Projects in Plymouth as a temporary job until the Engineering job he wants becomes available with First great western and he finds it difficult working in the civilian world due to the set break times and generally slower pace of life. In the forces if your doing a job you crack on until its done not hear the break bell and down tools and come back once you have had a brew and a break with an engine in mid air on a hoist! Biggest thing that grips my **** with Civilians is timekeeping. If I say I will be somewhere at 18:00 I will be there at 17:55 to be sure. Alot of my civilian friends would arrive at 18:10 and this is the norm. Sense of humor is very different as well between the two. Not sure how many people read the leaving the forces post recently with an amusing list of 'do's & dont's' when you leave the forces. Worth a read Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Biggest thing that grips my **** with Civilians is timekeeping. If I say I will be somewhere at 18:00 I will be there at 17:55 to be sure. Alot of my civilian friends would arrive at 18:10 and this is the norm. Oh how I can relate to that There is only one thing that makes me blow my top faster than lateness, and that is when the person who has just wafted in think thta a breezy comment such as "I'm never on time" will actually serve to do anything other than make me more angry. We hates it m'precious! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Oh how I can relate to that There is only one thing that makes me blow my top faster than lateness, and that is when the person who has just wafted in think thta a breezy comment such as "I'm never on time" will actually serve to do anything other than make me more angry. We hates it m'precious! It shows lack of respect for people and circumstance, A short while back a guy contracted to us kept showing up about 5 mins late for shift and said "you know me I do my own thing not like the sheep shift" it was his last days pay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavman Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 This chap was under orders to get hitched when a night of fun led to a bun :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandalf Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Funny how this being late thing can run on into wives and families. My first wife was the daughter of a shop steward (printer). Alway 30 mins late for everything and thought it was a joke! So, whenever we were invited out the first thing I had to do was apologise for our late arrival. Soon people stop inviting you. I was in the army - it was difficult. Second wife is the daughter of a man who in 1914 was a private in the Territorial Army - went straight to France. He got commissioned, became a pilot in the Royal Flying Corps, stayed on and retired as an Air Vice Marshal after the second world war. Raised his daughters as he led his own life. Five minutes before scheduled time of departure wife number two is sitting in the car waiting for me - Bliss! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted April 11, 2011 Report Share Posted April 11, 2011 Wonder how many of the posts have been written by members currently serving or have previously served as a regular in the UK armed forces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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