Hamster Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 packing shells so they recoil as lead? you can load them faster ! It is well known that steel kicks more and it`s partly to do with having less space inside the shell to fit a compressible type of wad in, plus they have to drive it faster to begin with as it loses velocity and effectiveness faster than lead, that`s what I meant by packaging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 That`s not comparing like for like then is it? A 6.5 game load can`t hit harder than a 6.5 clay load can it unless it was faster which they usually are not. What we should say is use the right SIZE of shot for the differnt applications. They all have powder, wad and pellets in them, if loading them with soft shot and calling them game made them better (I don`t mean to be overly sarcastic, just a little) then Digweed would use them for his world domination. He doesn`t, instead uses clay loads and that must tell us something! did you see him shooting crows? one thing I can say is he used a game cartridge not a clay one as he showed what he used Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted April 18, 2011 Report Share Posted April 18, 2011 Guys - it's a case of showing your quarry respect. I shake my head in astonishment when people say they shoot pigeons with clay loads [7/7.5]. Thought I might take my .22 shooting deer you see. The rounds are cheaper, I wouldn't need another gun and IF you shoot them in the exactly right place they will die. Do we need legal minimum cartridge loadings and shot sizes for game? If people behave irresponsibly then I can see it coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catamong Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Guys - it's a case of showing your quarry respect. I shake my head in astonishment when people say they shoot pigeons with clay loads [7/7.5]. Thought I might take my .22 shooting deer you see. The rounds are cheaper, I wouldn't need another gun and IF you shoot them in the exactly right place they will die. Do we need legal minimum cartridge loadings and shot sizes for game? If people behave irresponsibly then I can see it coming. Spot on Matey, my thoughts entirely. Of course Pigeons can be killed with 28 g of 7.5's, but over the course of a season you will *****, (and therefore lose), many more birds than you would with a 32 g No 6 Game Load. That doesn't seem to matter to many people nowadays, all they think about is the cost of the ammo, nothing else, I'm convinced if Eley did a 12 g load of 9's you'd get some muppet on here spouting on about how good they are for Pigeons and how much money he's saved. "Respect for quarry", it doesn't figure in a lot of shooters minds nowadays, what a pity. Cat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 It is well known that steel kicks more and it`s partly to do with having less space inside the shell to fit a compressible type of wad in, plus they have to drive it faster to begin with as it loses velocity and effectiveness faster than lead, that`s what I meant by packaging. no, they dont drive it faster than lead. the cip forbids the sale of steel shells that exceed 1400fps. steel does kick, but so does lead. calculating recoil, steel or lead doesnt even come in to it. big loads dont have a compressable wad, small ones do. digweed is sponsored, so is given the shells. i`d shoot freebies. i still say, use a clay cartridge for clay and game for game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 no, they dont drive it faster than lead. the cip forbids the sale of steel shells that exceed 1400fps. steel does kick, but so does lead. calculating recoil, steel or lead doesnt even come in to it. big loads dont have a compressable wad, small ones do. digweed is sponsored, so is given the shells. i`d shoot freebies. i still say, use a clay cartridge for clay and game for game. As a clay shooter I can tell you that 24 gram steel feels every bit as thumpy as 28 gram of lead, and 28 gram steel definitely feels thumpier. Split a case of each and you`ll see there is no collapsible plaswad in the steel . I agree with your last statement but only inasmuch as the shot size variances are concerned. I do not believe so called Game shells kill better, the reverse in fact because they usually don`t pattern as well as top line clay loads, like for like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Of course Pigeons can be killed with 28 g of 7.5's, but over the course of a season you will *****, (and therefore lose), many more birds than you would with a 32 g No 6 Game Load. "Respect for quarry", it doesn't figure in a lot of shooters minds nowadays, what a pity. Cat. Hi Cat , I would not recommend 7.5`s shot clay loads for game or general shooting but in the narrow band of decoyed pigeon don`t knock it till you`ve tried it . Personally I`ve never got on with 6`s as well as 7 shot which is my preferrence especially in 30 or 32 gram. The late Archie Coates made a single revision in subsequent re-prints of his pigeon shooting classic and that was he admitted he found 7`s to be more productive over decoys compared to 6`s which he had originally recommended . I shoot was is available at a reasonable price, cheapest is not a factor, but next time you`re out take a pocketful of Eley Superbs in 7.5 , and tell me they don`t pole axe them over decoys and all the way out to 35 yards. When I go decoying I try to bring them in, if they won`t play then I switch chokes and ammo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 out of interest what do you change the ammo to if they aren't landing in the pattern? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 out of interest what do you change the ammo to if they aren't landing in the pattern? I shoot 7`s by choice with something like Skeet & LM or 1/2 for chasers. If the birds are a bit leery (something you often suspect is going to be the case beforehand), then I`d go 1/2 and 3/4 with 6.5 or even 5`s although I`ve not really found I gelled with the latter except for either flighting or shooting tall roosting birds. You can be amazed or dismayed if you like but I often shoot very long pigeon stone dead with 7`s through 3/4 choke. By long I mean over 45 yards NOT 85 as documented by dreamers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 dreamers or indeed Digweed with a game cartridge Cat summed it up well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canis Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Hi Cat , I would not recommend 7.5`s shot clay loads for game or general shooting but in the narrow band of decoyed pigeon don`t knock it till you`ve tried it . Personally I`ve never got on with 6`s as well as 7 shot which is my preferrence especially in 30 or 32 gram. The late Archie Coates made a single revision in subsequent re-prints of his pigeon shooting classic and that was he admitted he found 7`s to be more productive over decoys compared to 6`s which he had originally recommended . I shoot was is available at a reasonable price, cheapest is not a factor, but next time you`re out take a pocketful of Eley Superbs in 7.5 , and tell me they don`t pole axe them over decoys and all the way out to 35 yards. When I go decoying I try to bring them in, if they won`t play then I switch chokes and ammo. Eley Superbs are high antimony extremely fast cartridges and these two facts will assist with hiding the limited stoping power of the 7.5 shot on pigeon but these are a premium clay cartridge and are the same price as a proper pigeon cartridge! most of the ?'S on her professing to take pigeon an 45 yards with 21g 9's( ) are claiming to use them because they are cheap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted April 19, 2011 Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Eley Superbs are high antimony extremely fast cartridges and these two facts will assist with hiding the limited stoping power of the 7.5 shot on pigeon but these are a premium clay cartridge and are the same price as a proper pigeon cartridge! £175 a thou and yes they are the equal of anything from Hull or Gamebore that costs up to £220. Proper Game shell start at £200, anything around the £175 with pigeon pictures would be considered cheap. The market for clay shells is not only very competitive but a constant pretty much throughout the year, game shells are more seasonal and the target audience is by definition less price savvy. I don`t blame shell manufacturers for capitalizing on this lack of street wiseness from game shooters, I just won`t fall for it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maidment78 Posted April 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2011 Love the chat, good to see people get all worked up now and again, one question, how do you know a game cart works better? I am not joking about, I for one could not tell the difference between a 6.5 game or a 6.5 clay cartridge, is there someone out there who has actually tested this? If so how? I was reading a book from coates and rutter and they both rave on about #7 shot for pigeon and pheasant. What has changed? are number 7 shot smaller now then a few years back or are we just not as good a shot or is our field craft worse so we have to get the birds further out or were they just wrong? I have only been using a shotgun for the last 18 months seriously and before this I was using a .410 when I was a child and then only did roost shooting with my dad and as I was only 8 the only thing I knew was the carts were red. Out Friday with the new carts so will actually try #6 clear pigeon 30g, #6 high bird 28g & 30g loads and also these new #6.5 in 28g and see what feels better (just hope the birds play fair. Also get to use the new improved flapper with door bell switch, can not remember who suggested it but made it today and can not believe I never thought of it, foot operated as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted April 20, 2011 Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 Love the chat, good to see people get all worked up now and again, one question, how do you know a game cart works better? I am not joking about, I for one could not tell the difference between a 6.5 game or a 6.5 clay cartridge, is there someone out there who has actually tested this? If so how? I was reading a book from coates and rutter and they both rave on about #7 shot for pigeon and pheasant. What has changed? are number 7 shot smaller now then a few years back or are we just not as good a shot or is our field craft worse so we have to get the birds further out or were they just wrong? You can`t tell the difference and that`s the plain truth of it. I came to the conclusion that high antimony hard clay loads kill at least as well as supposedly soft game shot years and years ago and although you obviously have to be careful and get the right shot size and preferably 32 gram loads, the outcome is the exact same dead birds. You can`t blame manufacturers bull******** you with tales of soft shot being better for live game, it`s funny how that actually equates to cheaper shot yet they still manage to cost more than clay loads . The reason 7 shot is at least as good as 6 if not better is pattern coverage; you can get lucky with 5`s at 60 yards and break a wing but 7`s through 1/4 or 1/2 will deliver multiple strikes when aimed well and leads to more folded dead in the air pigeon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted April 20, 2011 Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 the harder the lead the more antimony, that isnt cheap to incorperate into shot. when you can just drop pure lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utectok Posted April 20, 2011 Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 They are fibre sure the would be a cracking deeking cartin shot 6.5! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maidment78 Posted April 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Well, that was a brilliant day, only 10 birds in all, 2 crow, rook and some pigeon but superb weather and there was a buzzard who decided that one of my deeks was lunch, hit the bird (plastic) then look very upset and flew to the branch 10ft above my head and sat there for a while. Great to watch. Carts, they were supurb, very low kick but I was using a 8 shot semi and it does not really kick anyway but smooth, clean kills out to 45 yards for one bird on 1/2 choke so all in all I was pleased, bright colour casing did make it easier to find the spent carts in the grass so that too was a plus. The debate for game or clay, and shot size will rage for some time I am sure but I for one rate these as being good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeon love Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 (edited) Well, that was a brilliant day, only 10 birds in all, 2 crow, rook and some pigeon but superb weather and there was a buzzard who decided that one of my deeks was lunch, hit the bird (plastic) then look very upset and flew to the branch 10ft above my head and sat there for a while. Great to watch. Carts, they were supurb, very low kick but I was using a 8 shot semi and it does not really kick anyway but smooth, clean kills out to 45 yards for one bird on 1/2 choke so all in all I was pleased, bright colour casing did make it easier to find the spent carts in the grass so that too was a plus. The debate for game or clay, and shot size will rage for some time I am sure but I for one rate these as being good. Great day shooting!! My first shot for 2 months was a cracker!! shame about the sitter I missed 10mins later The buzzard was a rare treat, just wishing I had the camera, to catch the look on its face, when it realised the decoy wasnt a real pigeon!! Look forward to trying out the new carts next week. Edited April 22, 2011 by Pigeon love Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Towngun Posted August 8, 2017 Report Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) The modern cartridge is better than the man behind it! 28 grams of No.6 shot will kill any pheasant that you "should" be shooting at, out to 40-50 yards. Clay shooting technology leads the way and Antimony Content in Lead Shot makes the shot harder with less deformation when it exits the barrel. This means better patterns with less deformed flyers. It takes around 6 to 8 pellets to kill a pheasant so the better and more even your pattern the greater its capacity to kill. So too with the Wood Pigeon. I doubt that shot reaching a pheasant/pigeon at 40 yards has sufficient energy to deform on impact and in any case the pattern must reach the bird with the prospect of a 6 - 8 pellet strike i.e. a good pattern without flyers. Example: Eley Zenith are Copper plating Game Shot to avoid deformed shot and these cartridges are flavour of the game season because of their hard shot and superior patterning. CSP are an excellent cartridge with high antimony and patterns. They are in fact Gamebore Whitegold, arguably one of the best clay loads availble and when loaded with 6.5 shot size, are suitable for live quarry. These days it is the clay world that is developing the technology for the game world to follow. Fashion plays a part in game shooting and many game shots are happy to pay a premium just because they can and just because they percieve "value" in "cost", for a cartridge that looks good and is marketed to appeal. Allowing for humain shot size, the worst cartridge available is better the man or women behind it! Edited August 8, 2017 by Towngun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted August 8, 2017 Report Share Posted August 8, 2017 Spot on Matey, my thoughts entirely. Of course Pigeons can be killed with 28 g of 7.5's, but over the course of a season you will *****, (and therefore lose), many more birds than you would with a 32 g No 6 Game Load. That doesn't seem to matter to many people nowadays, all they think about is the cost of the ammo, nothing else, I'm convinced if Eley did a 12 g load of 9's you'd get some muppet on here spouting on about how good they are for Pigeons and how much money he's saved. "Respect for quarry", it doesn't figure in a lot of shooters minds nowadays, what a pity. Cat. Nice to see old threads resurrected. Also nice to see that some folk change their opinions over the years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilts#Dave Posted August 8, 2017 Report Share Posted August 8, 2017 (edited) You're a bit late replying, this thread was from 2011. But not much has changed so could have been yesterday! Edited August 8, 2017 by Wilts#Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted August 8, 2017 Report Share Posted August 8, 2017 He was referring to the use of clay carts for pigeons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilts#Dave Posted August 9, 2017 Report Share Posted August 9, 2017 He was referring to the use of clay carts for pigeons. I don't think of 6/6.5 shot being clay cartridges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrowningB525 Posted August 9, 2017 Report Share Posted August 9, 2017 (edited) Whoops Edited August 9, 2017 by BrowningB525 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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