Vipa Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) I don't think anyone set out to insult the chap but... A google search as to the effective hunting range of a crossbow will give you numerous examples where the reasonable range for a deer sized target is considered to be half that stated distance so it's not unreasonable to point out that the chap is probably very talented if he can hit a rabbits head consistently at 75yards Or maybe he meant 7.5yards :yp: Look.... the reason the reasonable range is around 40 yards is to ENSURE correct shot placement. An arrow or bolt, whilst carrying a fair bit of energy (equivalent to a .22lr or double in some cases) does not rely on that/use that to ensure quick and humane dispach. A broadhead relies purely on cutting, not hydrostatic shock. The aim with a bow or crossbow is to penetrate both lungs and cut the main arteries at the top of the heart, the cutting area on a modern broadhead is massive, the wound channel is therefore huge and the animal bleeds out (into it's lungs, effectively drowning) VERY quickly. A runner with a well placed arrow won't run as far as I've had deer run with a well placed 6.5x55! Why.... Let me tell you When a beastie is hit with a bullet, all that energy is transfered to the animal, so, as well as doing a lot of messy internal damage/shredding/splintering etc... it feels like it's just been hit with a sledgehammer... adrenaline kicks in and away she runs...... Now.... What do you feel when you cut yourself with a VERY sharp knife?.... NOTHING.... certainly no pain, it is a sensation, your brain knows something has happened but it is more of a mental realisation that something has happened rather than a physical reaction to something... Imagine 3 blades, each at 45 degrees to your body, RAZOR sharp and about 1.5" long, preceeded by a tungsten point with a tip like a needle, traveling at between 300 & 400 fps.... you get the idea, no hydrostatic shock, no BIG impact.. unless it hit bone square on you probably wouldn't know that you'd been hit by something right away! The same goes for beasts and bow hunting.. If you watch any GOOD bowhunting footage, you will notice that the initial kick and run isn't due to impact as it is with a bullet but the sound of the string hitting the limb savers 'spooking' the beast, beast then runs a short distance, lies down and dies quite swiftly from asphyxiation. As I have previously said, hitting a rabbits head sized target at 75 yards consistently for a decent bowman wouldn't be a problem just as hitting a deer at 400 yards consistently shouldn't be a problem for a half decent rifleman, they don't do it out of respect for thier quarry. Now... please do some research before you spout rubbish and picking on people who ask legitimate questions... his question was about legality, I think he gets that now, I have absolutely no doubt at all that he could do what he says at the distances he says with a scoped up crossbow. Edited July 18, 2011 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I think that watching a bucketfull of fat yanks shooting deer with bows/crossbows on youtube will remind us why it was outlawed-our world has moved on. I think you will find that it was banned in the UK as an anti poaching measure rather than a humane issue! If done correctly bowhunting is just as humane as hunting with a rifle and in a lot of cases less traumatic for the beast in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I'm also sure that the swallow tail or 'horse dropper' as it was known, would do for deer as well as horses but the world, as someone has said rightly, has moved on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 There was some Polish up our way arrested for shooting Roe Deer with a bow.....they got off because it is apparently legal in there country, & they thought the same applied here :blink: Begs belief...they should have Birched the *******. Back in the days when all they had was bows & arrows they had no option, it was survival. Talk about respect for your quarry, as said the world has moved on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Talk about respect for your quarry, as said the world has moved on. If this is what you think, you know nothing about the subject. It may not be your cup of tea, it may not be legal in the UK but it is no less respectful to quarry than shooting with a rifle and yes... the world has moved on... modern compound bows are light years beyond their forebears, infact, archery technology has progressed much more in the last 100 years than has firearms technology! And don't forget... the skill required to get within 30-40 yards or less of a deer etc. is beyond the reach of most of us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 it may not be legal in the UK but it is no less respectful to quarry than shooting with a rifle Your entitled to your opinion Vipa, but I think you'll find your in the minority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 If this is what you think, you know nothing about the subject. It may not be your cup of tea, it may not be legal in the UK but it is no less respectful to quarry than shooting with a rifle and yes... the world has moved on... modern compound bows are light years beyond their forebears, infact, archery technology has progressed much more in the last 100 years than has firearms technology! And don't forget... the skill required to get within 30-40 yards or less of a deer etc. is beyond the reach of most of us! Mel Gibson does it in Braveheart with a camera crew around him with a mad Irishman in the background chucking axes. Mustn't be that hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) Your entitled to your opinion Vipa, but I think you'll find your in the minority. sorry... didn't know this was a popularity contest... The comments about bowhunting show the same level of ignorance about the sport that we criticize the general public for having against shooting sports in this country. As I have said, you may not like it, it may be distasteful to you but the FACT is, when done properly it is as humane as shooting with bullets... and before someone picks up on 'done properly,' there is plenty of shooting with firearms in the UK that isn't done properly. Your arguments are based on your assumptions and emotions, not based on evidence, knowledge and/or experience. My argument is about the humanity of the dispach and the subsequent level of suffering (or not) of the beast, not whether it is tasteful or not! Edited July 18, 2011 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin128 Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 lez1st Get a FAC and buy a second hand CZ452 in 22LR...Very accurate and does not damage the meat so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeon_snIPer Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Head shots at 75 yrds is pretty good shooting mate. keep it up. /S/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 when done properly it is as humane as shooting with bullets Well....there you go then.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie10 Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 sorry... didn't know this was a popularity contest... The comments about bowhunting show the same level of ignorance about the sport that we criticize the general public for having against shooting sports in this country. As I have said, you may not like it, it may be distasteful to you but the FACT is, when done properly it is as humane as shooting with bullets... and before someone picks up on 'done properly,' there is plenty of shooting with firearms in the UK that isn't done properly. Your arguments are based on your assumptions and emotions, not based on evidence, knowledge and/or experience. My argument is about the humanity of the dispach and the subsequent level of suffering (or not) of the beast, not whether it is tasteful or not! Lots of people on here with opinions but no experience. Blasting animals is the only way on here. Leaving out the question of legality, yes we all know it's illegal because before long everything will be, not because of any reason but peoples perceptions. Why would there be anymore or less suffering for a animal from a crossbow/bow? It has the same effect as a bullet but with a shorter range, meaning people using them have to have a idea of fieldcraft rather than shooting from a distance. Everyone talks about respect for quarry but we know that it is evident that is selective depending whether it is a rabbit or deer. I don't think people have much experience of shooting larger animals on here, or few do and the way that larger animals die. Shooting pigeons, being hit with multiple shot at long distances doesn't kill them outright on all occasions. Ideally shooting them at rest is more humane with a single bullet but when it comes to deer it becomes all emotional. I wonder if people say that we have moved on once shooting is banned and deer are given contraceptives to reduce population size, which has already been suggested. It's a shame that people can't debate these things without saying - it's banned leave it alone - the US idiots still use them and what a mess they make. Well I see a strong united front for hunting/shooting in the US, not here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hambone Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 I have always been under the impression that banning bow hunting was more to do with poaching rather than cruelty issues, however i think that the main reason it was banned without much fuss was because it was a minority fieldsport and therefore an easy target for anti's etc. Even if you would not do it yourself you may look back at this as the thin end of the wedge with regard to further restriction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Well....there you go then.. Ok BJ.... I have stated my case and gone into quite some detail as to why it is as humane or more so in a lot of cases... I would now be interested in why you feel it is not and what evidence/experience/knowledge you have to substantiate that. Up to now all I see is random comments that have no substance and no qualification... Bit like a bloke in a pub huffing and laughing then sitting back with his arms folded trying to look authoratitive when in reality, he has absolutely no knowledge of the subject he is criticizing Edited July 19, 2011 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasshopper Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 As I have said, you may not like it, it may be distasteful to you but the FACT is, when done properly it is as humane as shooting with bullets... and before someone picks up on 'done properly,' there is plenty of shooting with firearms in the UK that isn't done properly. That is the problem though,it is not done properly enough!A rifle and scope are far easier to master than a bow. And let's face it,an animal running away with an arrow sticking out of it,looks far worse. Your arguments are based on your assumptions and emotions, not based on evidence, knowledge and/or experience. Out of curiosity,where is your vast experience of bow hunting? You must have plenty to come on here and make the sweeping statements that you do,after all,your not offering your opinion,your telling all that they are wrong,and you are right...once again! you really are very arrogant My argument is about the humanity of the dispach and the subsequent level of suffering (or not) of the beast, not whether it is tasteful or not! Just so you know my view,i find it distateful and i personally would not like to partake in it,each to their own though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Its interesting as the bow hunters claim the animals just bleed out and as such don't tend to run and just slowly drop. In practice may work like that in ideal circumstances but i'm far from convinced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Just so you know my view,i find it distateful and i personally would not like to partake in it,each to their own though I genuinely fail to see any arrogance in my posts I at least back up my posts with facts, understanding of the mechanics, equipment and sport and knowlege gained from a deep interest in bowhunting gained over more than a decade, I don't just dismiss at hand. As I have said again and again, bowhunting my not 'float your boat' but that doesn't make it inhumane, or any less humane than shooting with a rifle. That is not my argument, we are all entitled to our own opinions of everything but in this thread, the lines are being blurred. The attitude I am seeing is that of 'it must be inhumane because it's banned in the UK' or 'it must be inhumane because it uses centuries old technology that was superceded by firearms.' These comments are meaningless unless based on fact but they are not based on fact, they are based on ignorance and emotion. This is understandable as very few people in the UK are ever exposed to bowhunting and therefore see it as something 'those stupid yanks' do. Archery equipment is a million miles away from where it was 200 years ago (or even 29 years ago when I started!) The problem here is that, as soon as the words bow & arrow are mentioned, most brits see either an english longbow or something they saw the indians using in a John Wayne Movie... That's a bit like comparing a flintlock to an AI/AW. The mechanics of it are easy to understand but, most shooters try to apply their knowledge of rifles and bullets to bows and arrows... It doesn't work, they do completely different things to achieve the same end. One main convergence however, is range. As long as the weapons are used within their effective range they will produce the desired results and all will produce those results with the same level of 'humanity' or 'suffering.' You say, refering to bowhunting: "That is the problem though,it is not done properly enough" Where is your evidence to back this up.. or is this yet another assumption? As to my knowledge of bowhunting... I got interested in the subject/sport in the mid 90s and have followed it ever since. I have toyed with the idea of going on a bowhunting holiday in either the States or Africa but unfortunately, training to get to a level where I would feel confident that I was doing it properly is not possible in the UK. (in the USA, the compulsory training and qualifications are difficult to achieve and take a long time.) Tifany Lakosky is the 'other woman' in my life and 'The Crush' is on the screen in my house probably more than 'Fieldsports Britain.' One doesn't need to have been into space to be an astro-physicist! Just to be well read in the subject.... I don't recall ever saying I partook? I started shooting recurve with Pendle Bowmen when I was 16, field archery approx 8 years ago, my current bow is a Real-Tree Hoyt Vectrix with a 60lb pull (to keep it within competition limits in the UK) and is set up in full hunting guise. Edited July 19, 2011 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Its interesting as the bow hunters claim the animals just bleed out and as such don't tend to run and just slowly drop. In practice may work like that in ideal circumstances but i'm far from convinced If you'd ever handled a modern broadhead you would change your mind. This is why range is critical.. There is mo margin for error with a bow. (took my bow to a local range a couple of years ago, swapped out the target point for a broadhead and let one rip at 25m... everyone was desparate to see it in action... it does look quite the 'machine!' Now... the backstop, past the rubber sheeting is your standard MOD spec .22 steel, .22lr rounds just splash and have no impact whatsoever on it! A 125gr Thunder Head punched a hole in it !) If you are off with a rifle, the shock and internal damage will see most beasts off quite quickly. With a bow, if the heart and lungs are missed completely then there isn't the collateral damage to fall back on... it will still bleed to death but could take much longer. But this is whey compulsory training and qualifications are mandatory in the US, you can't just go buy a bow and start shooting stuff.... like you can in the UK with a rifle :blink: Edited July 19, 2011 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Just so you know my view,i find it distateful and i personally would not like to partake in it,each to their own though In think that to call vipa arrogant is actually very kind. Throughout this thread he has been rude and patronising beyond reason in the absolute belief that only he has any valid insight into the subject. He has presented his opinion and nothing else, certainly not the indesputable facts he seems to think he has and then has to resort to personal insults to anyone who dare think otherwise. I could say a lot more but wont waste my breathe on him. I don't mind having a debate about anything or a different view but when someone needs to try and dominate the forum by attacking other posters personally I lose interest. I'll save my energies for things that actually matter, but laugh at him typing reams, with the veins bulging in his head, as he tries to dominate something that the rest of us don't really even care about that much I'm done And he hasn't even been bowhunting after all the big talk Edited July 19, 2011 by sitsinhedges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 In think that to call vipa arrogant is actually very kind. Throughout this thread he has been rude and patronising beyond reason in the absolute belief that only he has any valid insight into the subject. He has presented his opinion and nothing else, certainly not the indesputable facts he seems to think he has and then has to resort to personal insults to anyone who dare think otherwise. I could say a lot more but wont waste my breathe on him. I don't mind having a debate about anything or a different view but when someone needs to try and dominate the forum by attacking other posters personally I lose interest. I'll save my energies for things that actually matter, but laugh at him typing reams, with the veins bulging in his head, as he tries to dominate something that the rest of us don't really even care about that much I'm done And he hasn't even been bowhunting after all the big talk Where on earth have I attacked anyone??? And why does not having done something somehow diminish knowledge... I know an aweful lot about handguns and military equipment that I have never used, doesn't suddenly make that knowledge invalid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 I don't think vipa has come across arrogant he knows about bows/crossbows and has told you the facts. I personally think most members on here don't own firearms let alone shot a deer and understand its anatomy. I understand what he's saying if his arrow cuts major blood vessels then the animal is going to die very quick. And as for comparing them with rifles don't talk so much ****. Quick question for the 'its inhumane' crowd. Have you ever shot a rabbit/pigeon/fox and only wounded it. I know I have in fact it happened the other night. I know nothing about bows. Each to his own. Try speaking to the rest of the population about shooting poor defenceless cute rabbits/deer. I bet they think its unacceptable and inhumane. Unless thers a united front it the shooting/hunting community then I'm afraid it to will be banned and the world will MOVE ON Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasshopper Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 I genuinely fail to see any arrogance in my posts I at least back up my posts with facts, understanding of the mechanics, equipment and sport and knowlege gained from a deep interest in bowhunting gained over more than a decade, I don't just dismiss at hand. As I have said again and again, bowhunting my not 'float your boat' but that doesn't make it inhumane, or any less humane than shooting with a rifle. That is not my argument, we are all entitled to our own opinions of everything but in this thread, the lines are being blurred. The attitude I am seeing is that of 'it must be inhumane because it's banned in the UK' or 'it must be inhumane because it uses centuries old technology that was superceded by firearms.' These comments are meaningless unless based on fact but they are not based on fact, they are based on ignorance and emotion. This is understandable as very few people in the UK are ever exposed to bowhunting and therefore see it as something 'those stupid yanks' do. Archery equipment is a million miles away from where it was 200 years ago (or even 29 years ago when I started!) The problem here is that, as soon as the words bow & arrow are mentioned, most brits see either an english longbow or something they saw the indians using in a John Wayne Movie... That's a bit like comparing a flintlock to an AI/AW. The mechanics of it are easy to understand but, most shooters try to apply their knowledge of rifles and bullets to bows and arrows... It doesn't work, they do completely different things to achieve the same end. One main convergence however, is range. As long as the weapons are used within their effective range they will produce the desired results and all will produce those results with the same level of 'humanity' or 'suffering.' You say, refering to bowhunting: "That is the problem though,it is not done properly enough" Where is your evidence to back this up.. or is this yet another assumption? As to my knowledge of bowhunting... I got interested in the subject/sport in the mid 90s and have followed it ever since. I have toyed with the idea of going on a bowhunting holiday in either the States or Africa but unfortunately, training to get to a level where I would feel confident that I was doing it properly is not possible in the UK. (in the USA, the compulsory training and qualifications are difficult to achieve and take a long time.) Tifany Lakosky is the 'other woman' in my life and 'The Crush' is on the screen in my house probably more than 'Fieldsports Britain.' One doesn't need to have been into space to be an astro-physicist! Just to be well read in the subject.... I don't recall ever saying I partook? I started shooting recurve with Pendle Bowmen when I was 16, field archery approx 8 years ago, my current bow is a Real-Tree Hoyt Vectrix with a 60lb pull (to keep it within competition limits in the UK) and is set up in full hunting guise. You see,this is your problem.....you just ramble on and on quoting from books.... I can't be bothered to read it...again.Whenever you post on a thread,i just skip your bit. Now if you could rewrite your answer but in only 3-4lines,i'll have a look Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) You see,this is your problem.....you just ramble on and on quoting from books.... I can't be bothered to read it...again.Whenever you post on a thread,i just skip your bit. Now if you could rewrite your answer but in only 3-4lines,i'll have a look No quotes from books, information gained from various resources over the years. 'Well read' doesn't imply plageurism! If you can't be bothered to read it.. don't.. I'm not here to placate you, hardly huge amounts of text to read but I'd rather that than post dull one liners. Difficult to condense what I have written into 3-4 lines without resorting to txt spch.. ok m8 There... 4 lines... happy?... have you read that one? Edited July 19, 2011 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 don't rise to it vipa, they're on a wind up mission for sure I've had my eyes opened to different methods of hunting by a few people, the general rule here just lately seems to be " you can't do this" when asked why the only answer seems to be " because someone else said so", or " it's illegal, that's why!". ***?? Has it not occurred to anyone to question why some things are banned? As has been mentioned before, it's so much easier to ban different forms of hunting or shooting if we are divided and argueing amongst ourselves, why can't you lot just accept that there are more ways to skin a cat than just your own way, go on now, grow up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artschool Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 i used to live on cape cod and went bowhunting for deer many times. you had to pass a test and get a licence. there is no good reason why you cant hunt with a bow in is country apart from the fact that we have a bunch of stupid laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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