Dealing with SANDBAGGERS

[TaxiDriver]

I have seen people rip up their entry without handing in a card, in order to retain a higher classification - at Registered events.

 

I know nowt about shooting competatively so excuse me for throwing the following thought in ;

Maybe there should be a penalty of some kind for trying to manipulate the score/rankings by NOT submitting a scorecard IF you have registered as an entrant ?

[canthitathing]

I think mr potter hit the nail on the head- you have to have a bad grasp of numbers if you think it's worth shooting bad for a year to win one or two shoots. It may well happen but more for "pride" if it could be called that.

As for people having big scores in the lower classes the fact that most folk gloss over now is that sporting has been softened up an awful lot over the past few years and that shrinks the gap between those at the top and a improving shooter in C/B class. There are the odd one who does it but on a steady course and an in form club shooter you would be surprised how well they can do.

And Mr P, give me a shout on facebook and if you want to get into AA we can have a chat.

 

Ed

 

Can we form a queue for this ED??

[EdSolomons]

I'm here all week!!

[Ian E]

Why can I feel my ears burning :look:

Edited July 25, 2011 by Ian E

[bakerboy]

I agree with Mr Potter about the economics of shooting many low scores, in the hope that you can pull a high score out of the bag at will. Can't see it happening - widespread. The odd idiot might just do it. They must be truly sad.

 

I have seen people rip up their entry without handing in a card, in order to retain a higher classification - at Registered events.

I do not know how the CPSA work, but surely the missing card scam is easy to sort out,

 

1) self duplicating score cards the scorer on the final stand retains the copy.

 

2) failure to return a card results in one or more of the following, impose a fine/ shooters average or best score recorded or handicapped at they next event entered.

 

3) automatically dropped a class after "x" no of missing cards

 

Only the thoughts from some who does not shoot CPSA, I am now sitting back with my tin hat on.

Edited July 25, 2011 by bakerboy

[Azzurri]

Azzurri,

 

That doesn't sound like sandbagging but plain old fashioned CHEATING.

 

Mr Potter

 

Dead right mate,either way it's wrong and should be stamped on

 

Azzurri.

[HDAV]

I know nowt about shooting competatively so excuse me for throwing the following thought in ;

Maybe there should be a penalty of some kind for trying to manipulate the score/rankings by NOT submitting a scorecard IF you have registered as an entrant ?

I agree i think a no card having put your name down should be a 0 score

[Mr Potter]

I agree i think a no card having put your name down should be a 0 score

Well that's exactly the same as not handing your card in

 

This shouldn't be an issue as according to CPSA rules at a registered shoot the ground should use a master sheet but not all of them do.

 

So to stop traditional sandbagging to get in a lower class, no card should be scored as a full house i.e. 100 x 100. This though would be perfect for those who want to sandbag upward i.e. want to retain or get into a higher class than they should be and I suspect that, certainly in English Sporting, this is the most common reason for "losing" a card.

 

I know the CPSA do write a very strongly worded letter to members who do not hand their cards in after signing onto a registered shoot. A friend of mine entered a competition at a local ground when he was recovering from flu, he shot 3 or 4 stands, felt absolutely awful, asked another friend to tell the ground owner what was happening, got into his car and straight home. Thought no more about it until about 3 weeks later got a nasty letter virtually accusing him of cheating! Suspect the ground hadn't passed on his reason and my mate was furious, absolutely livid to the point that he let his membership lapse and has never re-joined (he was in his late 70's) and just doesn't bother with competitions any more. This broad brush approach has cost them x number of years in membership fees. Never found out if the ground was reprimanded for no master card!!

 

Mr Potter

[timps]

There is already a ruling on misplaced scorecards

 

1st Offence: A listing on the CPSA website and in Pull! Magazine for a period of three months.

2nd Offence: Suspension from the CPSA for a period of three months.

3rd Offence: A ban from CPSA membership for a period of 12 months after which a re-application for membership will be required.

 

And the score will be marked a 0 on the CPSA web site but not count to their averages.

 

The trouble is some grounds are complicit in not informing the CPSA that the competitors card has gone missing, whether this is not to upset shooters so they come back again or for other reasons but it does happen.

 

I know I got a nasty letter from the CPSA informing me I had failed to hand in a score card, but then so did three other guys I had shot with. I did complain to the CPSA that I and the others had handed them in and she did let it drop that I was not the first person that had rang in to complain that day ( I was the first of my group) and there was obviously an issue.

 

The trouble was the ground had made a simple mistake due to competitors numbers on the top of the score card not matching up to the numbers on the signing on sheet and we had gone birds only so not in the prize money for them to bother looking us up.

 

I know when I next went to the ground I told them I did not like getting letters like that off the CPSA because of their mistakes & he was very embarrassed.

 

I also told the CPSA I did not like the tone of the letter accusing me of cheating without checking with me first if there was a valid explanation, their answer was its not their fault its the ground for telling them no card was handed in.

If the letter had been worded asking me if there was a reason why my card had not been handed in and could I contact them then I would not have been as angry as the off with your head you cheating scum letter I received.

 

With your comment about the master sheet Andrew I suspect it is the same ground as your friend.

 

The letter did make me feel like a cheat and I was furious about the tone of it and let the ground owners know, whether that would ever affect them reporting 'lost' cards to the CPSA in future I don't know, but if enough people like me and your friend complained to them then it would make them think twice I feel.

 

[Mungler]

But that's the other problem if you were going to cheat it looks like you only need kick up a fuss and it all goes away anyway?

 

Incidentally I'm not suggesting Timps of cheating

 

Anyone got any stats for members who have been suspended or banned by the Cpsa?

[Chard]

There is already a ruling on misplaced scorecards

 

1st Offence: A listing on the CPSA website and in Pull! Magazine for a period of three months.

2nd Offence: Suspension from the CPSA for a period of three months.

3rd Offence: A ban from CPSA membership for a period of 12 months after which a re-application for membership will be required.

 

 

How come you know so much about the rules, Gimperley? Are you a latent North Region CPSA representative?

[timps]

How come you know so much about the rules, Gimperley? Are you a latent North Region CPSA representative?

 

Its not that difficult to read a rule book, I know for you it is difficult to stay 'dry' through out the day and you only read the back of a werther's original packet. . Seriously though, I spent most of my life racing motorbikes of one form or another at a half decent level and you had to know the technical rules as there was a lot of cheating and reporting for alleged infringements going on in that sport and it paid to know the rules well, so I just did the same for CPSA.

 

 

But that's the other problem if you were going to cheat it looks like you only need kick up a fuss and it all goes away anyway?

 

Incidentally I'm not suggesting Timps of cheating

 

Anyone got any stats for members who have been suspended or banned by the Cpsa?

 

The thing is I could be a cheat,:yp: they have only our word that we handed the cards in and anyone who receives one of those letters is going to swear blind they handed the card in with no proof you didn't.

 

The problem with registered shooting is it has a small amount of regular participants and the ground owner now knows he p!ssed off 4 regular shooters enough that they nearly never came back. Is he going to risk it when it could be a sandbagger, mistake on the grounds part or a valid reason like illness or emergency, either way he could be loosing money over it with no real benefit to the ground, its much easier for him to cross the shooter of the list and deal with a lack of score enquiry than an alleged cheating one.

 

I only ever heard of one member being banned and that was for doctoring a score card some time back.

[Ian E]

Perfect opportunity to point out there is a;

 

CPSA English Sporting Referees course held at Manchester Clay Shooting Club (Worsley) on Saturday 27th August 2011.

 

The course is open to all current CPSA members and costs £65 including theory and practical sessions as well as refreshments and lunch.

 

Anyone interested in taking part can do so by contacting Clare Alger on either 01483 485412 or via clare@cpsa.co.uk

 

Or visit the CPSA web site and follow the links to Events - Courses

 

For those you are interested in knowing and understanding the finer points of the general rules and English sporting, this the perfect course.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Ian E

[bakerboy]

I do not want to seem negative, but what is the point of learning and understanding the rules, if, as has mentioned the CPSA do not enforce them.

A referee with no back up is pointless.

[Ian E]

I do not know how the CPSA work

 

 

Perfect opportunity to learn some information and ask questions

[Mr Potter]

Perfect opportunity to point out there is a;

 

CPSA English Sporting Referees course held at Manchester Clay Shooting Club (Worsley) on Saturday 27th August 2011.

 

The course is open to all current CPSA members and costs £65 including theory and practical sessions as well as refreshments and lunch.

 

Anyone interested in taking part can do so by contacting Clare Alger on either 01483 485412 or via clare@cpsa.co.uk

 

Or visit the CPSA web site and follow the links to Events - Courses

 

For those you are interested in knowing and understanding the finer points of the general rules and English sporting, this the perfect course.

 

Thanks for the heads up Ian but I don't think I'll bother (Timps though could well be interested) I'll just carry on making the rules up to suit myself, seems to have worked well enough for all these years

 

Mr Potter

[Mungler]

Perfect opportunity to learn some information and ask questions

 

As part of a wider objective which is pointless (sic. Bakerboy's post), oh and to part with £65.

 

Bargain, not.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Mungler

[bakerboy]

Perfect opportunity to learn some information and ask questions

I will place it on my list of things to do in retirement (I am retired).

I wonder whether I can get sponsorship for the course, it is a lot to come out of my pension for no real benefit as I do not shoot registered CPSA shoots, I prefer the laid back haybalers where I can enjoy myself without any worry about being classified.

[EdSolomons]

There are dozens of people who should have lifetime bans, but nothing gets done as they don't like the trouble. I only know of one ban for cheating and they ended up letting him back in! Any form of cheating should be a lifetime ban, no question. It would be one small step to making the sport a bit less of an amateurish joke.

[Gordon R]

It is not a question of just failing to hand in a card - I am aware that some shooters just get their entry cancelled as if it never happened. This was quite a few years ago, but it stuck in my throat when I see one particular individual still ranked quite highly.

[Mr Potter]

It is not a question of just failing to hand in a card - I am aware that some shooters just get their entry cancelled as if it never happened. This was quite a few years ago, but it stuck in my throat when I see one particular individual still ranked quite highly.

Gordon,

 

Was that because his score was too high, i.e. sandbagging to get down a class or stay in a class lower than their true ability almost certainly to make money at some point in the future. Or was it because the score was too low (but not possibly low enough to be discarded under the 10% rule) and the shooter didn't want to dropped a class, pride or vanity.

 

The former is despicable and the perpetrator should have the book thrown at him or her (see, who said I wasn't politically correct?) but, in my not so humble opinion, the second is not that severe a crime! If someone is shooting in a class above their current ability they are :-

Unlikely to win so they are, assuming they enter the competition, adding to the prize fund.

a. Allowing a bigger purse in the class they end up shooting in.

b. Allowing another person to take a prize in the lower class they should be in.

 

OK so they have broken a rule and should be reprimanded but other than kidding no-one other than themselves about their true abilities, no real harm has been done.

 

Mr Potter

[sodit]

Absolute codswallop - I'm living proof of this ;-)

 

 

Thats two of us

[Chard]

Gordon,

 

Was that because his score was too high, i.e. sandbagging to get down a class or stay in a class lower than their true ability almost certainly to make money at some point in the future. Or was it because the score was too low (but not possibly low enough to be discarded under the 10% rule) and the shooter didn't want to dropped a class, pride or vanity.

 

The former is despicable and the perpetrator should have the book thrown at him or her (see, who said I wasn't politically correct?) but, in my not so humble opinion, the second is not that severe a crime! If someone is shooting in a class above their current ability they are :-

Unlikely to win so they are, assuming they enter the competition, adding to the prize fund.

a. Allowing a bigger purse in the class they end up shooting in.

b. Allowing another person to take a prize in the lower class they should be in.

 

OK so they have broken a rule and should be reprimanded but other than kidding no-one other than themselves about their true abilities, no real harm has been done.

 

Mr Potter

 

 

Agreed Mr P. I have never understood all the hysterical whining about "reverse sandbagging".

 

For it to be a crime, there needs to be a victim and I don't see who suffers from reverse sandbagging, with the possible exception being that they may prevent a rising individual from getting into a higher class. As the classes seem to be divided by percentage of shooters, it could be that if a reverse sandbagger keeps himself in AA Class artificially to massage his ego, he is taking up one of the small percentage of places allocated for AA Class (is it top 5% of shooters? Can't remember).

 

No big deal though. It's sandbaggers grabbing the cash who are the ones that need sorting out.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Chard

[leaseone]

I Sandbagged for 12 months just to prove it could easily be done I dropped a class (I never took any prize money as I had told the the shoot owner what I was doing) it was a bit hard to miss the last pair on 14 stands, so I managed to be a minimum of 28 down each shoot.Does not take much to get into a lower class I also told someone at the CPSA but nothing happened I was only asked at 1 shoot 'why did you miss that' by a ref.

[Dunkield]

Well that's a new excuse to add to the book, "why did you miss so many" "I am on lifetimes sandbagging experiment"