Boromir Posted September 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 That first set of stats unzips the flies, flops out the member and urinates all over any argument about the public sector Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharf Rat Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 But making use of the tax free allowance and lower tax bands makes you guilty of 'tax avoidance' which you claim is losing the country £25 billion a year. And Ireland had very low _corporate_ tax rates to attract investment, not low personal rates. Nial. Blimey, you know my tax band? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharf Rat Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 These make for interesting reading http://www.reform.co.uk/portals/0/Documents/Public%20Sector%20Productivity%20v2.pdf http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/public_sector/article6974029.ece Look at productivity, pay and pension comparisons between public and private sector. Comparing public and private sector productivity is daft. Manufacturing always outsrips all other sectors and is almost exclusively private. The skills level for public sector workers is much higher - how do you measure the output of a teacher/surgeon/firefighter? If you are an outfit like Reform you are making an ideological case - not an economic one... You could have sited the European Working Conditions Observatory instead: The report identified differences in absenteeism trends between the UK’s private and public sectors. The survey found that 41% of public sector workers compared with 36% of those in the private sector reported going to work in the previous year ‘when too ill to do so’. The survey also found that only 11% of public sector workers had never been to work ‘when too ill to do so’. This is two percentage points lower than the figure of 13% for all respondents. It was found that public sector workers were more likely than private sector workers to avoid absence because they ‘didn’t want to give colleagues extra work’. On the other hand, private sector workers were more likely than public sector workers to avoid absence because they ‘didn’t want to let (their) employer down’. The TUC report also cited research carried out by the UK Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development (CIPD), which found that public sector workers report long-term sickness absence more often than private sector workers. This was attributed to the existence of poorer private sector sick pay arrangements and the existence of greater occupational hazards in public sector occupations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharf Rat Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 Are you saying that somebody has been able to predict GDP in 2060? What is that in £'s not percentage (adjusted for inflation if you wish). Try Googling Hutton Report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 Blimey, you know my tax band? No, you're showing your lack of logic. If you earn _any_ money and avail yourself of the tax free limit and lower tax bands you're guilty of tax avoidance, which you previously claimed is costing the country £26 billion/annum. This throws into doubt all your other figures and arguments. Nial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharf Rat Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 No, you're showing your lack of logic. If you earn _any_ money and avail yourself of the tax free limit and lower tax bands you're guilty of tax avoidance, which you previously claimed is costing the country £26 billion/annum. This throws into doubt all your other figures and arguments. Nial. Nial, I was joking mate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted September 16, 2011 Report Share Posted September 16, 2011 Hate to go off topic, but had Comrade Scargill been a little more flexible in 1984 then perhaps we would have still had a coal industry. Both my uncles worked for the NUM and both are of the opinion that the strike wasn't about coal but Scargill's one man crusade against the Tory govt who he always called a police state. Was not the closed shop & secondary picketing perfect examples of a police state?. In the early days, the unions did a great job, getting the working man his rights and improvement in living conditions, thye just got too powerful and too greedy. As for the money to support the failed banks, the govt ( much as i dislike labour) had no choice. Had there been a run on the banks, the wall street crash could have looked like a small scrap... Lets get real here. As in 1979, the country is skint, we need to cut,same as in our own personal accounts. It's all cyclical and will do the same again for another 28 years as we have done since 1979. Sadly we haven't got somone with the balls of Maggie... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wharf Rat Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Hate to go off topic, but had Comrade Scargill been a little more flexible in 1984 then perhaps we would have still had a coal industry. Both my uncles worked for the NUM and both are of the opinion that the strike wasn't about coal but Scargill's one man crusade against the Tory govt who he always called a police state. Was not the closed shop & secondary picketing perfect examples of a police state?. In the early days, the unions did a great job, getting the working man his rights and improvement in living conditions, thye just got too powerful and too greedy. As for the money to support the failed banks, the govt ( much as i dislike labour) had no choice. Had there been a run on the banks, the wall street crash could have looked like a small scrap... Lets get real here. As in 1979, the country is skint, we need to cut,same as in our own personal accounts. It's all cyclical and will do the same again for another 28 years as we have done since 1979. Sadly we haven't got somone with the balls of Maggie... Interesting what you say Keg. I always thought Arthur was an optimist. He reckoned that the UK coal industry would be decimated but it wasn't. More like 90% down the tubes... The French took 10 years to close their pits down, and all the miners were offered re-training in other trades so that areas that relied on coal wouldn't suddenly nosedive into two/three decade long depresions. Thing is; we import coal from places like Colombia that use child labour to extract it; I would rather pay extra for my electric bill than have ten year olds supplying my coal. As for the country being skint. We are not. UK PLC is alive and well and doing OK compared to other people; and ourselves for most of the last century. We are behind the Germans in recovering, but they didn't declare war on their working people in the 1980s like we did and still have some manufacturing base left... We are also not as far in hock as we were for most of the past century. We finished paying for WWI in 2006, you can restructure all you want with credit like ours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterboy Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 Interesting what you say Keg. I always thought Arthur was an optimist. He reckoned that the UK coal industry would be decimated but it wasn't. More like 90% down the tubes... The French took 10 years to close their pits down, and all the miners were offered re-training in other trades so that areas that relied on coal wouldn't suddenly nosedive into two/three decade long depresions. Thing is; we import coal from places like Colombia that use child labour to extract it; I would rather pay extra for my electric bill than have ten year olds supplying my coal. As for the country being skint. We are not. UK PLC is alive and well and doing OK compared to other people; and ourselves for most of the last century. We are behind the Germans in recovering, but they didn't declare war on their working people in the 1980s like we did and still have some manufacturing base left... We are also not as far in hock as we were for most of the past century. We finished paying for WWI in 2006, you can restructure all you want with credit like ours. Totally agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digger Posted September 17, 2011 Report Share Posted September 17, 2011 I voted not striking; although I think if it goes ahead we can give the jobs to eastern Europeans who will do the job twice as well at half the cost; unions are soo out of date its as laughable as the thought any action has actually saved jobs in the last twenty is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marktattoo Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Why poeple go on strike when unemployment is sky high is interesting; at least they ave a job. Because the way employers are acting reducing benifits and wages it wont pay to work before long and everybody will be on minimum wage. People signed contracts for pensions and paid into their pensions for employers to turn round and say oh by the way you aint getting what you thought you where and what we promised it stinks. You dont go into a shop agree to purchase a product at the advertised price for the shopkeeper to put what ever price he wants in the till and except you to pay it without question or argument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterboy Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I voted not striking; although I think if it goes ahead we can give the jobs to eastern Europeans who will do the job twice as well at half the cost; unions are soo out of date its as laughable as the thought any action has actually saved jobs in the last twenty is But will they do the job as well, I worked with a firm who employed supposedly quaified electricials (polish), they each had a leather school bag with one lump hammer, a chisel, a few screw drivers and a pair of pliers. They were very good at chasing in but had no idea how to wire a house All these eastern europeans and others are doing are lowering our standard of work (and living standards), they are making britain a third world country By the way, after a few months, the poles were no more, they cost the firm alot of money to put things right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scooterboy Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 I was also a member of a the CWU but alot of my colleges werent, they didn`t agree with striking for better pay and working conditions but they never moaned when they got an extra day holiday and they all accepted each pay rise that the CWU fought for each year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willxx Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 someone mentioned several pages back- can't be bothered trawling back now- that it was overspending by people who expected their houses to cover it that had contributed to the crisis, I wouldn't disagree - plenty people have run up credit cards debts, loans, car finance, large mortgages etc and are now struggling, some of these people may be employed in the public sector, some may be self employed, some may be employers and some employees. I think we have to accept that it has happened and many people are struggling so they are quite rightly frightened by the threat of more pressure on their paypackets for most people their paypacket stretches from one payday to the next with nothing left over - the multimillionaires (we're all in this together ) in the government are not offering any alleviation to their worries so what else can they do? I've suggested previously that the govt should offer low interest loans, a la student loans, to tax payers struggling to get out of debt, low mortgage rates are no good to someone in rented accommodation with loans or credit card debts - (no more "its their own fault" comments please - thats taken as read), we were quick enough to bail out the banks when they "over extended" themselves - why not support tax paying working people who have done similar? If this was available people may feel like we really are all in it together and we can all get out of it together? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Yeah we are all in it together, right? that's why we have to create 2000 posts to drag in the charlatans who cheat the system as bad as your so-called benefit scroungers, it's a start lets see the net widen to reach the company tax exempt washing machine! and the wife oops secretary http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/extra-inspectors-recruited-to-target-wealthy-tax-avoiders-2356573.html KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berettaman Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Many public sector workers, accepted the fact that they are poorly paid but had decent pension/ benefit packages, changing the goalposts (for some just when their retirement would be due) is not on. Public sector workers did not create the financial mess we are in, poker tactic bankers (spelt with a W)and inept govt did, now they want to hit joe soap? if they really want to save money, they could start by limiting or even stopping altogether housing benefit and income support to non nationals who see this country as a soft touch and who have made no net contribution to the welfare state I.E. earned that benefit. KW Monkey hanger or not(toungue in cheek)this man takes the words from my mouth Bm :good: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 There are too many people employed in the public sector and the public sector is working inefficiently in the extreme. You can moan about everything else, but it takes an economic crisis for both the private and public sectors to look within and question why 4 people are doing a job that isn't required / doesn't really exist or which can be done by 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 There are too many people employed in the public sector and the public sector is working inefficiently in the extreme. You can moan about everything else, but it takes an economic crisis for both the private and public sectors to look within and question why 4 people are doing a job that isn't required / doesn't really exist or which can be done by 1. Absolutely true Andy ,but remember that the Mandarins of white hall are more powerful than the Government and are there for the long term . Successive changes of government is just an annoyance to them . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Wharfe Rat, agree with you 100% with what you say about child labour, but i find it hard to understand why it costs us that much more to produce cola than other countries. Taking out the wage differences ( obviously child labour will be cheap and some countries pay a poor wage anyway , the sheer cost of shipping and handling must make it more economical to produce here. I think we all agree that we would pay more for our energy to avoid child labour, yet we all accept that we are subsidising the con that is wind and solar. We took a while to close down the pits and the money that was put into south yorkshire ( can't comment on other mining areas as no family live there they all live in or near Barnsley)both from the uk and eu was huge but some people will not change ( i nclude my family in that). I don't agree that we declared war on our working people. We just could not cary on as we were . The IMF refused to lend us any more money under Callaghan and the unions really did try and run the country. We are skint and whilst we are in a better position that many contries, we cannot afford to continue to spend as we have been, govt money is not endlesss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 We are skint and whilst we are in a better position that many contries, we cannot afford to continue to spend as we have been, govt money is not endlesss seems they think it is? KW http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/all/7238833/this-is-going-to-hurt.thtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 Whether or not the strikes are right, I bet Bob Crowe and all the other union leaders won`t lose pay while their members are striking! What has the RMT got to do with it? Their pensions are not related to any of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 What has the RMT got to do with it? Their pensions are not related to any of this. dont spoil a bit of union bashing with things like facts. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM Posted September 18, 2011 Report Share Posted September 18, 2011 dont spoil a bit of union bashing with things like facts. KW hahaha, ok. Yeah, the bloody RMT are at it again. wish they would stop what it is they are doing hhahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keg Posted September 19, 2011 Report Share Posted September 19, 2011 Bob Crowe, another socialist in the mould of King Arthur Scargill. I go back to my earlier point about the fairness of secondary picketing and closed shop- very democratic. The sad thing is the unions were so good for thw working population, now it's just egos. And always good to bash unions :-0 Kdubya, noticed on another thread you are about to retire ( lucky man!), what do you do for a living sir? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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