Oops Missed Again Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Anyone had any experience loading and using .223 subsonic ammo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyotemaster Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Anyone had any experience loading and using .223 subsonic ammo Be careful and be sure to wear safety glasses if you attempt this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oops Missed Again Posted October 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Be careful and be sure to wear safety glasses if you attempt this. Why is that? is it a dirty job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 I load .308 subsonic, 10gr of Trail Boss and 150gr round nose as my usual A-Max tend to keyhole at that speed. Hodgdon suggest a max of 4gr and a 55gr bullet, Trail Boss is an excellent choice as it's a large fluffy powder which fills cases nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyotemaster Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 Well I was actually referring to the safety of the proposition as it has cost a few shooters their eyesight. The phenomena called detonation occurs when too little powder is used inside a case and the mixture is just suitable for an explosion instead of a controlled burn. I would research this inclination very carefully before departing upon it and I am being completely serious. I was thinking subsonic for my .17 Rem (for squirrels) but after some research abandon the idea completely. You only get 2 of some parts of your anatomy that are round don't let one pair damage the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yankeedoodlepigeon Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 What would you shoot at with sub-sonic .308 loads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 (edited) It's Secondary Detonation and is a combination of powder type (usually double base), burn rate and the position of the smaller amounts of powder in the larger calibre cases. Hodgdon list approved subsonic loads for .223 and .308, 10gr of Trail Boss fills about 70% of a .308 case whereas 8gr of TiteGroup fills considerably less but is still an approved load due to it being a fast single base powder with excellent positional properties. I've loaded and shot both with good results, the best being with Trail Boss. Lapua do specific SubSonic bullets but generally a flat base round nose tends to work best as they stabilise better at lower speds. Uses are many, shooting near populated areas, shooting at night, avoiding scaring off other nearby prey etc. Edit. Just to add ... Always remove your suppressor before trying loads as if they keyhole badly you could end up with a very nasty mess not to mention injury!. Edited October 17, 2011 by phaedra1106 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleeh Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 It's Secondary Detonation and is a combination of powder type (usually double base), burn rate and the position of the smaller amounts of powder in the larger calibre cases. Hodgdon list approved subsonic loads for .223 and .308, 10gr of Trail Boss fills about 70% of a .308 case whereas 8gr of TiteGroup fills considerably less but is still an approved load due to it being a fast single base powder with excellent positional properties. I've loaded and shot both with good results, the best being with Trail Boss. Lapua do specific SubSonic bullets but generally a flat base round nose tends to work best as they stabilise better at lower speds. Uses are many, shooting near populated areas, shooting at night, avoiding scaring off other nearby prey etc. Edit. Just to add ... Always remove your suppressor before trying loads as if they keyhole badly you could end up with a very nasty mess not to mention injury!. What sort of range/penetration do you get off a .308 sub? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 I've shot targets up to 200m without a problem, at 100m it was about 10" lower than my normal loads. I don't shoot live quarry (yet) but I've loaded subs for a friend who wanted to take a few foxes very quietly as they were fairly close to a large posh housing estate (I should say that he is a very experienced shooter and obviously only taking safe shots), I'm sure he said he shot between 80 and 100yds and had clean kills without over penetration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark g Posted October 17, 2011 Report Share Posted October 17, 2011 I've shot targets up to 200m without a problem, at 100m it was about 10" lower than my normal loads. I don't shoot live quarry (yet) but I've loaded subs for a friend who wanted to take a few foxes very quietly as they were fairly close to a large posh housing estate (I should say that he is a very experienced shooter and obviously only taking safe shots), I'm sure he said he shot between 80 and 100yds and had clean kills without over penetration. you can do that with a .22 or a 17hmr without a 10 inch drop to think about centrefire subsonic rounds kind of defeat the original purpose, which is essentialy to have a bullet fly as fast and flat as possible, the hornet may be a useful tool for your friend, slow heavy bullets ricochet more and although quieter are not as safe as a light fast bullet which will break up rather than ricochet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phaedra1106 Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 I'm sure you're right but as it was a one off job some free subsonic rounds off me was a lot cheaper than another rifle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 A .22lr sub offers about 80ft-lbs at the muzzle if I remember right. A 180gr .308 doing the same speed will give you around 450ft-lbs. That's getting near .22 Hornet energy with barely a sound. I can see where that could be useful. Can you shoot at 100 yards with a .22lr without thinking about drop? He said 10" drop compared to his normal loads. All you have to do is zero with the subs and you don't have anything to think about other than what you would with the .22. Shot placement will be a little less critical on a Fox than it would be with a .22lr. As for making the loads, all you'd need to lay out on is a tub of powder. If you're not doing it often £40 for powder is better than a complete .22lr, scope and mod combo. I'd love to work out some sub loads for my Hornet. I'd sell the LR as I rarely use it other than for braining cage trapped Foxes! I wouldn't even need to re-zero my scope for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 A .22lr sub offers about 80ft-lbs at the muzzle if I remember right. A 180gr .308 doing the same speed will give you around 450ft-lbs. That's getting near .22 Hornet energy with barely a sound. I can see where that could be useful. Can you shoot at 100 yards with a .22lr without thinking about drop? He said 10" drop compared to his normal loads. All you have to do is zero with the subs and you don't have anything to think about other than what you would with the .22. Shot placement will be a little less critical on a Fox than it would be with a .22lr. As for making the loads, all you'd need to lay out on is a tub of powder. If you're not doing it often £40 for powder is better than a complete .22lr, scope and mod combo. I'd love to work out some sub loads for my Hornet. I'd sell the LR as I rarely use it other than for braining cage trapped Foxes! I wouldn't even need to re-zero my scope for that. 45gr bullet over 11.5gr of IMR 4831 for predicted MV of 1085ft/sec with pressure at 10700 CUP and minimum COAL of 1.720". Only one load given; "start" and "never exceed" figures are the same. Source: Modern Reloading by Richard Lee, 1996 Ed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 There must be some uses for sub sonic CF ammo, but they must also be few and far between when other options are considered, and the arc on a sub .308 must be like falling off a cliff, so there is at least one negative aspect of it as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyblanco Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 you can do that with a .22 or a 17hmr without a 10 inch drop to think about You can't do it subsonic with an HMR It will be like a .22lr sub but better at distance with a hell of a lot more energy, the guy they did a documentary on shooting foxes in London used .223 subs iirc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 I'd love one of these; http://www.valkyriearms.com/delisle.htm Apparently one of the quietest firearms ever made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oops Missed Again Posted October 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 You can't do it subsonic with an HMR It will be like a .22lr sub but better at distance with a hell of a lot more energy, the guy they did a documentary on shooting foxes in London used .223 subs iirc. The reason for the original question was based on the fact my .22lr has become redundant since I got a .17hmr, unless I want something quite ie subsonics. That got me thinking, no noise but plenty of hitting power at 100 yrds. My thoughts are based solely on noise nothing else and to me a .22 subsonic is not much better than an air rifle, but a .223 would certainly have that extra punch for vermin control with little noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 (edited) The reason for the original question was based on the fact my .22lr has become redundant since I got a .17hmr, unless I want something quite ie subsonics. That got me thinking, no noise but plenty of hitting power at 100 yrds. My thoughts are based solely on noise nothing else and to me a .22 subsonic is not much better than an air rifle, but a .223 would certainly have that extra punch for vermin control with little noise. If it is sub sonic then it will be the same speed as your .22lr and will have little or no advantage at 100 yards over the .22lr with subs. 40g sub sonic .22lr will have the same arc and energy as a 40g sub sonic .223 (lets forget BC for simplicity) and a 75g sub sonic .223 will have a terrible arc and make hitting things a nightmare, just where are you seeing an advantage of a .223 sub over a .22lr sub? Apart from anything else just what sort of a twist do you expect down the barrel of your .223 to stabalise your 1080ft sec(ish) subs, which will be used to circa 3300ft sec ammo? Edited October 18, 2011 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oops Missed Again Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) If it is sub sonic then it will be the same speed as your .22lr and will have little or no advantage at 100 yards over the .22lr with subs. 40g sub sonic .22lr will have the same arc and energy as a 40g sub sonic .223 (lets forget BC for simplicity) and a 75g sub sonic .223 will have a terrible arc and make hitting things a nightmare, just where are you seeing an advantage of a .223 sub over a .22lr sub? Apart from anything else just what sort of a twist do you expect down the barrel of your .223 to stabalise your 1080ft sec(ish) subs, which will be used to circa 3300ft sec ammo? 22lr 40 grain at 1050 fps gives you 97 ft-lbs. A 70 grain 223 at 1050 fps is 170 ft-lbs http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/136315/extreme-shock-subsonic-covert-ops-specialty-ammunition-223-remington-100-grain-asp-full-cycling-box-of-20 Now that could be handy for poaching Edited October 19, 2011 by Oops Missed Again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 My thoughts are based solely on noise nothing else ...... Not aimed at you but I would imagine that it is a sole consideration for poachers too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salukiwhippet Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Velocity dictates trajectory, not bullet wieght. A 150grainer at 1050 will have the same (actually slightly better due to better BC) trajectory as a 40 at the same velocity. James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardo Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I'd love one of these; http://www.valkyriearms.com/delisle.htm Apparently one of the quietest firearms ever made. i once fired a De Lisle back around 1987, amazing piece of kit for it's time (Hill's Small Arms in Brentford had one). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oops Missed Again Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Not aimed at you but I would imagine that it is a sole consideration for poachers too. http://www.midwayusa...cling-box-of-20 Now that could be handy for poaching Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyblanco Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I would have thought the heavier bullet would hold the velocity for much longer than the lr, obviously it would still be as loopy as hell due to the low muzzle velocity but for a short range fox gun the .308 could be a winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oops Missed Again Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Is anyone out there shooting subsonic centre fire?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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