243 and Deer

[wymberley]

When in Rome....

[Mr_Logic]

We've had this debate a thousand times and I expect a few more to come. Simple fact is that if you can shoot straight, 243 will take out any UK deer humanely.

 

If you can't shoot worth a damn then take a cannon and shoot the deer in the ****!

 

Sorry double post, damn phone!

[Blunderbust]

We've had this debate a thousand times and I expect a few more to come. Simple fact is that if you can shoot straight, 243 will take out any UK deer humanely.

 

If you can't shoot worth a damn then take a cannon and shoot the deer in the ****!

 

Sorry double post, damn phone!

Might be a double post, but very true. I know that I can take Reds with my .243 using Geco 105 gr SP's out to 200 meteres aiming 3" above the normal POA, hit them in the right place and they drop stone dead.

[Mr_Logic]

Coz we is talking hunting bullets- BC is substantially better on the bigger cals in hunting bullets once you get over 6mm

Not true.

 

6mm 100gr SBT:

 

.430 @ 2800 fps and above

.419 between 2800 and 2200 fps

.397 between 2200 and 1700 fps

.385 @ 1700 fps and below

 

30 cal 150gr SBT:

 

.380 @ 2600 fps and above

.368 between 2600 and 1800 fps

.360 @ 1800 fps and below

 

Info courtesy Sierra's website. The Berger 105 VLD hunting is .532.

 

The 243 will also shoot flatter and with less recoil, so there is a greater chance of that bullet being placed accurately.

[Dekers]

An interesting article in the BASC magazine just put through my door . Hind stalking in Scotland , if you decide to shoot hinds in Scotland and turn up with a .243 dont be surprised if the estate insist that you use one of their .270 or .308 . These people should know . I know of three estates in Norfolk that wont allow the .243 for shooting deer .

 

Harnser .

 

Come on Harnser, you are talking Estate shooting with clients the Estate has no knowledge of!

 

They give them a cannon to use in the hope that however hopeless a shot they are, the chances are they may do enough damage to slow the deer down with a bigger/more powerful calibre!

 

NOTHING in this country will stay upright with the RIGHT .243 in the RIGHT place!

 

ATB!

[kent]

Not true.

 

6mm 100gr SBT:

 

.430 @ 2800 fps and above

.419 between 2800 and 2200 fps

.397 between 2200 and 1700 fps

.385 @ 1700 fps and below

 

30 cal 150gr SBT:

 

.380 @ 2600 fps and above

.368 between 2600 and 1800 fps

.360 @ 1800 fps and below

 

Info courtesy Sierra's website. The Berger 105 VLD hunting is .532.

 

The 243 will also shoot flatter and with less recoil, so there is a greater chance of that bullet being placed accurately.

 

Oh it is true, just look for the highest bc cal bullets rather than compare one example and pick the highest extreame in 6mm (99% of factory .243 wont shoot a VLD worth a jot anyhow ). Also look at 7mm, 6.5mm .270 my comments were towards 6mm v the bigger cals and it is somewhat a generalisation. for example 100grn nosler partition 6mm .384 same bullet 140grn 6.5 is .490 .270 150grn .465 7mm 175grn .519 30 cal 200grn .481. Just depends on what you pick

 

Bc is length against width and formulation of shape thats why the vld is so darn long and hard to mag feed

[nuttyspaniel]

We've had this debate a thousand times and I expect a few more to come. Simple fact is that if you can shoot straight, 243 will take out any UK deer humanely.

 

If you can't shoot worth a damn then take a cannon and shoot the deer in the ****!

 

 

So So true. :good:

[njc110381]

I don't think this arguement will ever come to a close as both parties are right. A .243 will down anything in the UK and most other places but at the same timke it can struggle to meet legal energy requirements with heavy bullets. Both those statements are fact that nobody can argue with.

 

Some people are happy with the .243 and that's fine. Some people think that a calibre that can throw well over 100 grains with ease is better, that's also fine.

 

Personally I prefer something heavier. Lets face it I push the 6.5 a lot and that's not a high powered round. It's got maybe 200ft-lbs on a .243? But it throws 140gr bullets at acceptable velocity and gives an exit wound near every time. That's what I like. It's not going to make Deer any more dead but I'm happy. Generally a happy shot is a good shot.

[Redgum]

the diameter of the projectile means nothing, the weight of the bullet means more mass and and the potential to create an incresed diamiter wound cavity,for example a 150 grain bullet should create an equal wound channel in any diameter. yet ultimatly bullet selection is way more important as correct expantion in the cavity creates the fastest knock down (unfortunatly also the most meat damage so it comes down to a balance. Heavier bullet also means increased recoil and this effects the presision of the shooter from many stances adversely, again one must make a desision on balance. Mine is a 6mm these days after owning others, there is a very good case for the 6.5mm though i dont feel it offers the versitility with lighter ammo the 6mm does.

 

When i shot a lot of woodland Fallow i went 7mm believing it killed better, it certainly easier to track them without using a dog and yes a lot of the ones i shot with 6mm stood stock still for a while often taking a second shot (until i realised they were dead on thier feet from the energy expended "inside" the cavity) instead of blowing it out the other side

I don't know if anyone had done any research on differant dia bullets kent, this is only my own theory based on experience rather than research. Heavier bullets indeed increase recoil but you get that when the bullets gone, I personally don't ever recall recoil on shooting living quarry. One thing is true though, some are more recoil sensative than others and recoil anticipation may result in a pulled shot. Personally I prefer the recoil to 308 to the jumpy 243, quess its a confidence thing.

[highseas]

Didn't the late Lea Mc nally only use a 243 on Highland Reds..?

 

Served him well, he didn't have much of a problem with it, & must have shot 100's, if not 1000's in his life time.

ive used my 243 on red stags for the last 2 seasons shooting 16 beasts the biggest was 22 stone larder weight :blink: the smallest was 15 stone (forestry stags that is 15st is big for a hill red) and all have taken 90grn-100grn bullets and have all eather droped on the spot or ran no more than 20 yards most taken with high shoulder shot or neck

[kent]

I don't know if anyone had done any research on differant dia bullets kent, this is only my own theory based on experience rather than research. Heavier bullets indeed increase recoil but you get that when the bullets gone, I personally don't ever recall recoil on shooting living quarry. One thing is true though, some are more recoil sensative than others and recoil anticipation may result in a pulled shot. Personally I prefer the recoil to 308 to the jumpy 243, quess its a confidence thing.

 

no recoil happens as a result of equal and oposite reaction, it starts when the bullet leaves the case and travels up the barrel. If all recoil happened after the bullet was in free air then hard hold or soft hold etc would all be for nothing, likewise you could shoot well off the forearm like FTarget shots do. Indeed trigger dwel time,follow through etc would all be a useless exersize in futility.

As a scientific fact 308 shooting a 150 grain bullet recoils more than a .243 with a 100. Forces are greater both ways just simple science. If you find the .243 more jumpy then its down to the build of the gun not the calibre a mountain rifle will kick harder than a Varmint rifle by nature of its lighter weight.

 

.243 is actually very favoured because of its light recoiling nature making it easier to shoot from less supported stances and an ideal choice for a chambering in lightweight guns

[Redgum]

Totally right kent, Newtons 3rd law of course but FELT recoil happens when the bullet is well on its way old mate.

 

[kent]

Like i say when the bullet starts to move, it will take more than a vidio to convince me that all forces are held off by a mystical force. Try prooving this "all recoil after" theory shooting and your gonna serious stuggle

[Mr_Logic]

Oh it is true, just look for the highest bc cal bullets rather than compare one example and pick the highest extreame in 6mm (99% of factory .243 wont shoot a VLD worth a jot anyhow ). Also look at 7mm, 6.5mm .270 my comments were towards 6mm v the bigger cals and it is somewhat a generalisation. for example 100grn nosler partition 6mm .384 same bullet 140grn 6.5 is .490 .270 150grn .465 7mm 175grn .519 30 cal 200grn .481. Just depends on what you pick

 

Bc is length against width and formulation of shape thats why the vld is so darn long and hard to mag feed

That's my point - it is too general to say that bigger calibre = higher BC, that is simply not the case.

 

It MIGHT be the case depending on the comparison. My two examples were pretty standard hunting bullets - the 150gr SP in a .308 is a very standard round, as is the 100gr SP in .243 (because in Scotland your choice is that or a VLD, pretty much). Clearly it is incorrect for anyone to say you may use a .308 150SP, but then say you may not use a .243 because it is more wind sensitive when this is clearly rubbish.

 

I will never argue that a 6.5 or a 7mm is not a better deer bullet for BC and energy because they ARE better, but 243 is good enough, and better in the wind than a great number of .308 rounds. Also, who shoots a 308 with a 200gr bullet? It's very rare, even for F/TR. .300 Win Mag maybe but that's hardly a fair comparison

[Redgum]

Like i say when the bullet starts to move, it will take more than a vidio to convince me that all forces are held off by a mystical force. Try prooving this "all recoil after" theory shooting and your gonna serious stuggle

Starting to wonder if you have ever fired a gun Kent, I'm not trying to proove a recoil after theory just that by the time you feel the recoil Mr bullet is on his way otherwise you would be fighting with the gun to keep the barrel down to stop sending the bullet skyward. Tell me Kent,do you think about recoil when your shooting a deer and compensate for it ?

[Catweazle]

Tell me Kent,do you think about recoil when your shooting a deer and compensate for it ?

 

That's what adjustable sights are for.

 

To prove the point, my .357 revolver used to print lower with full power .357 loads than with .38 target loads, because the .357 had left the barrel earlier in the recoil movement.

[Scully]

That's what adjustable sights are for.

 

To prove the point, my .357 revolver used to print lower with full power .357 loads than with .38 target loads, because the .357 had left the barrel earlier in the recoil movement.

Could that not have been due to flatter trajectory because of a faster travelling bullet?The .357 case is significantly longer than .38 Special,and full weight Magnum loads would be much more powerful than the Special.Never tried it,but it's just a thought.

[kent]

Starting to wonder if you have ever fired a gun Kent, I'm not trying to proove a recoil after theory just that by the time you feel the recoil Mr bullet is on his way otherwise you would be fighting with the gun to keep the barrel down to stop sending the bullet skyward. Tell me Kent,do you think about recoil when your shooting a deer and compensate for it ?

 

Now then play nicely Think about a few things.

 

1. How can a recoil operated semi auto work?

 

2. why do bench rest guys and open f class guy spend any time making sure thier guns recoil back nice and staight the same way for each shot, are they all wasting time?

 

3. are you saying a shooter can shoot better with a heavy gun only because of the mental factor

 

4. pls explain how the law of equal and oposite reaction is suspended as the bullet is forced up the barrel

 

5. Hard hold, soft hold, free recoil all these ways are trashed by your current thoughts

 

Yes i do compensate for recoil, a rifle recoils differently from different holds- that is a well known fact to all realy experianced rifle shots. This can and does effect the POI. I can shoot a lighter recoiling gun better from an off hand stance than a heavy recoiling one- not by massive amounts but better non the less. Two shooters commonly shoot a different zero with the same gun ask any sniper team member, the reason is slight variance in hold and maybee body shape. Do not confuse muzzle flip on the exit of the gas as the full recoil effect, there are stages in recoil as far as i am conserned. The force that sqishes the bullet up the barrel must also push back Newton told us as such

 

I have heard this theory many times, sometimes from very experianced persons- yet they all contradict themselves when it comes to hold alterations or setting up thier kit on the bench so i recon it sounds good but is bad science

[Sussexboy]

Don't forget that the differences in burn rate of the propellant have a large effect on perceived recoil. I noticed this when working up a load for my .308. The slower the powder, the less "jumpy" the recoil becomes. Don't use a .243 myself, and only used one as an estate rifle when I went on a paid stalk. As other have said, you don't notice any recoil when there is a deer in your sights. Does .243 use a faster powder than .308? I'm guessing it probably does to throw the smaller pill.

[Mr_Logic]

No it uses a slower powder, H4831SC worked well for me, or H414.

[Harnser]

Come on Harnser, you are talking Estate shooting with clients the Estate has no knowledge of!

 

They give them a cannon to use in the hope that however hopeless a shot they are, the chances are they may do enough damage to slow the deer down with a bigger/more powerful calibre!

 

NOTHING in this country will stay upright with the RIGHT .243 in the RIGHT place!

 

ATB!

Nothing in this country will stay upright with a well placed sub sonic .22LR , but not the calibre for shooting deer . I am not knocking the .243 as a deer round as I have used one in the past . All I am saying is that the .270 and the .308 are better suited for the larger deer that we shoot in this country . We all know that the .243 is marginal on power for the legalality of shooting deer . The .270 and the .308 are not marginal and in my opinion are a better choice for making a clean kill . Two other very good deer calibres that I have used on deer over the years is the .303 british and the 44 magnum handgun . Two calibres that only a hand full of people on this forum have used and I will say both are superior to the .243 for large deer than the .243 . This statement I make from experiance of using these calibres in the field not like some on here who shoot their deer reading internet stories and American comics .

 

Harnser .

[kent]

Nothing in this country will stay upright with a well placed sub sonic .22LR , but not the calibre for shooting deer . I am not knocking the .243 as a deer round as I have used one in the past . All I am saying is that the .270 and the .308 are better suited for the larger deer that we shoot in this country . We all know that the .243 is marginal on power for the legalality of shooting deer . The .270 and the .308 are not marginal and in my opinion are a better choice for making a clean kill . Two other very good deer calibres that I have used on deer over the years is the .303 british and the 44 magnum handgun . Two calibres that only a hand full of people on this forum have used and I will say both are superior to the .243 for large deer than the .243 . This statement I make from experiance of using these calibres in the field not like some on here who shoot their deer reading internet stories and American comics .

 

Harnser .

 

The 44 magnum has never been legal for deer in the UK in recent times though? In law there is no such thing as "marginal" its either legal or not and the onus is on the shooter to chrono check. As regards to the deer acts it does have its failings 500 nitro express fails on speed but will certainly bob zook any deer

 

To be fair if i only shot big reds in the hills .243" wouldn't be my first choice as there is little advantage to it if shooting from well rested stances and i should want the best performance in wind i could get, power? couldn't give a monkeys as long as its legal its down to were you shoot it. I used to be in a similar state of mind as you as regards calibre, a combination of knoledge gained about terminal performance in different bullets and seeing what could be done with a .222 rem in the right hands converted me though

[Redgum]

I cant be bothered reading the lot but kent is right ad redgun is wrong. A small percentage of recoil occurs pre exit from simple momentum of the bullet, most of the recoil does come from gas exit but this is post exit.

 

Also do not forget the x grains (weight) of gas also doing y thousand feet per second!

 

Start shooting the heavy bullets and you notice the accuracy change with consistent recoil control.

Well due to the law of averages Kent has to be right sometime . I think I'm not really making my point clear,yes the physics is right but the bullet moves extremely fast. It seems I'm on my own and am the rare oddity that isnt bothered by recoil in respect to accuracy. My 308 is as, if not, more accurate than my 243, the 308 tika hunter is a light little fellow compared with the remmy 700 sat in a hogue fully alley bedded stock. A mate of mine goes to Africa a few times a year and uses a double barrel .375 H&H, he let me have a few rnds through it and it bucks a fair bit, but I was amazed that when all the dust had settled the 3 rnds had made a pretty good group when I was expecting a plane to drop out of the sky.

[Dekers]

Well due to the law of averages Kent has to be right sometime . I think I'm not really making my point clear,yes the physics is right but the bullet moves extremely fast. It seems I'm on my own and am the rare oddity that isnt bothered by recoil in respect to accuracy. My 308 is as, if not, more accurate than my 243, the 308 tika hunter is a light little fellow compared with the remmy 700 sat in a hogue fully alley bedded stock. A mate of mine goes to Africa a few times a year and uses a double barrel .375 H&H, he let me have a few rnds through it and it bucks a fair bit, but I was amazed that when all the dust had settled the 3 rnds had made a pretty good group when I was expecting a plane to drop out of the sky.

 

 

I'm not getting in the middle of this one, you guys are doing well enough on your own, but there are many reasons for accuracy, or lack of it, lets not blame it all on recoil, and my .243 T3 Hunter with 90g PRVI SP shoots identically accurately as my Rem 700 SPS Synthetic with PRVI 150g SP.

 

Both are Lite rifles!

 

 

 

Amazing how threads take on a life of there own sometimes.

 

Have fun chaps!

[kent]

Well due to the law of averages Kent has to be right sometime . I think I'm not really making my point clear,yes the physics is right but the bullet moves extremely fast. It seems I'm on my own and am the rare oddity that isnt bothered by recoil in respect to accuracy. My 308 is as, if not, more accurate than my 243, the 308 tika hunter is a light little fellow compared with the remmy 700 sat in a hogue fully alley bedded stock. A mate of mine goes to Africa a few times a year and uses a double barrel .375 H&H, he let me have a few rnds through it and it bucks a fair bit, but I was amazed that when all the dust had settled the 3 rnds had made a pretty good group when I was expecting a plane to drop out of the sky.

 

Well believe what you wish, though you are incorrect. Nobody is saying hard kicking calibres can't shoot well only that recoil (sorry part of it) occurs with the bullet still in the barrel and yes it does have an effect on accuraccy and given two identical guns (impossible) shot from less suported stances the lighter calibre will alway shoot more reliably to POA. We can manage this but we cannot avoid it and should not ignoor it. Try weighing your palls .375 (the weight is there to help with those recoil forces) look up the build weights of the even bigger guns like 500 nitro express it starts to paint a picture. competitive shooters are governed by maximum weights and try to run close to them, why? because it helps with recoil management- hence ability to shoot well. Comparing two guns on accurracy is meaningless there are more factors at play than just recoil in comparing two rifles. Do you realise Fister (despite the stupid name choice) builds some of the most competitive f-class /tactical/PR rifles i used to line up with him prior to a couple of years ago among some of the best rifle shots in the country

 

Not to put you off your new .308, its a fine round and very capable but dont tell us as a calibre it has lower recoil forces than a .243 or that recoil only occurs after the bullet leaves the barrel coz it don't, don't say POI dont change under different hold coz it does. Amount of recoil per calibre charts are freely available on the net BTW

 

Might i suggest this thread has been diverted enough, if you want to discuss it further PM me or start a thread