ferguson_tom Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 One thing i noticed when in Scotland was quite a lot of social housing, will they have enough money to support them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Simple fact, Scotland couldn't balance her books. They want out, well be careful what you wish for... You of course have evidence to base this assertion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry flashman Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Would prob both be worse off. If you split the debt between the two countries by population and then adjust for oil revenues scotland's debt would be lower as a proportion of GDP, but too reliant on oil and overall growth lower (remember 25% employed in public sector) than england so would most likely be downgraded from AAA rating and therefore have to pay more to finance it and it would escalate. England has better growth and diversification but debt stock higher and no north sea oil so may get downgraded and have same issue. Stronger together on the economic front at least I think (although you can debate who benefits most within that) treatment of RBS would be an issue, the ABN takeover was signed off by a beaming Salmond in '07 as I recall but all UK taxpayers paid for it. RBS and HBOS balance sheets x4 scottish GDP I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scolopax Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 The last sentence? Are you saying the two banks, RBS and HBOS, owe the equivalent of 4 x the Scottish GDP ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 You of course have evidence to base this assertion? Yep. Google away my friend, but the starting point is that Scotland couldn't afford the £37 billion capital injection to bail out the Scottish Banks. Oh hang on, when they're failing they're actually English banks run by Englishmen. Mind you, that's not even going anywhere near where the money would come from to pay for this lot, for starters: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Statistics/Browse/Labour-Market/TrendPublicSectorEmp Yep, that's 24% of the working population in Scotland work for the Public Sector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 The last sentence? Are you saying the two banks, RBS and HBOS, owe the equivalent of 4 x the Scottish GDP ? Would seem quite plausible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 As a mungrel or hybrid (mothers English, fathers Scottish) I sit on the fence on this one. From the last 10 pages I gather the English seem a bit sensitive/paranoid about the Scot's hating them. As a Scot (sort of) I don't hate them and quite like them. I don't know anyone who does hate them. I know plenty of people who take the mickey out of them, just as you take it out of us. My mother has come to realise that most English see Scotland in a similar vein to a county of England. You only have to listen into the BBC when they'll be speaking to reporters round the country and it's "Janet Smith in Berkshire" and "Hamish MacDougall in Scotland". Scotland from the northern most tip of Shetland to the end of the Mull of Galloway is similar in length to Berwick to Lands End. Nothing annoys me more. For thickies who don't get this point it should be "Hamish Macdougall in Strathclyde". Respect is a two way street. Vipa's assertion is that oil is all we have and once it's gone (which it will) we will be a bankrupt nation looking for a handout. I don't quite subscribe to that view. The economy has to be shifted from hydrocarbons to alternative and that has already started. Look around our coastline, look at wind records, look at our rainfall. Not the best weather to lounge on a beach but all the raw natural resources are here to allow exploitation into renewables. Next assertion, we'll end up like a failed economy like Ireland. Look inwards ladies, the UK economy is not a bed of roses. We have more debt than Greece. Control of our own interest rate is the only thing holding the ship above water. I totally agree Scottish MP's should only vote on UK matters, not English only matters. According to the posters on this thread Scotland can go it alone (taking a fair share of UK national debt) and go bankrupt when the oil runs out or our economy can remain on life support using handouts from Westminster. Not much of a choice then. I'm not an economist (and neither, I suspect, are any of you) but I do like a challenge. That challenge would be to go it alone. 60 years ago my Grandfather was a coalminer and like the rest of Scotland worked hard and voted Tory (I kid you not!). In the last 60 years socialism, amongst other things, has wrecked the Scottish economy and created a dependency culture. Going it alone would scrap that culture and force us to change/innovate. All the present situation does is keep the dependency culture going and allow the economy to stagnate. Laird Lugton in Midlothian, Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
officerdibble777 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Well done Laird Lugton in Midlothian, Scotland,a well worded post that I agree with,but be ready I fear the next round of posts will try and tear it up just like the previous 10 pages john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humperdingle Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Well done Laird Lugton in Midlothian, Scotland,a well worded post that I agree with,but be ready I fear the next round of posts will try and tear it up just like the previous 10 pages john The Englanders should just be left to argue amongst themselves... Repeating the same old arguments over and over (and over). If Scotland votes for independence, the English won't have to worry any more about Scotland taking all those subsidies, yada, yada. Oh wait... Apparently Scotland WILL still get handouts Carry on. :yp: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) As a mungrel or hybrid (mothers English, fathers Scottish) I sit on the fence on this one. From the last 10 pages I gather the English seem a bit sensitive/paranoid about the Scot's hating them. As a Scot (sort of) I don't hate them and quite like them. I don't know anyone who does hate them. I know plenty of people who take the mickey out of them, just as you take it out of us. My mother has come to realise that most English see Scotland in a similar vein to a county of England. You only have to listen into the BBC when they'll be speaking to reporters round the country and it's "Janet Smith in Berkshire" and "Hamish MacDougall in Scotland". Scotland from the northern most tip of Shetland to the end of the Mull of Galloway is similar in length to Berwick to Lands End. Nothing annoys me more. For thickies who don't get this point it should be "Hamish Macdougall in Strathclyde". Respect is a two way street. Vipa's assertion is that oil is all we have and once it's gone (which it will) we will be a bankrupt nation looking for a handout. I don't quite subscribe to that view. The economy has to be shifted from hydrocarbons to alternative and that has already started. Look around our coastline, look at wind records, look at our rainfall. Not the best weather to lounge on a beach but all the raw natural resources are here to allow exploitation into renewables. Next assertion, we'll end up like a failed economy like Ireland. Look inwards ladies, the UK economy is not a bed of roses. We have more debt than Greece. Control of our own interest rate is the only thing holding the ship above water. I totally agree Scottish MP's should only vote on UK matters, not English only matters. According to the posters on this thread Scotland can go it alone (taking a fair share of UK national debt) and go bankrupt when the oil runs out or our economy can remain on life support using handouts from Westminster. Not much of a choice then. I'm not an economist (and neither, I suspect, are any of you) but I do like a challenge. That challenge would be to go it alone. 60 years ago my Grandfather was a coalminer and like the rest of Scotland worked hard and voted Tory (I kid you not!). In the last 60 years socialism, amongst other things, has wrecked the Scottish economy and created a dependency culture. Going it alone would scrap that culture and force us to change/innovate. All the present situation does is keep the dependency culture going and allow the economy to stagnate. Laird Lugton in Midlothian, Scotland. A well ballanced post Just to qualify... I don't see fossil fuels as being Scotland's ONLY source of income but it is a big enough revenue to do possible terminal damage if, when it disappears. Remember, it is also a major employer so losing that industry would be damaging form 2 ends. Yes, Scotland is abundant with renewables but personally, and a lot of eminent scientists are with me on this, I fear renewables are not the way forward. Wind turbines for example. The number out there would have to be in the millions to have any significant impact on our future requirements without hydrocarbons and whilst it would get cheaper in time to produce the things due to economies of scale and they would no doubt become more efficient, the fact remains that it takes 100 years currently for a turbine to repay the energy debt it clocked up during production. Solar is in the same boat, it takes an awful lot of hydrocarbon energy to produce solar panels and they would probably never repay that debt during thier working life. The last report I read on solar energy stated that you would need to cover an area almost the size of California (that's very big) in solar pannels to replace the hydrocarbon energy we use today. Hydro... yep... you got plenty of that The issue with all of these renewables apart from the fact that they cost more in energy terms to manufacture, install and maintain than you get out of them, is that you can't bottle them up and sell them to China like you can with oil and gas.. electricity has a finite didtance it can be transmitted effectively. Therefore, even if all these things were in place, yes we could probably keep the lights on but as a tradeable commodity..... Anyway.... I digress... At the end of the day independence would be a disaster for all of us... United we stand and divided we fall and being 'United' is what puts the Great into Great Britain... And the Union Jack would look pants without the blue bits in! Edited January 12, 2012 by Vipa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 The Englanders should just be left to argue amongst themselves... Repeating the same old arguments over and over (and over). If Scotland votes for independence, the English won't have to worry any more about Scotland taking all those subsidies, yada, yada. Oh wait... Apparently Scotland WILL still get handouts Carry on. :yp: so, who exactly are the Scots who are allowed to vote? There is an estimated 80% of all who claim to be Scottish living elsewhere but Scotland. Do they get to vote? What about all the Sassenachs and Chinese who actually live in Scotland - do they get a vote? And, while you are pondering this maybe you could ask all those Scottish MPs who sit in English constituencies to come home now as we wouldn't want any hypocrisy would we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I'm from NI, settled in Scotland, with an English granny. Look around our coastline, look at wind records, look at our rainfall. Not the best weather to lounge on a beach but all the raw natural resources are here to allow exploitation into renewables. My worry is that renewables would/will become Scotland's second Darien Scheme... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme Renewables, especially wind, don't add up if you're looking for a reliable power supply (although I don't want to get off topic). In the last 60 years socialism, amongst other things, has wrecked the Scottish economy and created a dependency culture. Going it alone would scrap that culture and force us to change/innovate. All the present situation does is keep the dependency culture going and allow the economy to stagnate. My worry would be the length of time this transformation would take. The place could go through terrible times before things got sorted out. Nial. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I'm from NI, settled in Scotland, with an English granny. My worry is that renewables would/will become Scotland's second Darien Scheme... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme Renewables, especially wind, don't add up if you're looking for a reliable power supply (although I don't want to get off topic). My worry would be the length of time this transformation would take. The place could go through terrible times before things got sorted out. Nial. Hi Nial, With regard to renewables I was thinking more along the lines of hydro/wave. I think EDF export French electricity to the UK? With regard to transmission of electricity the EU were looking at a solar scheme for North Africa to supply the EU, not quite sure how they'd transmit it though. I agree the adjustment/transformation would be brutal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted January 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 In sweatylands defence I don't believe the market for boiled eggs wrapped in sausage meat has been fully exploited yet. Huge potential. Not much call for deep fried mars bars south of the border . Harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humperdingle Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 so, who exactly are the Scots who are allowed to vote? There is an estimated 80% of all who claim to be Scottish living elsewhere but Scotland. Do they get to vote? What about all the Sassenachs and Chinese who actually live in Scotland - do they get a vote? And, while you are pondering this maybe you could ask all those Scottish MPs who sit in English constituencies to come home now as we wouldn't want any hypocrisy would we? I'd imagine those on the electoral register in Scotland :blink: Who voted those Scottish MPs into the English constituencies? I suppose It must have been all those Scots who migrated to England just to fill their jobs and council offices? Lots of chips on shoulders needing a touch of salt Now, forgive me whilst I go claim some benefits, with Buckfast allowance, and get myself a haggis supper, followed by deep-fried Mars Bar, washed down with some Irn Bru, and sit in my tartan kilt, chatting up the English holidaymakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) so, who exactly are the Scots who are allowed to vote? There is an estimated 80% of all who claim to be Scottish living elsewhere but Scotland. Do they get to vote? What about all the Sassenachs and Chinese who actually live in Scotland - do they get a vote? And, while you are pondering this maybe you could ask all those Scottish MPs who sit in English constituencies to come home now as we wouldn't want any hypocrisy would we? In my view only people in Scotland should vote, whatever nationality they maybe. Temporary expats and diaspora should not be entitled to vote. As to your comment about Scots sitting in English constituencies if I were you I'd keep quiet as that could open up an interesting discussion with your new PW name "UKDoing puratory on the outskirts of Sheffield pending a move to FrancePoacher"........ Quite how you deem it hypocrisy I don't know? Edited January 12, 2012 by Laird Lugton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
officerdibble777 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 I'd imagine those on the electoral register in Scotland :blink: Who voted those Scottish MPs into the English constituencies? I suppose It must have been all those Scots who migrated to England just to fill their jobs and council offices? Lots of chips on shoulders needing a touch of salt Now, forgive me whilst I go claim some benefits, with Buckfast allowance, and get myself a haggis supper, followed by deep-fried Mars Bar, washed down with some Irn Bru, and sit in my tartan kilt, chatting up the English holidaymakers. fantastic :lol: :lol: your the winner Oh and don't forgrt to put your "jimmy" hat for the tourists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 To the Scots on here... This must be a hot topic in the pub or wherever.. what does the general consensus seem to be with friends, families, colleagues? Yes or No or Yes with caveats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Vipa, only 1/3 want independence. The vast vast majority of Scots don't see this as a "let's leave because the union because all the English are *****". Most folk are looking at it as "what's best for Scotland? How can we improve the economy". As I say the majority don't want it. It's a big leap, we have a shared, successful history of over 300 years in the United Kingdom. Lot's of questions, but not a lot of answers. One last thing. Scots are chippy people. Nothing get's there back up more than a Tory PM scaring them (i.e. "You'll be getting the Euro") DC has to be careful he doesn't alienate the very people he says he likes having in the union. Yesterdays statement which will have gone down well in the 'Shires played right into the hands of the SNP. Laird Lugton (The only Tory in Midlothian) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben0850 Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Im in agreement with much of what has already been posted on this topic. I do not see the costs associated with two Goverments, years of legal hassle etc as value for money! I would much rather the money be spent on the economy not massaging Fat Salmonds dirty dogging Ego! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humperdingle Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 To the Scots on here... This must be a hot topic in the pub or wherever.. what does the general consensus seem to be with friends, families, colleagues? Yes or No or Yes with caveats? Undecided. I need to see what the tubes from all sides have to say on the subject over the following two years or so. I'm also undecided on Alex Salmond. Prior to the SNP's majority, i'd always thought of him as a sleezy-looking little snotbag, but i've been paying more attention to politics in the last few years, and he seems to be quite an intelligent chap, and has had the 'upper hand', on many debates that i've seen. Time will tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nial Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Laird Lugton (The only Tory in Midlothian) No you're not, I throw my vote away too! :-) I was going to ask if you're free for a spontaneous trip to Braidwoods but have too much to do and can't really get away. And it's a lovely day for it! Nial Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laird Lugton Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 No you're not, I throw my vote away too! :-) I was going to ask if you're free for a spontaneous trip to Braidwoods but have too much to do and can't really get away. And it's a lovely day for it! Nial You have PM! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr smith Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Not much call for deep fried mars bars south of the border . Harnser I don't know there is apprently tens of thousands of jocks down there.It seems to me your chippy's a missing out on an opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted January 12, 2012 Report Share Posted January 12, 2012 Not much call for deep fried mars bars south of the border . Harnser I read that there was another delicacy doing the rounds in Scotland. Deep fried butter. Yum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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