JR1960 Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Training will never stop complacency, indeed it's more often the more experienced who become complacent. Ain't that the truth. We won't stop people we think are idiots getting guns, (everyone will be thpought an idiot by someone, so who chooses?) and we won't sadly stop some normally sane guy flipping and killing his family, guns or not. What we can do is try and stop the general popoulation associating ordinary gun owners with murderers and criminals. I know that would be a hell of an uphill struggle but if we don't start soon we won't have to worry at all in 20 years time; becasue you won't be allowed a pea shooter if we have a few more of these incidents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 It was a while ago when i realised how many muppets owned guns, that i started to agree that there should be a test for SGC and FAC applicants. That quote is at the very start of the thread. To say it is a sweeping generalisation would be charitable. To say that it was naive would also be charitable. Does it refer to legally held firearms or illegally held arms, which are the far greater problem? I suspect not. If we are to accept that the poster had a special talent and spotted "muppets who owned guns", you have to ask just what he has done about it. How easy was it for him to assess "muppets"? What is the criterion for being a muppet? Has he done anything whatsoever to put things right? Were these just people he disliked, envied or had they done something illegal or dangerous? If it was one of the first two - tough. If it was either of the last two, has he made his thoughts known to the Police? If not, why not? Every time I read garbage like that, I do wonder if these are genuine shooters who speak without thinking things through or antis. :hmm: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 I think it should be mandatory for anyone who calls their ferret TREVOR to be subject to both testing and psychological appraisal !!. In fact, on second thoughts, it should ban them from gun ownership for life. Same applies to those who have a few beers and then spout rubbish on shooting forums. My ferrets are called rupert and simon ,where do I stand . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 All ways a bit suspicious of any body who wants to ban it or to make it compulsory . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 When I applied for my FAC, my FEO wanted to know that I had shot a .243 a couple of times to learn about the safety, (he checked with the person that I had actually been out with him). Then I was also told quite thoroughly about safety, how to handle guns, safe range etc. What more can be done? They checked I'd been out, and covered the stuff themselves too in case I wasn't taught anything. I know of the same happening for .22RF for a couple of people, and when I got a shotgun cert I was told about the safety and they checked I'd shot a bit before. There are idiots out there with FAC/SGC, however I'm sure they could pass a test, if in doubt all they have to say is it's not a safe shot, say the right things and anyone will pass. It doesn't mean they'll then be safe when they go home and shoot a rifle at a crow on a tree branch etc does it? People are stupid, careless and arrogant. I do think it's the experienced shots causing danger anyway, beginners are obviously cautious and happily ask for advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PWD Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Whilst I agree there are plenty of new drivers out there that have passed a test and then drive like a ####'s anyway...do you think these people would drive any better if there was no test, and how do you think someone who has never had a lesson would get on. Choosing to drive like an #### is then a choice once you have passed test... you at least cant say you were not shown how to do it..the liability/choice is then your own,but if no one shows you how to do it right..how do you know . That's something I would at least like to see...someone who is proven to know tells them that are not experienced...if they then set forth pointing loaded guns at beaters...well what excuse can they have. We need to be shown to lead our own way forward. Next question...would you let someone who has never passed a driving test give your kids a lift to school....why not they may be the best driver in the world...only one way to find out I guess...suck it and see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoJackRussells Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Although Im dead against anymore Redtape and Bull having some kind of practical training could be a Very good idea. many times I see people turn up at the clay ground then hire a gun buy some carts and off they go! They may well have a SGC but never have used a Gun and have little idea of what their doing, OK generally someone goes and puts them straight but the problem still remains. My missus has a SGC but frankly left to Her own devices witout My guidance and Expierience God only knows the carnage that could take place! Recently I attended The BASC SAFE SHOTS course and took the wife along to attend and although i was expecting a load of old Boll.c.s it was actually just the sort of thing that could help some people.Incidentally a lot of My permissions are starting to insist on You having attended this course or You aint welcome on their land! A sign of things to come Me thinks ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 SGC and FAC are not and aren't designed to be a certificate of competence! There are plenty of training courses available if you are so inclined, if insurers start insisting in them it will change the game but not for the better IMO. Tinkering with the edges won't have any benefit, full overhaul from pre 1920 act or don't bother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 Recently I attended The BASC SAFE SHOTS course ;Incidentally a lot of My permissions are starting to insist on You having attended this course or You aint welcome on their land! A sign of things to come Me thinks ! Really? Most of the landowners I know didn't even know of the existence of BASC until I showed them my membership card,nevermind the fact they run courses! Having said that I do live in the sticks;we've only just got TV...**** all on it though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Field and Clay Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) Not a test but the CPSA also run a competency course for all types of shotgun shooters - Shotgun Skills Course one of many course they run. It can be presented to groups or run as 'one to one' by properly qualified instructors. Edited January 15, 2012 by Field and Clay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoBeRt1990 Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Your a ******.I think i put my case across pretty darned well. HaHa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperfection Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 It was a while ago when i realised how many muppets owned guns So where are all the accidents these muppets are having which warrants means testing? No more hoops for people to jump through thank you very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Gone a bit quiet hasn't he. I am shocked - NOT. :hmm: Make an outrageous post - retire to a safe distance and enjoy the fallout. Very predictable really. :no: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Gone a bit quiet hasn't he. I am shocked - NOT. :hmm: Make an outrageous post - retire to a safe distance and enjoy the fallout. Very predictable really. :no: He asked for counter arguments.....I don't see the issue with having a debate TBH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamekeeper1960 Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 You might aswell say that unless you've done at least 3 years in the armed services you cant own a gun !!!!! but then there was a sailor who went on a shooting spree!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 He asked for counter arguments.....I don't see the issue with having a debate TBH. My point was that after posting this, he doesn't appear to want to debate the matter. It begs the question as to why he posted it in the first place. If you want a genuine debate - I think the idea is basically a ploy to reduce the number of shooters, with no regard whatsoever to safety. I think it was a half baked idea, originating from the poster's startling conclusion that muppets own guns. I think more people are injured or killed with knives every year, but I don't see the clamour for knife training. I could cite other examples, but see little point, as I don't accept the original premise that a genuine debate is being sought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamekeeper1960 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Gone a bit quiet hasn't he. I am shocked - NOT. :hmm: Make an outrageous post - retire to a safe distance and enjoy the fallout. Very predictable really. :no: maybe its because he's an MP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC45 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 IMO, if you cannot spell, you should not be issued with any licence! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vampire Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 How many posts have there been over the years from us who have been granted sgc/fac asking questions on various issues that perhaps should already be known,or stuff we have learnt from others over the years of gun ownership I think the op just wanted to start a debate on the subject of 'should we sit a test',if you have never asked a question or never had anyone show you the right way to do something then you are either a numpty or a god,lets face it some training/test wouldnt go amiss for some people. Me,i would of gladly paid for training and sat a test to gain my sgc/fac as long as i got a big badge and a sticker to go in the car ! :lol: Debate going well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamekeeper1960 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 lets face it some training/test wouldnt go amiss for some people. But why just some people ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 IMHO, if you have feo's who shoot and know most of what there is to know about shooting, you cannot find a better filter for the should own and should not own. In reasonable but not excessive respect for one of Cheshire's now retired feo's, he instinctively seemed to know who was acceptable and who was not. I know these days we need words and records and all that but this FEO could have told me i was unsuitable and I would have respect for his opinion and ask myself a few questions. Its axiomatic that this guy did his job super professionally and was an invaluable resource for his force. These days we have career FEO's who intend to make inspector or who are bitter because they have been left in the firearms 'backwater'. Some people and their processes you can believe in and some just have the 'act to grind'. Sadly for local shooters our best Cheshire Feo retired maybe 2/3 years ago now. I hope he enjoys his retirement - IMHO he earned it. If we have people like he was, we dont need tests and maybe some things that have happened would not have under this type of scrutiny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted January 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 Lets not drag the ferrets name into this. "trevor" was the previous owners choice, im just saying. Anyway, yes as stated by others, i clearly didnt give this much thought, although some things people have said have been interesting to read, so thankyou. I believe i was interested as i remember reading about a proposed test at one point and i know it was quickly put asside and scrapped but i wanted to know what reason it served. Appologies for the post it was obviously crud, im sorry it obviously brushed some people up the wrong way. Intersting about positive media for the sport, i have never thought of that. Never seen "countryfile" praising the conservation that wildfowlers and others do.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onefulham Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Debate is good, healthy and well needed, what may seem a good idea, when , argued constructivley, helps us all, one thing I think we can all agree on is the licencing laws need changing, or standardising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) One point is none of use a licence we have a certificate a different thing entirely legally. Is the system due for overhaul? Yes. Does it need to be comprehensive? Yes DO the public require more legislation to make them feel safe? No Do we need current legislation and guidance to be simplified and followed consistently? Yes. Interesting point most ordinary people (none shooters but also none anti) will react in a usual pattern to most things. Those who are living in the most fear of violent crime tend to be those in lowest statistical risk bracket (older people) yet those in least fear of violent crime are those most likely to be subject to it (males under 25/30). Fear of crime is a very important factor played on by the media and the elected classes. My worry is elected police commissioners could have a negative impact on shooters for the publicity. I can almost gaurentees stop someone in the street in an urban area of the UK and ask "should people be allowed to keep guns at home?" the answer will be "No". Take the same person and explain to the details let them try out the sport and the answer will probably be "yes" I've seen/known it happen. Education is the key, I would really really like to see the CPSA and BASC NRA NSRA (with the help of its membership) and the rest stop preaching to the converted and start approaching as many schools and organisations as possible to get more people to try the sport be it target shooting (paper, polo mints, clays) or going beating on a game day etc. If we all took 3 people who had never held a gun before out for a couple of hours showed them safe handling, and let them have a go in a controlled environment and leave with a big grin then we would be 3 times stronger than we are! Edited January 18, 2012 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC45 Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 HDAV... Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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