Obstructive FAC application measures

[jaguar306]

Hi there,

bit of background about myself. I am 53 years old, married for 35years, employed as a Civil Servant and do not have as much as a parking ticket or speeding fine. I have been shooting with Air rifles from age of 11yrs, then .22 LR and full bore with the Army cadets at 13yrs and then served in the Armed Forces for 19 years including being a qualified weapons instructor and annual weapons test organiser for 10 years. I have had Shotgun certificate`s for many years and currently hold one. I held a FAC 1 certificate prior to the pistol ban. I have written permission from the local farmer to carry our vermin control on his land and have been shooting on it for several years.

 

When my FEO interviewed me for my FAC for a .22 LR for Rabbit control, he told me that I did not have sufficient experience to be allowed out on my own with such a weapon and that I would need a mentor, in fact Thames Valley Police insist on it he said. I have heard of the need for this for centre fire rifles when applying to go deer hunting but not for a rimfire. I found it insulting that he chose to ignore my long standing experience of firearms use and the fact I have been hunting small game for 40 years with shotgun and Air Rifle. My knowledge of ballistics is very good and given that I have fired tracer ammunition I know only to well how far a ricochet can travel etc. As far as he was concerned I had only used a rifle in a "controlled environment" and he wanted evidence that I was a safe and competent shot. Remember this is the man who granted my shotgun certificate.

 

You do not need to lecture me on the ballistics of .22 LR and the distances they can travel or how badly they can ricochet. I also know about .17 HMR as an alternative as well. You can take an unsafe shot with a 12 bore and wound or kill a person on the other side of a hedge. I understand the need for a decent background to stop the projectile also. However I am now forced to try and find someone who has the same calibre of weapon who is prepared to give up their time to be a Mentor to me.

 

On contacting the BASC they said that Thames Valley Police were being particularly difficult in this area and that had I lived in a different county I would not have had an issue. Also the TVP were not as willing as other forces to work with BASC. Their view (BASC) is that the FEO should walk the land with me and assess my knowledge of suitable backstops etc by posing questions. In essence "if there was a rabbit there would it be safe to take a shot"? However what is currently happening is that Police Forces want shooters to police one another. That is a very risky tactic given that a "friend" could mentor someone who is unsafe but not want to decline their application, or they might produce a letter stating they are safe to shoot unsupervised without having even seen them with a rifle. I think that is a very incestuous and potentially dangerous practice. I live in a village and I do not want people without any firearms knowledge shooting at everything that moves and endangering me or my loved ones.

 

So the situation is that I do not know anyone with a .22LR so am unable to provide a report from a mentor stating I am a safe and competent shot. This does of course suit the aims of the Police in terms of reducing gun possession. What a waste of a £50 application fee and thank you TVP for insulting me regarding my experience, common sense

and the ability to carry out vermin control by putting in place such restrictive conditions as to prevent me from doing this.

 

Anyone else have any experience in this area and I welcome your comments on this theme.

 

John

[yankeedoodlepigeon]

Join a local club you will soon find a few friends willing to lend a hand

[apache]

You live in a village and don't know anyone with a .22RF? Really? I live in a village with less than 200 adults on the electoral role and I know of at least 10 people with a .22!

 

I can't see it should be a difficult thing to do if you have all this experience. Incidentally you don't waste your £50, if they don't grant the certificate you get your money back

[bedwards1966]

OK. I'm not wishing to defend the police as it does suit them to act this way, and they could handle things better, but look at it from their view point. You yourself have said:

I do not want people without any firearms knowledge shooting at everything that moves and endangering me or my loved ones.

Your experience of firearms as the police will see it is on a range where you can't go wrong, point it at the target while supervised, no knowledge of backstops is needed. I can understand that they might be thinking that you won't have been taught about that, so the experience you have in that area could be considered worthless when shooting in a field, where it's completely different. Your other experience is with air rifles, which have very limited range and power, and with shotguns that also have very limited range. I'm not saying it's impossible to be dangerous with these guns, but they are very different from a real rifle.

Now you might understand how to shoot a .22lr safely in the field, but your experience isn't showing anything to prove that - and the police could have a problem if you shot at a pigeon in a tree and killed someone a mile or two away because they didn't check you were experienced before giving you a certificate. It's easy to understand why they might be careful.

 

Now I'm assuming that when you had a FAC prior to the pistols ban, that is was for pistols and/or rifles, but only for target shooting? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing you didn't have a rifle conditioned for shooting in the field?

 

What a waste of a £50 application fee

 

Am I to take it you've withdrawn your application on the advice of the police, or that it's been refused? Has that happened yet? They shouldn't actually take your fee unless they grant a certificate.

 

I've known a couple of people in West Yorkshire who have needed a mentor for a .22lr, plus very recently there was someone on here who needed one to allow him to get FAC air. It's not as uncommon as you might think for small rifles.

 

Normally what happens in this situation, if the applicant doesn't know anyone who can give the required mentoring they put up a post on this forum explaining their problem. They then get loads of people offering to take them out and that's it. If you're prepared to travel, or pay someone's fuel costs to come to your permission, you will usually get people willing to help. Many of us have been in a similar position, and there are some very helpful people on here.

 

Here is the thread I just mentioned - within about 3 1/2 hours he had 3 people offering to help.

 

If I were you, I'd do this and ask for help on here, then apply again/continue with your application depending on what stage it's at. I can understand why you are so frustrated, but see it from the police viewpoint, then look for a solution.

Edited April 26, 2012 by bedwards1966

[blackbird]

I think you will find now most police forces going down the mentor route, it's not just yourself I had to find a mentor when I put in for a .22 & a HMR.

[al4x]

ok what has actually been said by the FEO? has the application been withdrawn or has he refused it? with the information there I'd suggest a call to SACS who seem a bit more pro active on pushing things. This one would be a corker to take to an appeal as its ridiculous. I'm actually surprised BASC haven't grasped it as a good one to take to court to try and sort this issue out once and for all. Though I gather it helps to be a promising young rugby player and live close to head office before they will spend on legal fees

[ordnance]

I don't get it sure the mentor might be a ****, and not have a clue what he is talking about. Its not something i have heard of being a requirement here.

[CZ550Kevlar]

is there anyone on here local to you?? might we worth a try.

although you are a civil servant so don`t expect many offers.

Edited April 26, 2012 by CZ550Kevlar

[CharlieT]

Proceed with your application together with a letter to the Chief Constable copied to the head of firearms licensing detailing your reasons why you don't think a mentoring condition should be attached to your certificate.

 

If you can make a strong enough case I doubt such a condition will be applied.

[Mungler]

Option 1 : Kick off, give it large and wind up local FEO etc. You may get there in the end, but "people are people" and they will wait for a chance to get you back and kick you in the nuts

 

Option 2 : Take a deep breath, recognise that it's not fair and you probably don't have to and go and do the DSC1 with BASC for about £100 and have a good laugh with like minded people at the same time.

 

My 2p the FEO's are all getting the paperwork to cover themselves in the event that the next lawful shooter that goes Tonto on their patch doesn't cost them their pension. They want paper that cover's their backsides. That's life now a days.

[Bluebarrels]

Well im of a similar background to yourself Armed forces (not civil service) and i had my first firearms cert issued by TVP only took 2 weeks from appliying to receiving cert,and then they opened it up after 12 months so my dealings with them have always been good sounds like things have really tightened up im with Hampshire now,it took 3 months to get my sgc renewal :o BB

[sitsinhedges]

You have my sympathy, they seem to be making it up as they go these days.

 

We really should be challenging this tripe but no-one, myself included I must admit, wants the bother, so we just put up with it and it just gets worse.

 

Good luck with getting it resolved to your satisfaction

[GingerCat]

Challenges this, you can prove secure storage, reason to have one and experience. The threat of high court should sort this out given your experience as a small arms instructor. Will the BASC sponsor this as a test case perhaps? Its clear that FEO's think twice when court comes up after all there is a frame work laid down in law and home office guide lines that trumps any local policy. No one is above it and only a high court judge will settle it

As an apwt and rco you will have experience of high ME weapons systems and full automatic fire that don't really compare to shooting a rabbit with a silenced .22 even if they ping about a lot. As for comments about not being able to judge the safety of a .22 in the field against for example a.7.62 belt fed gimpy or 5.56 NATO I find this absurd. Safety is important and clearly, provided you are correct in your qualifications, can evidence this easily.

All the best.

Edited April 26, 2012 by GingerCat

[artschool]

just get a mentor? what's the problem, it's quite a sensible suggestion seeing as you haven't been off the range with a rimmie.

Edited April 26, 2012 by artschool

[Greymaster]

Sort yourself a mentor and then. like the rest of us, wait 20+ years for firearms licensing to be taken of plod.

[jaguar306]

Thanks everyone for your views and advice which I appreciate greatly. Obviously I won`t agree with every reply but then that's the whole point of getting a broad spectrum of advice and opinion isn't it? It is interesting that some support the Police view and some do not.

 

Just a few points I would like to make regarding some comments that were made. Just because you have a very active shooting community in your own village does not mean everyone else has. I have only met two other shooters in my village who both own shotguns and normally the gunfire I hear is mine!

 

As to the jocular comments about me being a Civil Servant let me assure you I do not wear a pin stripped suit or a bowler hat or work in a office. I am in a uniformed branch of the civil service doing a job that many wouldn't or couldn't do but needs doing anyway for the benefit of the whole country. Please don't go on about pensions hahaha.

 

Also anyone who knows about live firing exercises in the military they will know how acutely safety aware you have to be in places like Canada etc, when you have infantryman on the ground left and right etc, It is not always on a Bisley style range with butts and backstops and side berms with everyone in a straight line. Anyone who is unfortunate enough to have been shot at!Hearing rounds passing over or next to your head focuses the mind on the risk weapons pose before you take the shot. I wonder how many people have experienced that, who seem to agree that I lack "experience"?

 

To quote the BASC, "its the calibre of the man not the weapon that's important" and the FEO should be ascertaining this himself and not via the opinion of another shooter.

 

Anyway chin up, I shall do whatever I have to do to continue my sport by jumping through whatever hoops may be necessary and thank you for your advice comments etc

 

regards

 

John

[artschool]

glad you decided to get a mentor and some experience in the field

[sitsinhedges]

glad you decided to get a mentor and some experience in the field

 

Who said he did

[artschool]

Who said he did

he did by referring to jumping through hoops

[jaguar306]

Thanks everyone for your advice and comments. I have been contacted by a fairly local shooter who is willing to take me out to mentor me prior to the FEO completing my application. What a kind chap and what a great resource PW is.

Thanks again

regards

John

[delburt0]

i had this problem several.years ago.with our local force I have held a fac for 18 yrs when my friend finally took interest in vermin control with a rifle and not a shotgun as we have been doing it this way for years , he was told if they did agree I would have to babysit him for 12 months with him been able to keep a rimfire only and only take it out of his cabinet before picking me up , he applied after 6 months for him to have this stipulation taken off, this was successful within 12 months he had a open ticket same as me , remember the fa dept need to see you using ammo as this will add to your experience even though your cv seems you are more than qualified, best advice see if you can get a good friend to babysit you preferably with a open ticket , failing this pass your troubles over to BASC after all this is one of the reasons we are with the association , hope this helps delburt0 ... I'm on my mob apology if there is any typos......

[Jolly]

I have had a mentor condition imposed on me for .22lr and .17HMR the big problem is finding the time that my mentor and I can shoot together we need to go 8 or 10 times before they will consider removing the condition well what they said is once he considers me sufficiently proficient. BASC said I should insist on not having the imposition my FAC but like someone else said do I really want the hassle with the FEO ?