Full Pelt Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) The law is fine as it is. You can use appropriate force in defence of yourself or someone else. You only need to fear imminent harm. I.e. You can't chase them down the path finding your shotty after them as you are not in immediate danger. Those who don't understand the law call for change (to what it already is). Home defence guns are a bad idea as people will break into homes in search of firearms or go tooled up upping the ante. Our law is appropriate to our society but unworkable in USA for example. Its a one way street which I hope we dint go down. El Paso, in Texas, has been named the city with one of the lowest crime and murder rates in the United States, and is widely known as a city where there are more guns than people. With a population of over 500,000 residents it is very well supplied for gunshops and you can count murders on the fingers of one hand each year. Looks like a two way street to me. Edited October 11, 2012 by Full Pelt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 I think you will find we already have a lower rate here than el passo based on 550 murders last year and 60 odd million people. El passo is good by US standards but not by UK ones http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/tx/el-paso/crime/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHE Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Lovely thought, but rubbish in reality, the Police get a call of someone being shot, what do you expect? I'd expect a thorough investigation, and if that means detention, so be it. In your theatre anyone with a permanent address is allowed to kill/wound/mortally injure and not expect to be arrested, statements taken, forensic exams? The system is there to protect you, how would your brief have a chance of defending you if you were just 'set free'? I can't see how being a homeowner, shotgun owner, and shoot someone negates you from a police investigation....nuts. So you didn't bother to read what I actually said then... Of course the police need to investigate. That's their job. I didn't say otherwise And of course they need to interview everyone involved, and they need to keep them separate from each other until they have given their account of what happened. I didn't say otherwise. What i AM SAYING is that there is no need to keep them locked up in a cell for hours or even days, and there is no need to treat them as criminals. The Ferrie couple in Melton Mowbray spent 3 days in the cells and in interview before, following a lot of press coverage, the CPS finally stepped in and released them without charge. My own son spent a fraction under 24 hours under arrest, detained in a cell, unable to sleep because of the stress of the situation, before being released on bail - and 7 weeks later, he is STILL waiting for the police to actually do anything, one way or the other. And so did his mother, she was attacked and (slightly) injured by the thief and in very real danger, until my son stepped in and defended her. She was very much a victim but she was still arrested, detained and treated like dirt. In what other civilised country would innocent victims of criminals be treated like this, just because a legally held shotgun was involved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Seems we are in the company of some hard nuts on this forum. Disturbing a burglar triggers fight or flight mode. If you are blocking their exit, rest assured that fight mode will be the course of action, and they will fight far harder than normal trying to get past you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 I think the advice remains the same. I there someone in your house that shouldn't be there do not confront them unless you have no choice. If you are upstairs don't go down stairs barricade yourself in the bedroom ring the police in other word use some common sense. Even if you are armed going to confront someone who could also be armed is not advisable unless you have no choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) If burglars are found to be carrying a note with: 'TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN. I AM JUST HAVING A LOOK ROUND TO SEE WHAT THEY HAVE GOT. I AM NOT GOING TO HURT ANYONE AND THEY SHOULD NOT FEAR FOR THEIR LIVES. IF I AM INJURED ON THIS PROPERTY I WILL CLAIM DAMAGES.' ...then we are in trouble.... Edited October 11, 2012 by Floating Chamber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chr15j Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Know the law and use it to your advantage! It is there to protect you and very effective if you use it properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHE Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 I think the advice remains the same. I there someone in your house that shouldn't be there do not confront them unless you have no choice. If you are upstairs don't go down stairs barricade yourself in the bedroom ring the police in other word use some common sense. Even if you are armed going to confront someone who could also be armed is not advisable unless you have no choice. I think that that advice is excellent - never ever stand and fight unless you absolutely need to, and if you have no choice just use as much force as necessary. The problem with that advice is that you then have to hope that the burglars do their stuff and leave, without hurting you or your family, which they probably will. But if you are relying on the police to rescue you, you may have a very long wait because 1. Limited resources - they can only do their best with what they have 2. Location - it may not be too bad if you're living in a terraced house in the middle of a city, but if you're deep in the country you may have a very long wait. 3. If firearms are registered at your address you may have a much longer wait, the police tend to keep well clear of addresses where firearms may be (and who can blame them?) By the time they've visited the address, had a look round and decided that something really may be happening there, reported their findings and the armed response have been alerted, and have actually turned up, you'll be dead and beginning to smell. Again, it may or may be better in cities, I wouldn't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 I think that that advice is excellent - never ever stand and fight unless you absolutely need to, and if you have no choice just use as much force as necessary. In my experience,when confronted with imminent violence and you're scared out of your wits,and the adrenalin is up,as 'much force as necessary' is when the other person has stopped moving. As for the police keeping 'well clear of addresses where firearms may be',just dial 999 and tell them you're about to shoot someone;armed response will be there in a flash,and then you wont have to shoot anyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Chamber Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 In my experience,when confronted with imminent violence and you're scared out of your wits,and the adrenalin is up,as 'much force as necessary' is when the other person has stopped moving. As for the police keeping 'well clear of addresses where firearms may be',just dial 999 and tell them you're about to shoot someone;armed response will be there in a flash,and then you wont have to shoot anyone! And kiss goodbye to your certificate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 I think that that advice is excellent - never ever stand and fight unless you absolutely need to, and if you have no choice just use as much force as necessary. The problem with that advice is that you then have to hope that the burglars do their stuff and leave, without hurting you or your family, which they probably will. But if you are relying on the police to rescue you, you may have a very long wait because 1. Limited resources - they can only do their best with what they have 2. Location - it may not be too bad if you're living in a terraced house in the middle of a city, but if you're deep in the country you may have a very long wait. 3. If firearms are registered at your address you may have a much longer wait, the police tend to keep well clear of addresses where firearms may be (and who can blame them?) By the time they've visited the address, had a look round and decided that something really may be happening there, reported their findings and the armed response have been alerted, and have actually turned up, you'll be dead and beginning to smell. Again, it may or may be better in cities, I wouldn't know. As i said don't comfort unless necessary. If between ringing the police and them arriving they try to harm you or your family then use what ever force needed lethal if necessary. The fact that you called the police could be in your favour if things get nasty. You might not get a chance to ring the police and be confronted with someone in your house then the choice has gone you will have to defend yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz2202 Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) So it's 2 am in the morning, you are in deep sleep and have been for a couple of hours. You were very tired when you went to bed due to a hard days graft ... You hear a noise downstairs , you are bit dazed as you are sleepy! The 2 blokes downstairs nicking your tv are bouncing off the walls with adrenalin and maybe even drugs, they have been out in the fresh air all night and probably had a good days sleep due to not working ... Fancy your chances in fisty cuffs still ? As sad as it is you will most likely lose the fight. As previous posters have said , lock your family upstairs and call the cops and also shout like billyo out of the bedroom windows and wake all your neighbours. Now after I have said all that I still reckon my red mist in my head would arrive and I would confront them armed or not. I just don't think I could practice what I just preached !!! Edited October 11, 2012 by daz2202 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 And kiss goodbye to your certificate. It was meant to be tongue in cheek in view of some of the ridiculous posts in this thread,(the situation dictates the reaction,but no-one can predict any given situation until they're actually in it)but to be honest my tickets would be the last thing on my mind if I thought my family were under threat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted October 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 If someone burgling your house has a knife - and you have a gun what do you do - ask him to put it down or you will shoot? Or do you shoot and say he wouldnt put it down? It is really a personal thing and assessing a situation fully when you are disturbed at night you are not going to think clearly - it doesnt happen often. The police will know that and where there is doubt they will naturally try to find the truth. Perhaps thats why a policeman once told me if you kill someone who burgles your house, using whatever method,, make sure he has a knife in his hand when found. If you are to defend yourself, it is best that there is no doubt you acted in fear of your life, even now. Being truthful and acting accordingly is bound to be the best defence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 So you didn't bother to read what I actually said then... Of course the police need to investigate. That's their job. I didn't say otherwise And of course they need to interview everyone involved, and they need to keep them separate from each other until they have given their account of what happened. I didn't say otherwise. What i AM SAYING is that there is no need to keep them locked up in a cell for hours or even days, and there is no need to treat them as criminals. The Ferrie couple in Melton Mowbray spent 3 days in the cells and in interview before, following a lot of press coverage, the CPS finally stepped in and released them without charge. My own son spent a fraction under 24 hours under arrest, detained in a cell, unable to sleep because of the stress of the situation, before being released on bail - and 7 weeks later, he is STILL waiting for the police to actually do anything, one way or the other. And so did his mother, she was attacked and (slightly) injured by the thief and in very real danger, until my son stepped in and defended her. She was very much a victim but she was still arrested, detained and treated like dirt. In what other civilised country would innocent victims of criminals be treated like this, just because a legally held shotgun was involved? Just read your post that I commented on again eh? No need for arrest after shooting someone? Respectable member of the public? Gosh don't arrest them, they mow their lawn twice A week? Permanent address, My, he wouldn't shoot someone for no reason, leave him be? You're deluded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHE Posted October 11, 2012 Report Share Posted October 11, 2012 Well, if you can't or won't read what I actually said, I give up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) I think that that the law is OK as it is. It seems to me that the problem is not with the law per se, but with the police. They seem to regard themselves as shepherds and the public as sheep who need to be controlled, rather than protected. A good analogy might be that a pack of wolves is circling a flock of sheep, the shepherd does his best but can’t stop the wolves from attacking the sheep. A ram then attacks a wolf to defend the sheep, so the shepherd kicks the ram, to teach the sheep a lesson and let them know who is in charge… The police need to recognise that if a member of the public is under attack and stands and fights back, it's because he absolutely has to. He is the victim, not the criminal, and if he is a respectable member of society with a permanent address (which is pretty easy to check out quickly) then there is no need to arrest him and stick him in a cell for hours or even days whilst they 'make enquiries'. All that they actually need is a quick statement from the person and any witnesses, more detailed enquiries can be carried out later. Its here, 'No need for arrest' as he is a 'respectable member of the community' with a 'permanent address', just 'take a quick statement'......after shooting someone?? I hope to God our Police never end up this bias, and slack. I can see it now..I get sent to a house, dead body on the floor , homeowner stood over it with a gun. I call the DI and say its ok Guv, I didn't nick him cos I know where he lives and he said it was self defence. He has promised not to do a runner or destroy any evidence and says he will pop into the nick next Tuesday for a chat about it. This is a very salient post. The whole point of this isn't to stop the Police arresting and thoroughly investigating a potential murder, its about finding the facts and the law having the leewey to allow people to defend their property. I think you have a very strange way of interpeting what is being suggested. Edited October 12, 2012 by kyska Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storme37 Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 I think the advice remains the same. I there someone in your house that shouldn't be there do not confront them unless you have no choice. If you are upstairs don't go down stairs barricade yourself in the bedroom ring the police in other word use some common sense. Even if you are armed going to confront someone who could also be armed is not advisable unless you have no choice. the best advice so far i think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 This "reasonable force" thing is a bit tricky. Say I get lucky and knock the bloke out, who's to say he won't get up and stab me whilst I'm calling plod ? Is it reasonable to put the boot in to make sure ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 This "reasonable force" thing is a bit tricky. Say I get lucky and knock the bloke out, who's to say he won't get up and stab me whilst I'm calling plod ? Is it reasonable to put the boot in to make sure ? They say you shouldn't kick a man when he's down....I say you'll never get a better opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chr15j Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 I would suggest dragging him back out of your house and locking the door. Don't stick the boot in and don't detain as poss false imprisonment, just throw em out and call plod, having taken a photo perhaps to id them if they come round and run away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHE Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Yes, that sounds like a really good idea. Maybe you could ask him to pose for both full face and profile, to make identification easier? Let's hope that he's small, unarmed, alone and not high on drink or booze too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chr15j Posted October 12, 2012 Report Share Posted October 12, 2012 Was referring to prev post about knocking out the crim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeredup Posted October 13, 2012 Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 In my experience,when confronted with imminent violence and you're scared out of your wits,and the adrenalin is up,as 'much force as necessary' is when the other person has stopped moving. As for the police keeping 'well clear of addresses where firearms may be',just dial 999 and tell them you're about to shoot someone;armed response will be there in a flash,and then you wont have to shoot anyone! to be honest as long as you dial 999 there should be a rapid response as it will show up on the police operators screen your a firearms licensee! i know a while back there was some ****** fighting outside our house and the mrs called the police it took ages for em to answer the phone and she hung up in the end and then the phone rang and it was a very appologetic operator and 4 cars tipped up el pronto!! we even got a call from the chief inspector appologising for the delay in answering the call Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyska Posted October 13, 2012 Report Share Posted October 13, 2012 Its here, 'No need for arrest' as he is a 'respectable member of the community' with a 'permanent address', just 'take a quick statement'......after shooting someone?? I hope to God our Police never end up this bias, and slack. This is a very salient post. The whole point of this isn't to stop the Police arresting and thoroughly investigating a potential murder, its about finding the facts and the law having the leewey to allow people to defend their property. I think you have a very strange way of interpeting what is being suggested. No comment Sir? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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