leeds chimp Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Good morning At last, you have summed up the whole debate "Respect is earnt not given freely" who in there right mind can respect that person for what he did. He handled it incorrectly as his superiors said. If you support him and some of you have openly agree you would do the same, then yes I will call you thugs. I know a bit about respect and so will you one day when you've got a few more "T shirts" Would you have done the same thing as he did? i have done the same as him with people i have had the "pleasure" of dealing with through work. As said before you cant judge the whole incident on 4 seconds of footage. You can hear the desk copper telling her to behave and calm down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 http://en.wikipedia....ison_experiment Fascinating stuff. History and research teaches us much. To this day I wonder what went into the political and social melting pot that resulted in a couple of million people being systematically executed in WW2. It all had to start somewhere, and it didn't seem to take that long. I wonder what the guards at Auschwitz were doing in the years before... I'd guess they weren't charity workers or peace activists. Were they upstanding members of the community doing tough jobs? It all starts somewhere and once you give a civil liberty away freely, you'll never get it back. Blind and unquestioning respect and obeyance of a person in a uniform is a rocky old road.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 So many members profess their deep respect for our fallen, those that gave their lives in 2 world wars and lesser conflicts, but it doesn't seem very respectful to give away the rights they died for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Fascinating stuff. History and research teaches us much. To this day I wonder what went into the political and social melting pot that resulted in a couple of million people being systematically executed in WW2. Have you seen this movie Mungler? Grim, terrible, fascinating stuff indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) I'll have a look at that. The whole subject is fascinating - Germany at the turn of the last century was pretty much like any other country in Europe; it had a legal system, a democracy and was relatively "modern". But a few years later and there's a world at war and death camps in Germany and along its borders and organised mass murder. The "death camps" were the end product of a long and far reaching plan and process. Just looking at the "end" being the death camps - well, there were hundreds of them. Those death camps needed planning, building, running, maintaining, transport, infra structure.... everything, all of which would have required the direct or tacit support of tens of thousands of "normal" German citizens. I think Auschwitz itself had a couple of thousand people just working there and 40 odd satellite camps with more workers and so on. They reckon the ovens that were built had no other purpose and that whoever designed, smelted, built and delivered those also knew full well what they were for. It all had to start somewhere though.... Edited November 12, 2012 by Mungler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 It's amazing how far 'collective looking the other way' can get you, see BBC/Jimmy Saville, to pick a minor example entirely at random. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 It's amazing how far 'collective looking the other way' can get you, see BBC/Jimmy Saville, to pick a minor example entirely at random. its also amazing how a drunk and abusive person being pushed and falling over gets compared to paedophilia and the holocaust fairly staggering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) its also amazing how a drunk and abusive person being pushed and falling over gets compared to paedophilia and the holocaust fairly staggering. It would be, but that isn't actually happening, is it? Come on al4x, surely you can follow the development of this debate better than that? Edited November 12, 2012 by Thunderbird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Yeah after all the boys in blue do a tough job that none of us would want to do and what's a bit of ruffing up in custody in the scheme of things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Yeah after all the boys in blue do a tough job that none of us would want to do and what's a bit of ruffing up in custody in the scheme of things? I should 'of' said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodmedod.one Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Dirty Harry. If you think the way Andrews handled an old woman is acceptable you are scum. So is he. I choose to work for a living instead of being a copper and guess what? I don't have to put up with abuse/violence/hassle from the public every day. Nobody forced you or anyone else to become a copper, it was your career decision. If you can't stand the hassle then go and get another job somewhere else. The Police Force doesn't need bullies like Mark Andrews or idiots like you who try to condone his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 next we will be hearing she was innocent and it was a fit up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 I choose to work for a living instead of being a copper and guess what? I don't have to put up with abuse/violence/hassle from the public every day. Nobody forced you or anyone else to become a copper, it was your career decision. If you can't stand the hassle then go and get another job somewhere else. I wouldn't want the job. I think a bit more respect is due for the **** they go through every day. Having to worry about the welfare of someone who's swinging for you is a step too far in my book. How many times do you see half a dozen coppers on the telly handling one drunk? It's a disgrace and a waste of public money. Once they've got violent it should be batton, cuffs and if they hit their head on the van door on the way in then hard luck! There are rogues in every trade and the police are no exception but with the trouble this woman was causing it's not surprising she got handled harshly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds chimp Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Dirty Harry. If you think the way Andrews handled an old woman is acceptable you are scum. So is he. I choose to work for a living instead of being a copper and guess what? I don't have to put up with abuse/violence/hassle from the public every day. Nobody forced you or anyone else to become a copper, it was your career decision. If you can't stand the hassle then go and get another job somewhere else. The Police Force doesn't need bullies like Mark Andrews or idiots like you who try to condone his actions. well you must have a very cushy job then I wouldn't want the job. I think a bit more respect is due for the **** they go through every day. Having to worry about the welfare of someone who's swinging for you is a step too far in my book. How many times do you see half a dozen coppers on the telly handling one drunk? It's a disgrace and a waste of public money. Once they've got violent it should be batton, cuffs and if they hit their head on the van door on the way in then hard luck! There are rogues in every trade and the police are no exception but with the trouble this woman was causing it's not surprising she got handled harshly. spot on fella Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Harshly is the right word, she wasn't slapped about and sure wasn't a nice old lady. Women can be evil when drunk and this one wouldn't take a breath test wouldn't go in the cells etc etc and due to this she got away with it and got the chance to do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 and due to this she got away with it and got the chance to do it again. Remind me, whose fault was that ? Ah, I remember, it was the bullying copper who so embarassed his force that they dropped all charges and will probably have to pay compensation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodmedod.one Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 well you must have a very cushy job then And it pays more than being a plod One of the downsides is that unlike Andrews I can't beat Grannies up and get away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) I'd give him the benefit of the doubt simply because he is doing a **** job, dealing with the scum of society with day in day Obviously you can't injure them in custody but you also can't treat them like normal people. I dont suppose he had his arm bent behind his back when he took the job? Your right he does deal with people at the bottom of the pool but equally he IS trained to do so, and I dont suppose for one minute that slapping a woman to the ground and then dragging and throwing her into a cell down with such force that she is injured is on any power point presentation he ever received. His job is to serve the public with all its fault's yes it must be lip biting at times but once you lose the fact that regardless of social standing you are still dealing with people! then all hope is lost, you may as well allow the police to form death squads roaming the streets at night taking out those they feel don't fit into their way. KW Edited November 12, 2012 by kdubya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canis Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 I''m still on the fence on this one On the one hand if a copper pushed my mother (who is in her 60's ) about like that I would take "extreme exception" to that treatment - but to be honest I wouldn't ever expect my mother to act like that! On the other hand this woman was drunk and disorderly - why should she get dealt with any differently from any other other drunk & disorderly - by sixty she should know better -if she where 15 and didn't know her alcohol tolerances yet there might be some excuse but by sixty she should know her limit ! the copper lost his cool and manhandled her and its easy for us to sit in oue armchairs and critisize his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 and its easy for us to sit in oue armchairs and critisize his actions. I largely agree with you. However, as this is the Internet there is no way of knowing (really) what people are doing in 'real life', and it's therefore easy to bandy about terms like 'armchair critic' or 'keyboard shooter' or whatever. If we allow that opinions can be formed on evidence available then I'm with most people here, that he (like the newspaper seller murderer in London) is in the wrong. There is, I fear, a larger point at stake here which is being ignored by some, either wilfully or otherwise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 I''m still on the fence on this one On the one hand if a copper pushed my mother (who is in her 60's ) about like that I would take "extreme exception" to that treatment - but to be honest I wouldn't ever expect my mother to act like that! On the other hand this woman was drunk and disorderly - why should she get dealt with any differently from any other other drunk & disorderly - by sixty she should know better -if she where 15 and didn't know her alcohol tolerances yet there might be some excuse but by sixty she should know her limit ! the copper lost his cool and manhandled her and its easy for us to sit in oue armchairs and critisize his actions. But your two "on the fence" versions say the same thing. Your mother wouldn't act like that and as such wouldn't get herself in that position in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 But your two "on the fence" versions say the same thing. Your mother wouldn't act like that and as such wouldn't get herself in that position in the first place. Mothers can be unpredictable, especially mothers-in-law. There but for the grace.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 At last we`re beginning to get some common sense in this debate. There is another thread running in which an SAS soldier has been jailed for firearms offences. There seems to be a lot of support in that thread for the standpoint that the soldier should just get a ####ing and not time inside. Can`t say that I find that disagreeable given his military background,the attendant circumstances and despite the severity of the offence. What I can`t quite grasp is why so many think that Sgt Andrews should be given any less consideration for what was undoubtedly wrong but needs keeping in perspective. Something should certainly happened to him, at the very least Operational Advice recorded on his P file which may well have affected future promotion. To hear the baying of the anti police faction calling him scum and demanding his imprisonment, sacking, castration or whatever just plain lacks common sense. If a decision you have made comes to the right conclusion, it will usually withstand quite substantial changes in circumstance, and still be correct so here is a theoretical conundrum for the police bashers: Everything that you have seen in the Andrews tape remains the same. What, however, you do not know is that, before joining the police and rapidly rising to the rank of Sgt, Andrews served in the British Army. In the SAS. Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 But your two "on the fence" versions say the same thing. Your mother wouldn't act like that and as such wouldn't get herself in that position in the first place. maybe no but you would like to think that if she did go off the rails for whatever reason, she would be put in a cell and allowed to sleep it off, not have her head smashed in because she got on the nerves of a bully. KW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 What, however, you do not know is that, before joining the police and rapidly rising to the rank of Sgt, Andrews served in the British Army. In the SAS. Discuss. No idea if that's right or wrong (though I suspect it's wrong) but even if it's right I couldn't care less. PW SAS worship is just walting by proxy. Now discuss that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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