TopDown Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Because you don't have a legal right to hold the guns unless you have a lawfully held certificate. If it has expired then you can't hold them any longer. RFD or friends are your options. It is unacceptable but I don't think "end of" hold much weight with the court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 There is a good chance that by asking for a temp permit they'll just get on and renew yours. They will give out temp permits where they have to, albeit reluctantly. The question of whether or not you are illegally in possession is one which we could debate for hours but it does put you in a vunerable position. No, there is no question about it. You are committing an offence if you are in possession of a shotgun without holding a certificate, the reason(s) as to why you don't hold a certificate do not change the law. That's not to say the police would prosecute someone over this, but they certainly could. It also doesn't mean a court would send you to prison for illegally holding a shotgun, but they could. Still missing the bit where the police have MADE you break the law. Have they barred you from using an RFD? I require firearms as part of my work, I have no choice but to have them at all times. Putting them with a RFD because the police have not done their job is not an option, I must have them. So in practical terms, they would be making me break the law by not giving me a certificate. And tell me exactly why we shooters should pay money to store out property to avoid breaking the law, when we're waiting for the police to do what we pay them to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remy 700 Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 (edited) Yes well said bedwards , its fine to use friends free storage of shotguns if YOU wish , but these serious delays also effect firearms which can only go to a rfd for storage , and I also need the kit for my job , I am glad you too agree its unaceptable top down , Cheers remy 700 Edited November 11, 2012 by remy 700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDown Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 I require firearms as part of my work, I have no choice but to have them at all times. Putting them with a RFD because the police have not done their job is not an option, I must have them. So in practical terms, they would be making me break the law by not giving me a certificate. And tell me exactly why we shooters should pay money to store out property to avoid breaking the law, when we're waiting for the police to do what we pay them to do? You do have a choice. Unpalatable it may be but it is a choice. You don't even have to pay any money for storage if you are happy for the police to hold your guns. It's all about choices. The police, however inefficient, haven't made anyone break the law in these circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 (edited) Get BASC on the case most departs back down and do their job when faced with a group like BASC. You do have a choice to store your guns else where the police also had a choice to complete their paperwork if you got the renewal in in time so if you must have your guns for work there is a loss of earning claim in the offing. Oh most temporary Certs only let you hold the guns not use them or buy ammo!!!! Beware what your asking for. Edited November 11, 2012 by welshwarrior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 You do have a choice. Unpalatable it may be but it is a choice. You don't even have to pay any money for storage if you are happy for the police to hold your guns. It's all about choices. The police, however inefficient, haven't made anyone break the law in these circumstances. The police are causing people to break the law, as there is sometimes no practical alternative. By your reasoning if DVLA burned down overnight and I couldn't renew my tax disc (and driving without one would be an offence) I wouldn't be forced to break the law by still driving it, as in theory (again I need the car for work) I could pay money to park the car off road? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouser Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 same thing happened to me firearms & shotgun expired after a few phone calls was told everything getting sorted. that day get stoped by traffic cops, no seatbelt, in back of copcar he tells me when my new licence is due to expire, and i hav,nt even got it. the paperwork arrived two weeks later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDown Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 The police are causing people to break the law, as there is sometimes no practical alternative. By your reasoning if DVLA burned down overnight and I couldn't renew my tax disc (and driving without one would be an offence) I wouldn't be forced to break the law by still driving it, as in theory (again I need the car for work) I could pay money to park the car off road? And there is the crux of it. Cause is not the same as make. You are correct. You wouldn't be forced to break the law with your car either. You're theories are all very well but you don't appear to be considering all the options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Durham are the same.....I waited 4mths for my S/C before the new one arrived. Phoned in on three occasions, only to be told, leave the guns in the cabinet, don't use them, everything will be OK. In the meantime, I was interviewed by a murder squad detective, apparently everyone in Durham is going through this because of the Horden Shooting. My application was in eight weeks before the cert was to expire, & I didn't receive the new cert till 2 mths after it had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 My application was in eight weeks before the cert was to expire, & I didn't receive the new cert till 2 mths after it had. Ironically,you could have reported them....to the Police, for that! Unless you were informed by your licensing authority that you would not receive your new ticket prior to your old one expiring(in which case by law they should have issued you with a section 7 permit)by their actions they have left you in breach of the conditions of your license as far as I'm aware.You are only allowed to possess firearms while in possession of a valid license,which you didn't have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Ironically,you could have reported them....to the Police, for that! Unless you were informed by your licensing authority that you would not receive your new ticket prior to your old one expiring(in which case by law they should have issued you with a section 7 permit)by their actions they have left you in breach of the conditions of your license as far as I'm aware.You are only allowed to possess firearms while in possession of a valid license,which you didn't have. Yep, your right, which I pointed out on the 3 phone calls I made, but only to be told the same. If your flagged with Durham your going to go through the same process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Well my shotgun licence has ran out, as i said in an earlier thread it was all posted off 10 weeks before. B A S C have told me to ask for a temporary permit under section 7 of the firearms act 1968, apparently these are as rare as seeing a bobby walk down your street. What is the real hold up here ? are they having to much tea and biscuits when they do finally get to you or is it our good old red tape system. I have renewed my licence many times over the years and never been put in this position before. I think we should be able to fine them for this, after all if we were to drive around with no car tax for instance and when stopped i said sorry , there's going to be a delay in that, i would soon be for the high jump. .Very poor service. Chrs. Mine ran out in June, got the feo round tuesday............ Staff shortages is their reason. If you choose to ignore their letter stating they will not prosecute in the event of you renewal being delayed due to a back log, store your guns at a gun shop or a friend's who has a current licence. Or just wait patiently and keep shooting....... Poor service ..... Agreed, not much we can do about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Mine ran out in June, got the feo round tuesday............ Staff shortages is their reason. If you choose to ignore their letter stating they will not prosecute in the event of you renewal being delayed due to a back log, store your guns at a gun shop or a friend's who has a current licence. Or just wait patiently and keep shooting....... Poor service ..... Agreed, not much we can do about it At least they gave you a letter to say crack on I would say you would be more than covered then. Thames Valley wanted my guns store and stopped all use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 When you get your new certificate it will run from the date that the old one expired. I don't see how you are ever "without" a SGC in law. You haven't got it in your grubby little hand its true but your status should remain unchanged. Remember a SGC is a legal right, its not granted in the same way as a FAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Durham are the same.....I waited 4mths for my S/C before the new one arrived. I've been sent my forms FOUR MONTHS before my SGC expires, so it doesn't look like they've sorted their act out yet! Phoned in on three occasions, only to be told, leave the guns in the cabinet, don't use them, everything will be OK. I was also told this when my FAC expired In the meantime, I was interviewed by a murder squad detective, apparently everyone in Durham is going through this because of the Horden Shooting. I know around 100 shooters in Durham and i've not heard anything about this?? Aren't there over 8000 cert holders in Co. Durham, that would take over 10 years if they did 2 a day, every single day of the year!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countryman Posted November 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 The main trouble with us uk shooters is that we roll over and just take what ever is thrown at us, the licencing system never used to be like this so why should we just sit back and except a long delay, as well as asking in my letter for a temp certificate i have asked what's the police procedure for a complaint about this. i think we under estimate the numbers in our shooting community and if we all complained in writing to them it just might improve. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 I know around 100 shooters in Durham and i've not heard anything about this?? Aren't there over 8000 cert holders in Co. Durham, that would take over 10 years if they did 2 a day, every single day of the year!! Probably so, but every cert holder in Durham is going through this especially if they are flagged. On my last phone call the backlog was put up to 90 days. Along with that they wanted to know regular visitors to my house.... if my daughters had boyfriends, they wanted to check there backgrounds. One member on PW posted that they were going to ask neighbours if they minded if he had guns.....IIRC..could be wrong. My mate has just had both his certs done, & the FEO told him he had taken guns off three shooters the week before, one of the reasons was because the cert holders son was in bother, so the police removed guns from the household. When your FEO comes out ask him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breastman Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 No thanks, i don't like prodding hornets nests! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixhills 69 Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Leicestershire firearms turned mine round in 4 weeks very happy and over the moon Well done guys " its a shame that i still have not recieved it as the postal service is in the country is a joke" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 But my partner isn't in possession and she lives here too? I'd have thought the access being denied would be enough, same as it is for everyone else in the house? Who knows I don't have another key? Well nobody, but then who knows that I don't have too many rounds of ammunition or use my guns for illegal activities? That's down to me to be honest, and them to prove that I have another key if it comes to it! I see what you're saying. It doesn't change matters though. You are in unlawful possession because you exercise control over the guns. Even if you didn't have a spare key you could break in to the cabinet to get them. Your partner would be in illegal possession if the decided to go into the cabinets as well. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) Get BASC on the case most departs back down and do their job when faced with a group like BASC. You do have a choice to store your guns else where the police also had a choice to complete their paperwork if you got the renewal in in time so if you must have your guns for work there is a loss of earning claim in the offing. Oh most temporary Certs only let you hold the guns not use them or buy ammo!!!! Beware what your asking for. True that you cannot buy ammo but there is nothing about a sec.7 permit that prevents you from using your guns. J. Edited November 12, 2012 by JonathanL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Ironically,you could have reported them....to the Police, for that! Unless you were informed by your licensing authority that you would not receive your new ticket prior to your old one expiring(in which case by law they should have issued you with a section 7 permit)by their actions they have left you in breach of the conditions of your license as far as I'm aware.You are only allowed to possess firearms while in possession of a valid license,which you didn't have. Thats spurious reasonaing; how can you be in breach of a condition on a certificate which has expired? Also, there is nothing in law which says they must issue a sec.7 permit if they do not get your renewal doen on time. A sec.7 permit is totally at the discretion of the police. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 At least they gave you a letter to say crack on I would say you would be more than covered then. Thames Valley wanted my guns store and stopped all use. And you wold be wrong.You are not 'covered', you are in unlawful possession of the guns and the police can not make it lawful because they feel like it. There really is no argument about this - you are comitting an offence. They may not prosecute you but that doesn't avoid the other problems such as you perhaps not being insured. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 When you get your new certificate it will run from the date that the old one expired. I don't see how you are ever "without" a SGC in law. You haven't got it in your grubby little hand its true but your status should remain unchanged. Remember a SGC is a legal right, its not granted in the same way as a FAC It's very, very straight forward - if you have no certificate then you are in illegal possession. It is that simple. A firearm certificate is something you have a legal 'right' to as well. If you meet the criteria laid down in law then you must be granted one. The criteria is slightly different depending on which cert you are applying for but it's pretty minor, in reality J.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Mine ran out in June, got the feo round tuesday............ Staff shortages is their reason. If you choose to ignore their letter stating they will not prosecute in the event of you renewal being delayed due to a back log, store your guns at a gun shop or a friend's who has a current licence. Or just wait patiently and keep shooting....... Poor service ..... Agreed, not much we can do about it A letter from the firearms dept saying they won't prosecute you for not holding a certificate for your firearms means nothing. You're still breaking the law, and could still be in trouble for it. Waiting patiently and continuing to shoot is breaking the law. At least they gave you a letter to say crack on I would say you would be more than covered then. Thames Valley wanted my guns store and stopped all use. The letter doesn't change the fact that your breaking the law. When you get your new certificate it will run from the date that the old one expired. I don't see how you are ever "without" a SGC in law. You haven't got it in your grubby little hand its true but your status should remain unchanged. Remember a SGC is a legal right, its not granted in the same way as a FAC While a certificate may be backdated, until it's actually issued you don't hold one. If it takes them 2 months to issue it, despite being backdated, you do NOT hold a certificate for those two months. If in court, saying 'there will be one issued, give it a bit longer' wouldn't change the law. Probably so, but every cert holder in Durham is going through this especially if they are flagged. On my last phone call the backlog was put up to 90 days. Along with that they wanted to know regular visitors to my house.... if my daughters had boyfriends, they wanted to check there backgrounds. One member on PW posted that they were going to ask neighbours if they minded if he had guns.....IIRC..could be wrong. My mate has just had both his certs done, & the FEO told him he had taken guns off three shooters the week before, one of the reasons was because the cert holders son was in bother, so the police removed guns from the household. When your FEO comes out ask him. These are more cases of the police making it all up as they go along. These things should be challenged, they have no right to check the details of your daughters' boyfriend, neighbors etc. One of the biggest issues we face is that we don't stand up and fight when the police try to make up new rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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