Gordon R Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Vince - that is a very valid point and one that tends to get forgotten. The Police do not sit in judgement - the courts do. Sadly, trial by jury is a lottery and some of the sentencing - truly pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpkiller Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) when someone says you need to keep these things in the context of what it could be like, i just think it could be excellent in this country if someone had the nuts to sort the problems out. I can imagine the corruption problems are just like any other industry problem, the guy bellow should be able to do something about the guy above him and these days the guy above rarely has got that job through proven excellence its usually that they just say the stuff the guy above him wants to hear. Edited December 22, 2012 by pimpkiller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livefast123 Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) There are many things wrong with the British justice system that stems through police to the CPS and finally the courts. You see the same faces time and time again, committing the same offences and getting no punisment for it. Personally I think criminals laugh at the courts who are about as out of touch as it is possible to get with the priorities of the normal British person, yet feel that they should be considering the needs of the guilty party when sentencing and letting them have leave for Christmas etc! Edited December 22, 2012 by Livefast123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Gordon R, if you don't like what's being said there is no need to start having a go at somebody. Why don't you attempt to have a discussion for a change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 The original question was about corrupt police officers. Sadly, in my experience the police are rotten from the core. It is the policies of senior officers who have created the corrupt situation that we have today. Briefly, after the introduction of PACE the police force I served in took a different direction to what had gone before. There was a clear out of dishonest officers ironically on ill-health pensions that were manufactured to ease the trouble makers out without causing any problems. After a while, and the introduction of government policies senior officers became to realise that they were in effect untouchable. They could flout the regulations, bully officers out of the job with no evidence or come back from the Federation or employment law. Police officers have none of the employment rights enjoyed by other trades. Their Federation is in the pockets of senior officers and government and effectively toothless. Also, the IPCC will not investigate a complaint of dishonesty or corruption made by a serving police officer against another officer or officers. Senior officers of ACPO rank became the worst abusers of power and had the arrogance of tin pot dictators. The results of this can be seen today. Promotion is given to people who will brown nose their way to the top, not those who earn and deserve it. There is a serious lack of effective supervision in middle ranks and so lower ranks have become unsupervised. With that comes the arrogance that they can do what they like. Back in 1990 my appraisal was done by a Chief Inspector who had personally seen every scrap of paper I had written and knew my family's names and my hobbies. That was the norm. My last appraisal was done by my sergeant in ten minutes and was based entirely on computer generated stats where an arrest for burglary counts the same as a ticket for no seat belt and my own personal development journal submissions that might or might not have been accurate or relevant. They were certainly never checked and that went for those presenting fictional evidence for promotion boards. The only thing that can change the police and get it back on track is if the new Commissioners are given the powers to get rid of the nepotistic buffoons in charge and replace them with business people who know how to run a company. That will break the jobs for the boys escalator and hopefully free up the promotion system to those who deserve it. And for officers to be given employment rights similar to those of civil servants with protection for whistle blowers. When I reported a sergeant for serial theft nothing happened to him but I was black balled. When I reported a colleague for a criminal assault on a handcuffed man he was moved into CID, effectively a promotion and now bizarrely carries a gun, and I was moved. When I reported a sergeant for putting pressure on us all to report assaults as less serious than they were there was an investigation whereby two sergeants who were present at the time cold not remember the meeting, none of the other 20 officers were asked and they naturally found no evidence of wrong doing. Until they fix corruption at the top nothing will change on the streets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypig Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Tinfoil hats anyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymaster Posted December 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Vince - that is a very valid point and one that tends to get forgotten. The Police do not sit in judgement - the courts do. Sadly, trial by jury is a lottery and some of the sentencing - truly pathetic. It is not so much a lottery when a police officer is in the dock, even when a coroner's court has found an verdict of unlawful killing, it seems perverse for the perpetrator, a copper, not to be convicted in a criminal court. Juries need to start finding guilt where guilt lies. As for jobs for the boys: This will change when army officers start being fast tracked into senior positions. I do hope they will introduce some professionalism and discipline, and to make observing the police oath paramount. Police forces have what's called "Professional Standards Branch/Division" etc. That money and time has to be spent running these sections reveals the sad fact that they are needed. Over 3,000 coppers with criminal records still "serving". A conviction should spend the end of a coppers career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) Gordon R, if you don't like what's being said there is no need to start having a go at somebody. bedwards1966 - I was having a discussion, until some idiot started having a pop. Perhaps you need to refresh your memory. You started it - don't cry foul when it bites you back. A bit like Dennis - you spout drivel then forget you said it. The original question was about corrupt police officers. Sadly, in my experience the police are rotten from the core. An excellent objective view, with absolutely nothing to back it up. I am sure the rest of the Police Force will agree with you - perhaps not. This will change when army officers start being fast tracked into senior positions. I do hope they will introduce some professionalism and discipline, and to make observing the police oath paramount. Perhaps they will teach the Police how to hide weapons and ammunition. Edited December 22, 2012 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCat Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) bedwards1966 - I was having a discussion, until some idiot started having a pop. Perhaps you need to refresh your memory. You started it - don't cry foul when it bites you back. A bit like Dennis - you spout drivel then forget you said it. An excellent objective view, with absolutely nothing to back it up. I am sure the rest of the Police Force will agree with you - perhaps not. Perhaps they will teach the Police how to hide weapons and ammunition. Having been a soldier I can't remember being taught how to investigate anything. Edited December 22, 2012 by GingerCat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 There are good and bad in the Police and Armed Forces. I fail to see any convincing argument (or any argument at all) as to why bringing the "Army" to run the Police would be a change for the better. Would the reverse apply? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymaster Posted December 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 What the original article demonstrates is the dire lack of good, honest leadership, as well as corruption, law breaking, cronyism. You know, the sort of things gangsters get up to. Bringing in army officers will block the career paths of all those junior ranks who have turned a blind eye to these goings on in the interests of securiing their promotions. Chief Constables have presided over their fiefdoms for far too long, they will feel the heat from a genuinely professional (if imported) officer class, and hopefully from the new Commissioners. It has already started in Avon. Policing needs a big shake up. It can't get much worse can it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mungler Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 The original question was about corrupt police officers. Sadly, in my experience the police are rotten from the core. It is the policies of senior officers who have created the corrupt situation that we have today. Briefly, after the introduction of PACE the police force I served in took a different direction to what had gone before. There was a clear out of dishonest officers ironically on ill-health pensions that were manufactured to ease the trouble makers out without causing any problems. After a while, and the introduction of government policies senior officers became to realise that they were in effect untouchable. They could flout the regulations, bully officers out of the job with no evidence or come back from the Federation or employment law. Police officers have none of the employment rights enjoyed by other trades. Their Federation is in the pockets of senior officers and government and effectively toothless. Also, the IPCC will not investigate a complaint of dishonesty or corruption made by a serving police officer against another officer or officers. Senior officers of ACPO rank became the worst abusers of power and had the arrogance of tin pot dictators. The results of this can be seen today. Promotion is given to people who will brown nose their way to the top, not those who earn and deserve it. There is a serious lack of effective supervision in middle ranks and so lower ranks have become unsupervised. With that comes the arrogance that they can do what they like. Back in 1990 my appraisal was done by a Chief Inspector who had personally seen every scrap of paper I had written and knew my family's names and my hobbies. That was the norm. My last appraisal was done by my sergeant in ten minutes and was based entirely on computer generated stats where an arrest for burglary counts the same as a ticket for no seat belt and my own personal development journal submissions that might or might not have been accurate or relevant. They were certainly never checked and that went for those presenting fictional evidence for promotion boards. The only thing that can change the police and get it back on track is if the new Commissioners are given the powers to get rid of the nepotistic buffoons in charge and replace them with business people who know how to run a company. That will break the jobs for the boys escalator and hopefully free up the promotion system to those who deserve it. And for officers to be given employment rights similar to those of civil servants with protection for whistle blowers. When I reported a sergeant for serial theft nothing happened to him but I was black balled. When I reported a colleague for a criminal assault on a handcuffed man he was moved into CID, effectively a promotion and now bizarrely carries a gun, and I was moved. When I reported a sergeant for putting pressure on us all to report assaults as less serious than they were there was an investigation whereby two sergeants who were present at the time cold not remember the meeting, none of the other 20 officers were asked and they naturally found no evidence of wrong doing. Until they fix corruption at the top nothing will change on the streets. I find that worrying but pretty similar to what has been told to me by friends in the job. It appears to be a 'culture' thing but that culture can only come from the past or the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Ive three very close friends as coppers. One was sacked last chistmas for drink driving. The threw the book at him (and rightly so) The middle one loves the job, and might as well have the word "Justice" tattooed on his arm. The third one slacks off, as in his words "its all bent". These are very real views, by people doing the job. how can you have a couple of hundred thousand police officers, and them all be like Judge Dread? Its not like that. There will always be an element of badness in people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 An excellent objective view, with absolutely nothing to back it up. I am sure the rest of the Police Force will agree with you - perhaps not. Nothing to back it up? Only 25 years of operational experience and the examples given in the post. What actual experience have you got to offer in terms of this debate - other than your collection of Inspector Morse videos? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 I find that worrying but pretty similar to what has been told to me by friends in the job. It appears to be a 'culture' thing but that culture can only come from the past or the top. With the way that Chief Constables have been chosen in the past and the sham that is the HMI (Her Majesty's Inspectorate) the only change can come from the new Commissioners. IF they have elected a Commissioner with sense, aptitude and courage then the cycle can be broken. Sadly, because of the way that politics work, I don't see this happening on a wide scale, but encouragingly some areas seem to have a Commissioner who will rattle the cages. Back in 1993 a man called Sir John Harvy-Jones looked into South Yorkshire Police as a business. He had previously run ICI, a massive international company. His report was damning and sadly accurate. They ignored it. In 1993 he suggested that officers were spending too much time typing put their criminal files on old-fashioned typewriters and suggested that lower paid clerks could do it using more modern equipment. Just before I retired in 2011 I was still typing criminal files myself, albeit on a new computerised system only just introduced. In that 18 years the only thing that had really changed is that it took me around twice to three times as long to prepare a file in 2011 than it did in 1993. In my last year I was part of a(nother) new scheme whereby we were forced to work from small police stations in the 'communities' rather than the larger central one. 'Great' I hear you all say. just what we want. Except that the Chief Inspector who dreamed up the scheme as part of his promotion plans didn't allow for the fact that the Superintendent had deemed that my and everyone else's contact numbers were to be a phone in the now empty office at the central police station. When I raised the point neither would back down and change their plans. The Chief inspector had also not allowed for prioritised response whereby we had to attend certain types of jobs within a pre-determined time. So, if the north-east beat bobbies were tied up with a minor job on their beat, the control room would have to send someone else to the priority incident. What we ended up with, and is still in place are bobbies from the north-east blue lighting to jobs in the south-west and vica-versa and then taking on inquiries off their beats which makes a total mockery of the police in their communities plans. Of course none of this is admitted to and the Chief Inspector will get promoted on his plans which he will present as a success. That is the sort of managers you are employing to run your police forces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Medic1281 Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 It's not just the police that have these sorts of ideas and managers. The ambulance service are now doing it. The pr spin is brilliant, our so called managers are putting out press releases stating that each mkt town is getting a new response team. The reality is, the mkt town ambulance stations that had 2 ambulances and a rapid response car have been closed, the ambulances have been moved to a central hub 20+ miles away. The towns now have just 1 response car. This is great for hitting times/targets but detrimental to patient care as the solo responders are limited in treatments they offer, the patients still need to go to hospital but are now waiting up to two hours for an emergency ambulance to arrive! (null) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin128 Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 I live a mile away from a hospital...I'd use a taxi if Mrs couldn't get me there. On policing...if Cameron can't sort out a decent force to guard his gate properly, what hope do we have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 A couple of months back I woke up about 2.30am very breathless and finding it hard to breathe. It frightened me I can tell you. My wife phoned for an ambulance. Twenty minutes later they phoned back and said was there anybody that could take me to hospital as they didn't have an ambulance available. My wife said she would take me and they said they would phone the hospital and make sure that they were expecting me. When I got there there were three ambulances standing idle on the ramp and nobody knew I was coming. Luckily they checked me out and said it was all OK , probably a food allergy or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymaster Posted December 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Seems like Hogan-Howe has got the message that his knighthood is going down the pan. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9762868/Honour-for-Met-police-chief-Bernard-Hogan-Howe-sparks-panic-amid-Plebgate-row.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Seems like Hogan-Howe has got the message that his knighthood is going down the pan. http://www.telegraph...ebgate-row.html yes but gracious of him to show more concern for the wellbeing of his officers http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20829901 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 Nothing to back it up? Only 25 years of operational experience and the examples given in the post. What actual experience have you got to offer in terms of this debate - other than your collection of Inspector Morse videos? A little more than you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 A little more than you. Care to quantify? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 (edited) UKPoacher. In a nutshell - no. I know what I know and don't have to dance to your tune. Please spare me the attempted withering putdown. From time to time, posters appear, having a pop at the Police. I will admit to believing that the majority are very, very good, with a few obviously bad ones - at whatever rank. If that makes me wrong - so be it. What I do object to are people who cite instances, which we are asked to accept at face value, without any detail whatsoever. If you are certain of your facts - name and shame the individuals concerned. I suspect that will not happen. It is clearly safer, if less brave, to slag off the general Police Force, with a few vague examples. Lord McAlpine had the measure of a number of keyboard warriors. :good: Edited December 23, 2012 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpkiller Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 your posts really make me cringe Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted December 23, 2012 Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 In a good way? In which case I wholeheartedly agree with you. :good: If it is in a bad way - can we agree to disagree? :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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