Pump Club

[Matty89]

Well had a chat to my FAO yesterday as I’ll be moving shortly, we got on to the subject of Section 1 Shotguns whilst discussing my new pump purchase! 

When i’ve moved i’ll put In an application for my FAC for a Section 1 Shotgun and a .22lr bolt action rifle!

Does anybody know with the Winchester SXP how easy it may be for a gunsmith to remove the crimp to allow a mag tube extension to be fitted?

OR

Is it easiest to just buy a section 1 shotgun in the first place?!ive already become quite attached to my SXP so I’ll keep it but ideally I’d like it to be my section 1 Gun.

Anybody done this with the sxp or something comparable with a crimp in the mag tube?

cheers Matt

[Benkent]

https://www.vortexdefense.com/product/mossberg-500-590-590a1-maverick-88-tactical-rail/

 

This is what I want lol.

[Rimfireboy]

17 minutes ago, Matty89 said:

Well had a chat to my FAO yesterday as I’ll be moving shortly, we got on to the subject of Section 1 Shotguns whilst discussing my new pump purchase! 

When i’ve moved i’ll put In an application for my FAC for a Section 1 Shotgun and a .22lr bolt action rifle!

Does anybody know with the Winchester SXP how easy it may be for a gunsmith to remove the crimp to allow a mag tube extension to be fitted?

OR

Is it easiest to just buy a section 1 shotgun in the first place?!ive already become quite attached to my SXP so I’ll keep it but ideally I’d like it to be my section 1 Gun.

Anybody done this with the sxp or something comparable with a crimp in the mag tube?

cheers Matt

They won’t remove the crimp, just change the tube.

[impala59]

14 hours ago, Benkent said:

https://www.vortexdefense.com/product/mossberg-500-590-590a1-maverick-88-tactical-rail/

 

This is what I want lol.

Pretty spectacular that! See if they will ship to UK but be prepared for rip off shipping and customs charging. Maybe you know some one in the States who could order and then ship with minimal value declared? Or someone going there on hols who could get it. Many ways to explore!

[Benkent]

Great minds think alike mate that's what I was thinking I've actually got a cousin in Texas so might she can send it. I know customs can be a right rip off I ordered a couple of hpa lines when I was doing airsoft think they was about $170 with the shipping Mr ups turns up at the door and says that will be £48 please lol.

[kev56]

On 16/01/2018 at 08:48, Benkent said:

https://www.vortexdefense.com/product/mossberg-500-590-590a1-maverick-88-tactical-rail/

 

This is what I want lol.

Thats about £100 wow

[Ricko]

Still fancy a Squires Bingham pump...

[impala59]

1 hour ago, Ricko said:

Still fancy a Squires Bingham pump...

AKA Higgins, Armscor and Rock Island, great guns, probably the slickest action on any pump ever!

[Sco77w]

Hello again. Just affirming my place in the pump club with this new (to me) Ithaca DS Police Special. It joins my Supernova and Remington 870.  Family photo to follow

[theshootist]

Very cool! I put 100 shells though my 12 bore 37 featherlight today.

Is it still a 5 or 6 shot?

[impala59]

2 hours ago, Sco77w said:

Hello again. Just affirming my place in the pump club with this new (to me) Ithaca DS Police Special. It joins my Supernova and Remington 870.  Family photo to follow

Nice, I’ve always thought that the DSPS was a bit special, parkerised finish really suits the gun and uncheckered stock with ringed forend simply sets it off and apart from others. Congratulations on a fine addition to your cabinet!

[Scrumbag]

Very nice sir!

[Benkent]

On 23/01/2018 at 22:36, kev56 said:

Thats about £100 wow

I'd happily pay that plus for it. Looks awesome.

[impala59]

Good Day today!

Took a fairly decrepit, sticky actioned, Savage 79 with a broken (fractured) top tang safety housing ( part of the alloy trigger chassis) and converted it with scavenged other Savage/Stevens parts to a push through safety model. The mod also involved shifting the slide release from the rear of the trigger assembly to the front and re-profiling the slide stop itself. Had a few issues with timing and lock-up but now all sorted. found the cause of the sticky action, a slightly bent action connecting bar and now the gun is really nice and slick. Interesting to see how many common and similar parts between different models. For a cheap gun it ticks all boxes now.

Happy days!

[Sco77w]

Someone say pump club?

[Sco77w]

On 27/01/2018 at 23:36, theshootist said:

Very cool! I put 100 shells though my 12 bore 37 featherlight today.

Is it still a 5 or 6 shot?

I think it's 7 +1 (2 3/4" cartridges) but I've still not shot it. 

[impala59]

Outstanding collection!

Edited February 4, 2018 by impala59

[Sco77w]

4 minutes ago, impala59 said:

Outstanding collection!

Thanks. I gave the M37 a clean today and it has come up quite well. There's a bit of surface rust inside the mag tube that needs a good scrubbing out but if it shoots half as well as it looks I'll be a very happy man. 

[impala59]

Do you know which year it is? I have the serial numbers list if you wish a copy PM me with email address and I'll copy for you. The year will determine the trigger function type, 1. Original (most call it slam fire) 2. Standard 3. Interrupter (rarest)

I posted on the Ithaca Owners site my thoughts on the history of the trigger types which you may find interesting, pasted below:

This has been a subject that has bugged me for a time now and so after a little research I now present what I feel is a definitive answer (maybe setting myself up for a fall there) Firstly some (I won't call them facts as am sure to be reprimanded!) information, relevant to the subject There are three different types of trigger for the model 37, the slam fire, the standard and the fire interrupter. The slam fire dates from the beginning 1937 up to circa 1975 and so may be also called the Original. The standard, introduced in around 1975 until current and the fire interrupter introduced around 1976 predominantly for LE use. I am somewhat vague with dates as production used up old parts and items on the shelf in stores were sometimes modified. Also the Ithaca Gun Co. was famous for oddities during production 1 Slam Fire (Original) trigger. When a shot is fired and the trigger held back during the reload cycle, the next round will fire as the bolt goes into battery, the slide will trip the hammer sear. If the trigger is released during the action cycle, the hammer will remain in the down/back position until the trigger is pulled again 2 Standard trigger. When a shot is fired and the trigger is held back during the cycle the hammer will not be retained by the sear and will follow or ride the bolt back into battery, it will have insufficient inertia to hit the firing pin and so will sit in the up/forward position behind a live round and the gun will not fire until the trigger is released and the action cycled again (live round ejected) If the trigger is released during the reload cycle the gun will fire as normal as the hammer will be retained by the sear awaiting another trigger pull. 3 Fire Interrupter trigger. When a shot is fired and the trigger is held back, the hammer will be retained by a second sear, and, as the action is cycled and another round loaded releasing and pulling the trigger will fire the next shot. Again, if the trigger is released during the action cycle, the second sear is redundant and the normal sear takes effect. The Model 37 was developed from the Remington Model 17 and shares most of that guns design and features (JM Browning designed) In the early thirties Ithaca were looking at developing a pump gun and also seriously looked at the Winchester. How history could have been different! In the end patent expiry and the offer of manufacturing equipment from Remington (who had discontinued the M17 and were developing the M31) pointed the way. Now both of these potentials would 'slam fire', not as a feature but simply that was the way the mechanism worked. The Model 37 has the fewest internal parts of any pump action shotgun, it is this simplicity that has seen the gun through the last 80 years. Our grandfathers never saw the "danger of death" motto on every item that they purchased as we do today. They used common sense particularly with firearms. The so called 'slam fire ' was normal on many guns at that time. Today, litigation is king and we are treated as though we cannot think for ourselves or take responsibility for our actions. The military use of shot guns goes back way beyond the scope of this post, so I shall confine myself to the famous WW1 German demand for the banning of the trench gun (the also slam firing Winchester 1897) as a vile weapon when used by the doughboys for clearing trenches. How much worse than grenades, poison gas and artillery I can't imagine. One can imagine slamming your pump for all you were worth to clear a trench. The M37 was used in WW2 but it seems to have been most popular in Vietnam as a Platoon point weapon, where, using 00 buck, 72 9mm lead projectiles could be fired into the jungle in a few seconds using the slam fire. Additionally, a duck bill spreader was developed to improve the sideways spread. This formidable weapon was unsurpassed in this role. I believe that US military trainers would take into account the performance and features of any given weapon and train their users appropriately, maybe some of the Veterans on this forum would know for sure and feel able to comment. With Law Enforcement the issue is a little different. A LE officer who, using a slam fire trigger model 37 in a stressful situation, may keep his/her finger pressed on the trigger during an engagement or firefight and may well then encounter an Accidental/Negligent Discharge during the course of his or her duty. This, of course, the lawyers would jump all over. Like wise, using a standard trigger M37 in the same situation could find the officer with a dead gun in his or her hands with potentially fatal consequences. So was developed the 'fire interrupter' trigger which prevents both of these situations, albeit at the cost of some of the great simplicity of the M37 design. For sportsmen, hunters, wing shooters, clay busters, IPSC competitors and the like, any of the triggers will be as usable and safe as any other. With a sound knowledge of your gun (and shouldn't we all have that as a matter of course?) all of these triggers are safe. I should mention here that early guns that are worn should not be slam fired as there is a possibility of the hammer striking before the bolt is locked, any gunsmith or the Ithaca Gun Co. itself would be able to check and rectify. I do not know if the 'Fire interrupter' trigger is available from the Gun Co., it is mainly LE but was apparently offered as an option to the civilian market. Over this side of the pond, most things Ithaca are rare and very few LE guns have made the crossing! To finish I have satisfied myself that I understand how things were and are now, we all know that our M37's will always be referred to as that 'slam fire gun' I just think that we have firearms with a little more history than most and maybe that's why they seem to have more character than most. The above is my opinion only and quoted information is from a number of publications, primarily the excellent books by Walter Snyder and by examination of my collection and also those of some of my shooting pals. If I have wrongly quoted anything regarding US Military or LE practice then I am happy to stand corrected The original question posed by Mark (ChAoS) was about why have slam fire? I believe that in a different age it was simply why not? This was a tried and tested mechanism and, the gun would always fire and not fail when called upon, for defence or putting food on the table. All this achieved simply with few parts and the genius of JMB. Any documentation would be on the standard and fire interrupter trigger as these are the modifications from the original.

[Opossum]

That's interesting. My 1982 37 has the second trigger, where the hammer will follow the slide. I was worried about the "dead gun" situation but it's not happened yet

[Sco77w]

1 hour ago, impala59 said:

Do you know which year it is? I have the serial numbers list if you wish a copy PM me with email address and I'll copy for you. The year will determine the trigger function type, 1. Original (most call it slam fire) 2. Standard 3. Interrupter (rarest)

I posted on the Ithaca Owners site my thoughts on the history of the trigger types which you may find interesting, pasted below:

This has been a subject that has bugged me for a time now and so after a little research I now present what I feel is a definitive answer (maybe setting myself up for a fall there) Firstly some (I won't call them facts as am sure to be reprimanded!) information, relevant to the subject There are three different types of trigger for the model 37, the slam fire, the standard and the fire interrupter. The slam fire dates from the beginning 1937 up to circa 1975 and so may be also called the Original. The standard, introduced in around 1975 until current and the fire interrupter introduced around 1976 predominantly for LE use. I am somewhat vague with dates as production used up old parts and items on the shelf in stores were sometimes modified. Also the Ithaca Gun Co. was famous for oddities during production 1 Slam Fire (Original) trigger. When a shot is fired and the trigger held back during the reload cycle, the next round will fire as the bolt goes into battery, the slide will trip the hammer sear. If the trigger is released during the action cycle, the hammer will remain in the down/back position until the trigger is pulled again 2 Standard trigger. When a shot is fired and the trigger is held back during the cycle the hammer will not be retained by the sear and will follow or ride the bolt back into battery, it will have insufficient inertia to hit the firing pin and so will sit in the up/forward position behind a live round and the gun will not fire until the trigger is released and the action cycled again (live round ejected) If the trigger is released during the reload cycle the gun will fire as normal as the hammer will be retained by the sear awaiting another trigger pull. 3 Fire Interrupter trigger. When a shot is fired and the trigger is held back, the hammer will be retained by a second sear, and, as the action is cycled and another round loaded releasing and pulling the trigger will fire the next shot. Again, if the trigger is released during the action cycle, the second sear is redundant and the normal sear takes effect. The Model 37 was developed from the Remington Model 17 and shares most of that guns design and features (JM Browning designed) In the early thirties Ithaca were looking at developing a pump gun and also seriously looked at the Winchester. How history could have been different! In the end patent expiry and the offer of manufacturing equipment from Remington (who had discontinued the M17 and were developing the M31) pointed the way. Now both of these potentials would 'slam fire', not as a feature but simply that was the way the mechanism worked. The Model 37 has the fewest internal parts of any pump action shotgun, it is this simplicity that has seen the gun through the last 80 years. Our grandfathers never saw the "danger of death" motto on every item that they purchased as we do today. They used common sense particularly with firearms. The so called 'slam fire ' was normal on many guns at that time. Today, litigation is king and we are treated as though we cannot think for ourselves or take responsibility for our actions. The military use of shot guns goes back way beyond the scope of this post, so I shall confine myself to the famous WW1 German demand for the banning of the trench gun (the also slam firing Winchester 1897) as a vile weapon when used by the doughboys for clearing trenches. How much worse than grenades, poison gas and artillery I can't imagine. One can imagine slamming your pump for all you were worth to clear a trench. The M37 was used in WW2 but it seems to have been most popular in Vietnam as a Platoon point weapon, where, using 00 buck, 72 9mm lead projectiles could be fired into the jungle in a few seconds using the slam fire. Additionally, a duck bill spreader was developed to improve the sideways spread. This formidable weapon was unsurpassed in this role. I believe that US military trainers would take into account the performance and features of any given weapon and train their users appropriately, maybe some of the Veterans on this forum would know for sure and feel able to comment. With Law Enforcement the issue is a little different. A LE officer who, using a slam fire trigger model 37 in a stressful situation, may keep his/her finger pressed on the trigger during an engagement or firefight and may well then encounter an Accidental/Negligent Discharge during the course of his or her duty. This, of course, the lawyers would jump all over. Like wise, using a standard trigger M37 in the same situation could find the officer with a dead gun in his or her hands with potentially fatal consequences. So was developed the 'fire interrupter' trigger which prevents both of these situations, albeit at the cost of some of the great simplicity of the M37 design. For sportsmen, hunters, wing shooters, clay busters, IPSC competitors and the like, any of the triggers will be as usable and safe as any other. With a sound knowledge of your gun (and shouldn't we all have that as a matter of course?) all of these triggers are safe. I should mention here that early guns that are worn should not be slam fired as there is a possibility of the hammer striking before the bolt is locked, any gunsmith or the Ithaca Gun Co. itself would be able to check and rectify. I do not know if the 'Fire interrupter' trigger is available from the Gun Co., it is mainly LE but was apparently offered as an option to the civilian market. Over this side of the pond, most things Ithaca are rare and very few LE guns have made the crossing! To finish I have satisfied myself that I understand how things were and are now, we all know that our M37's will always be referred to as that 'slam fire gun' I just think that we have firearms with a little more history than most and maybe that's why they seem to have more character than most. The above is my opinion only and quoted information is from a number of publications, primarily the excellent books by Walter Snyder and by examination of my collection and also those of some of my shooting pals. If I have wrongly quoted anything regarding US Military or LE practice then I am happy to stand corrected The original question posed by Mark (ChAoS) was about why have slam fire? I believe that in a different age it was simply why not? This was a tried and tested mechanism and, the gun would always fire and not fail when called upon, for defence or putting food on the table. All this achieved simply with few parts and the genius of JMB. Any documentation would be on the standard and fire interrupter trigger as these are the modifications from the original.

Hi. Great thread. I checked the guns number before buying it an I think it came up as an '82 model. I didn't expect it to slam fire but I've loaded it with dummies and cycled it with my finger on the trigger and it seems to fire but I suspect it's the standard trigger. Won't know for sure til it's loaded with live rounds. 

I read that the 20" barrel and shorter were used by the military and police but what was the 24" one originally used for, is it a civilian version?

 

[impala59]

I will do a bit of research regarding the 24" Barrel DSPS but suspect that you are correct about the civilian version. I will let you know. To ascertain the trigger type when dry firing, stick a small piece of tape on the bolt face, cycle and check for perforation

[theshootist]

Very interesting. I would argue that the reason that slam fire existed was to do with design simplicity rather than meeting a need of a soldier to shoot quickly. The subsequent fixes were then done to cure a perceived safety issue with it. As for military application of slam fire, I'm not convined. If the military needed a shotgun to shoot quickly then the ultra reliable Browning auto 5 had been around well in time for WW1.

I do a bit of PSG and slam firing would not help me, although I'll conceded it may have been used at extreme close range in wartime. I thing it would be against a single point target though. 

[Sco77w]

8 hours ago, impala59 said:

I will do a bit of research regarding the 24" Barrel DSPS but suspect that you are correct about the civilian version. I will let you know. To ascertain the trigger type when dry firing, stick a small piece of tape on the bolt face, cycle and check for perforation

?

[Scrumbag]

Sco77!, That's a really nice collection!

Don't know if you are aware but Benelli make a dedicated 24" smooth bore rifle-sighted barrel for the Supernova.

My FAC Supernova I'm setting up for some target shotgun / practical. Got a speed bead mount coming as my receiver isn't drilled and tapped so that will be for slug matches and will use the express irons for practical.

Scrummy 

1 hour ago, theshootist said:

Very interesting. I would argue that the reason that slam fire existed was to do with design simplicity rather than meeting a need of a soldier to shoot quickly. The subsequent fixes were then done to cure a perceived safety issue with it. As for military application of slam fire, I'm not convined. If the military needed a shotgun to shoot quickly then the ultra reliable Browning auto 5 had been around well in time for WW1.

I do a bit of PSG and slam firing would not help me, although I'll conceded it may have been used at extreme close range in wartime. I thing it would be against a single point target though. 

I think you are probably right.