Fingerprint for a pint

[richie1606]

I think George Orwell was right when writing 1984. Big Brother really is watching you!!!!!!

[Hunter]

Not worried about CCTV. I know they have solved many cases.

BUT I dont want to have my DNA and prints taken, as if waiting for me to commit a crime and bust me quickly.

I dont have a problem with them taking samples from drug dealers, chav yobos etc, but I dont think inocent people should be treated like they are going to do something against the law. We work, We earn money, and where does it go? new technology to kill people and fuel wars, it goes into anything the goverment wants, and we are treated like puppets in a cage earning money for them to do whatever they want with.

This has nothing to do with the Police, I have been invlolved with them (legally!) several times, and I know they arent being big brothers on people, these things are made up and blamed on the closest lawful contact, but things like the ID actually come from the twonks running this country, and earning money off us. They would only earn more through the ID system

[OldBill]

I also hear from a good source that every 4th person will be required to commit suicide. The politians have kept tht one quiet too

[Hunter]

I wouldnt be suprised

[Highlander]

I also hear from a good source that every 4th person will be required to commit suicide. The politians have kept tht one quiet too

 

Now that's one I'd vote for but I speak in the 1st person so I'm alright jack!

 

OldBill you're biased and just like our politicians you're not listening to the (law abiding) majority who (like me) are sick and tired of bearing the brunt of all this new legislation (in, proposed or just at the brain storming stage).

 

If you wanna keep this topical just look at the FAC legals, the knife laws etc etc all designed to stop these things being used in crime BUT they don't. All that happens is law abiding people like the guys on pigeon watch are subjected to more and more rules and regulations.

 

Motorist come off just as badly and bear the brunt of funding the police force through fines etc whilst real criminals get hand outs and soft treatment.

 

ID cards not b***** likely. Once the powers that be have ALL our details what then? Just like the Jews in Nazi Germany or Stalins Russia once everyone is registered it's a lot easier to keep tabs on them and pull them in for God knows what BUT the criminals won't be 'cauise they'll all go underground or have fake ID. Again it'll just be joe public the ordinary man in the street that suffers...as usual.

 

Vote this government OUT next chance you get but make your vote for freedom!

[pin]

Police and council public place CCTV is NOT used to catch motorists. Other cameras are emplaced to do this. CCTV is a vastly useful tool, I cannot tell you enough how valuable a policing tool it is. I personally have knowledge of dozens of violent individuals being locked up because of it.

 

Useful tool it is, but don't come the "in addition to good policing" **** with us. CCTV is every senior managers officers dream. Simply reduce the number of expensive to train and even more expensive to keep officers and he comes in under budget, reported crime is down because a) you can't find a copper on the street when you need one, if at all the police station office where police hang about is normally closed or if it is open there is a 2 hour wait which nobody can be bothered with because minor crime isn't even investigated any more.

 

This whole **** with "reported crime", just because someone didn't report a theft doesn't mean it didn't happen, yet another load of absolute bull coming out of the ACPO's limp blairs-****-kissing mouth.

 

Policing in this country is a shambles, no such thing as "traffic officers" for most forces now, only "area cars", with the vast majority of the duties these essential officers used to undertake being performed by "highways agency officers" in fake police cars.

 

Utter unmitigated disgrace which I for one find almost beyond any reasonable defence.

[Suffolk shooter]

I can't speak for elsewhere, but where I am the CCTV camera are in ADDITION to bobbies, the numbers of bobbies have in fact increased since the year CCTV was rolled out. There are also dedicated non police staff used for monitoring them. In most places CCTV is co funded between the police, councils and local businesses funding is not directed away from policing to fund it. It is a very cost effective policing tool, is does not replace policing.

 

That would be as a result of the so called "SPECIALS" then would it?!?!?!?!?!

 

Part time Police wannabe's who also enjoy terrorizing innocent motorists, instead of kicking in the doors of Drug dealers big and small the country over, as well as letting people who regard our sport as murder frighten and intimidate at Hunt meetings, syndicate shoots.

 

Just explain to me where the bobbies go on a friday night in our local town then, not outside breaking up fights, no they are parked up in the lay-by down the road in the village I live in. Last weekend 3 cars and two vans, rough count of 15 coppers stood there while I had just driven through the town to see a fight involving 5 blokes and two women all P***** rolling around the road.

 

Oh yeah that's right its too much paperwork, or it's too close to shift change.

 

Live round here and you get sick and tired of the excuses made by the local community copper when he's approached about the subject. He always tells me that the force is too stretched not enough police.

 

The rubbish about funds not being deducted from the force maybe true, but on my council tax bill, it appears I am paying for the bloody things for the town that's 3 miles away. Just another Labour stealth tax to add to the ever increasing pile.

[Lord Geordie]

May i add i have read a more upto date version of the ID card legislation and it appears I was wrong about DNA.

 

It NOW seems they have dropped the idea of placing DNA on the card

 

 

i would like to take this chance to appologise flase information

 

Bud watch this space as the Legislation STILL hasn't been passed YET so there MAY be more changes to come including bringing DNA samples back on the agenda we will have to wait and see.

 

LG

[henry d]

May i add i have read a more upto date version of the ID card legislation and it appears I was wrong about DNA.

 

It NOW seems they have dropped the idea of placing DNA on the card

 

 

i would like to take this chance to appologise flase information

 

Bud watch this space as the Legislation STILL hasn't been passed YET so there MAY be more changes to come including bringing DNA samples back on the agenda we will have to wait and see.

 

LG

Ok all of you who are enraged please give LG a kicking

[Poacher]

Nice one LG

[OldBill]

...and meanwhile LG is sitting back and wetting himself. Nice

 

Do you need to change the breaking strength of the line with that many fish on the hook

[pin]

Fine regards DNA, what about the rest of the comments not based on this particular point? Am I to assume LG's poorly sized hook is to blame for the lack of comment on the rest of it?

[OldBill]

Sorry, I didn't comment as the general thread seemed to be about the misapprehension with regard to DNA / fingerprinting / misuse of CCTV etc.

 

As you probably well know, CCTV has not reduced police numbers. As for the general state of policing, I'm with you on that one it's a shambles. However, don't blame the bobbies. A recent survey in our force showed that we spend just 8% of our time looking for baddies. That's down to the paperwork I'm afraid. I have now completed 18 years in policing and can honestly say that the paperwork has probably multipled by at least 500% in that time, more likely by 1000%.

 

With regard to budgets, don't you have one at work? I think the most expensive police authority in the country takes £75-80 pounds per household per YEAR out of the council tax for policing. If you have a way of making this amount stretch further I'm sure the politicans would be glad to listen

 

I would like to see a return to policing instead of report taking. Why do we need to pay a bobbie £30k a year to take a crime report and take statements, when a non police employee could be employed to do it for £18k? Let the bobbie do the arrests and catching / deterring crime and let non police do the paperwork. We'll get a much better service that way.

 

I do my job for a couple of reasons:

 

1. To make money

2. To make a difference

 

I work because I have to- I would sooner not, but at least doing this job I get to help in some way. Corny as it sounds that's why I do what I do.

 

With regard to the rest of the post, the bobbies on the ground do the best they can. Your local bobbby (if you are fortunate enough to have one) doesn't make money from speed cameras, doesn't manage policing budgets, doesn't have a say over government policy or how is it applied. Like every job there are good and bad bobbies- I'm sure people here have stories of poor dealings with the old bill, some might even have good stories

 

Where I work we have 30 uniformed bobbies per shift to look after 200k people. Please don't take your frustrations out on me.

[Topgunners]

I can't speak for elsewhere, but where I am the CCTV camera are in ADDITION to bobbies, the numbers of bobbies have in fact increased since the year CCTV was rolled out. There are also dedicated non police staff used for monitoring them. In most places CCTV is co funded between the police, councils and local businesses funding is not directed away from policing to fund it. It is a very cost effective policing tool, is does not replace policing.

 

so where is "where I am"? because we don't have bobbies walking the streets here.. as I noticed you haven't filled in your profile

 

Dave K

[OldBill]

I can't speak for elsewhere, but where I am the CCTV camera are in ADDITION to bobbies, the numbers of bobbies have in fact increased since the year CCTV was rolled out. There are also dedicated non police staff used for monitoring them. In most places CCTV is co funded between the police, councils and local businesses funding is not directed away from policing to fund it. It is a very cost effective policing tool, is does not replace policing.

 

so where is "where I am"? because we don't have bobbies walking the streets here.. as I noticed you haven't filled in your profile

 

Dave K

 

 

You are quite correct.

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

As someone has said, it's all about balance.

 

The problem with being of mature years is that I well remember one numpty friend of mine who kept his shotgun on a rack in the living room (seen by everone that walked past) with a box of cartridges underneath it "In case I need to dash out in a hurry".

 

The other side of the coin is the pistol fiasco at Dunblane, where the local copper wanted the guys FAC to be withdrawn, and he was overruled by his superiors.

 

As result of this lots of law-abiding pistol shooters lost out. As a result of this a lot of coppers were dead chuffed because 'On average' the local copper sees any firearm as a threat as he may end up being threatened by one!

 

I personally see nothing wrong with everyone being tested for dna, as this would appear to be one way (we hope) of an impartial, certain way to detect criminals. I am sick of smart **** lawyers getting crooks off for spurious reasons, and if dna evidence can prevent this (and innocents going to jail) then I am all for it.

 

I also worry about 'One step too far', as any politician that can be trusted hasn't been born yet. Power does corrupt, and they may start off with good intentions, and then the part of the club bit takes over and they end up knowing better than the rest of us.

 

This country is still one of the best of the world to live in, and if you want to test this then hop on a plane to virtually country in Africa and South America.

 

It also ain't perfect, and things like this forum give us a chance to let off steam, and think about if we are totally right in our arguments, or if t'other chap causes us to pause and think.

 

Don

[pin]

OldBill:

 

I sympathise with the "bobby on the ground", I really do. My old man served 30 years and got out a long while back, he used to complain even then about the way it was going.

 

If we look at other "services" which are now being run as "businesses" we start to see the problem. The NHS, the rail network and the department of social security (or whatever they call it now they have 'rebranded').

 

Some things don't lend themselves to being run as a business, for profit or in the case of the police and NHS - "value". Focus is lost from the core values of the service and is placed instead on figures and the bottom line, you can't run a service like that. If you do, you end up with penny pinching managers who will do anything they can to justify their inflated pay packets to demonstrate "value". This means essential services are cut, bits are outsourced to the lowest bidder not the best provider for the "customers" of the "business".

 

A wholesale review of these organisations should be conducted with the worthless layer of middle management cut out like the cancer it is. When you stop people empire building and covering their own **** you might actually see some value for money

 

Bobbies on the street are what the people who pay for the service want to see, yet we are not listened too. Instead we have "initiatives" and "community policing" which simply isn't working, we are not being hoodwinked by it and it should stop.

 

Yes bobbies cost a lot more than "alternative policing", I don't care. If these several times removed from the real issue middle managers spent more time listening to what people want instead of spending millions on the latest fad policing methods, we might get somewhere.

 

Yes CCTV and things like ANPR etc are worthwhile technologies, but they should be used in conjunction with "grass roots" policing methods as an aid, NOT a replacement.

 

Nothing in anything I have said was intended as a personal attack on you oldbill, I admire your restraint and the fact that you will put forward your case even in the face of public adversity - a good discussion in my opinion

[il cacciatore]

May i add i have read a more upto date version of the ID card legislation and it appears I was wrong about DNA.

 

It NOW seems they have dropped the idea of placing DNA on the card

 

They may not initially make DNA a stipulation but they may change this at a later date. Its the age old trick, they want to introduce something controversial and try and push it through. Find out the public are against it then just take out the bits that the people are against then force them in later on. This achieves that A: you take away the voice of the opposition B changes the public perception and C you still get what you want because once it is in place its x10 harder to stop. DONT TRUST THE GOVERNMENT ON THEIR WORD.

 

If you haven't done anything wrong what's to worry about?

 

This is worrying coming from a policeman.

 

"If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" goes against the presumption of innocence which under the Declaration of Human Rights states:

 

Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

 

"If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" is based on that you are guilty until proven innocent as it compells you to prove your innocence (which is the same as presumption of guilt)

 

Guilty until proven innocent is a characteristic of authoritarian regimes such as the USSR, North Korea & DDR. It is immoral and unfair as it is difficult to prove your innocence. This allows abuse of the law to target whoever it wishes (in the case of the afore mentioned states: political opposition to the state) and if you cannot prove your innocence then you are removed. Guilty until proven innocent benefits noone and is a true disregard for the rule of law and some of the very principles on which our society is based.

 

If you have nothing to hide: you have everything to fear.

 

edit:

 

It shows that the government has contempt for the law as they are introducing all these measures that go against innocent until proven guilty: like the fingerprint for a pint. If you are innocent then you wont object to having your fingerprints taken (if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear). The presumption of innocence is the barrier to ultimate state control which they are trying to errode. Government has the tendency to perpetuate their own power and this is where the existence of the principle lies - to ensure protection from government.

[Lord Geordie]

il cacciatore wrote

 

"The PM has called that we have our DNA submitted if we are accused of a crime (which will happen anyway with the national ID card. They have already rolled out a scheme that you need to submit fingerprints for a pint. The pubs will loose their licences if they dont submit to the scheme. They will roll out this nation wide if deemed successful (they'll do it anyway). We are the most watched nation on the planet. This is the government that tried but failed to introduce a national curfew. Theyll search you on the bus and theyll put a black box in your car but where is it going?"

 

 

So I am blaming HIM ok

 

As for the size om my SMALL hook!! It's not the size that matter it's what you DO with it and i have hooked MANY a fine filly

 

Breaking strain of Wire is irrelevent the lighter the line the more you have to play the fish to land them. More Fun

 

Oh and as for CCTV a very good friend of mine (taxi driver) was fined using CCTV footage as evidence when he obstructed a Box junction in 1997

 

Now if you don't mind i am off to play with my new Lanber

 

LG

[il cacciatore]

Ok so I'm alittle out of date with the specifics of the ID card!? They will be logging (according to the NO2ID website):

 

The Act allows the recording of any biometric. It is likely that facial image, fingerprints and iris patterns will be used. Other biometrics include retina scans, voice patterns, hand measurements and even ear shape.

 

I'm pretty sure that they wanted to log DNA: though the Act allows recording of any biometric which would include DNA if they wished - thats what it sounds like from the NO2ID website. It will be compulsory to have one when they are introduced in 2008 and it will be compulsory to submit the information they request, whether they have outlined it just now or not - they can always change it at a later date to include DNA - and if you read the signals coming from Downing Street they keep repeating that giving them your DNA is a good idea so you could make a calculated guess that it will be included at some point in the future.

[Mungler]

Top news discussion point on BBC News 24 : "Should innocent people have their DNA kept on Police file".

 

Oh yes, here it comes and you heard it here first.... drip drip / chip chip there go our civil liberties....

 

Mind you from some of the posts on here I reckon there's one or two who have already got themselves measured up for the armbands and stormtrooper boots.

[Mungler]

Looks like whoever produces BBC News 24 and the Editor of the Telegraph must be avid readers of Pigeon Watch....

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...1/02/nspy02.xml

 

They note the dangers of "mission creep" where measures implemented to combat terrorism are then used to control society as a whole. Once it's in, it ain't coming out.