kdubya Posted May 27, 2013 Report Share Posted May 27, 2013 (edited) Couldnt agree more. A nice owner and a loving home would sort half these dogs out. so that's only 50% we need worry about then! what is it that makes grown men believe they can control a dog? when it wants to do what it wants to do, it will,regardless if your a dog whisperer or not. KW Edited May 27, 2013 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karpman Posted May 27, 2013 Report Share Posted May 27, 2013 so that's only 50% we need worry about then! what is it that makes grown men believe they can control a dog? when it wants to do what it wants to do, it will,regardless if your a dog whisperer or not. KW I'd say more of a competent owner, being nice will only carry you so far with a strong willed dog. Karpman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted May 27, 2013 Report Share Posted May 27, 2013 (edited) If a dog has the ability to kill it should NOT be in the public domain,its not an inanimate object it is a living thinking thing capable of rationalising if and when it should attack,there is no need to own something that CAN get the better of you as a pet. KW I think I see roughly where you're coming from, but do you think that you could take on a full grown lab or collie and be 100% confident of winning without knowing how to handle the situation? Even a spaniel could kill a child with ease. I've always wanted either a german shepherd or a mastiff. Neither of which I'd like to take on in a fight but I also feel that if treated and trained properly you should be ok. Sure there will be the rare occasion that statement is wrong, but in general dogs are only an issue if not handled correctly. I've spent my life around various breeds of dog and have only ever been attacked once, by a schnauzer with an attitude problem and an owner who was second in command! That thing was lab sized and I had it on it's side and completely helpless before it knew what was going on... In time I actually formed a decent bond with it and could go inside the house - more than anyone else working for the company could manage without the owners holding it back. I could actually lay down a command over the owner shouting and it would listen to me! I respect all breeds of dog as friendly until the individual proves otherwise. Saying a staffie for example is a bad dog is like saying every muslim is going to try to blow you up - that's just not how it is. You can't blame a group for the actions of an individual. Edited May 27, 2013 by njc110381 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 27, 2013 Report Share Posted May 27, 2013 kdubya - sadly, I have to agree. We have owned 7 dogs - 4 x German Shepherds and 3 x Akitas. The smallest was about 80lbs - the heaviest 140lbs. They all went to training / socialising sessions at a local dog club and I spent years training them to obey. That was an ongoing process, up to 11 years. Despite them coming to heel immediately, I eventually kept them on a lead every time we ventured out into a public place. They were kept securely behind locked gates and never let near friends or children, without me being there. I would never trust any dog with children and never believed that I could quickly stop them doing what they wanted, if the situation arose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted May 27, 2013 Report Share Posted May 27, 2013 I think I see roughly where you're coming from, but do you think that you could take on a full grown lab or collie and be 100% confident of winning without knowing how to handle the situation? Even a spaniel could kill a child with ease. I've always wanted either a german shepherd or a mastiff. Neither of which I'd like to take on in a fight but I also feel that if treated and trained properly you should be ok. Sure there will be the rare occasion that statement is wrong, but in general dogs are only an issue if not handled correctly. I've spent my life around various breeds of dog and have only ever been attacked once, by a schnauzer with an attitude problem and an owner who was second in command! That thing was lab sized and I had it on it's side and completely helpless before it knew what was going on... In time I actually formed a decent bond with it and could go inside the house - more than anyone else working for the company could manage without the owners holding it back. I could actually lay down a command over the owner shouting and it would listen to me! I respect all breeds of dog as friendly until the individual proves otherwise. Saying a staffie for example is a bad dog is like saying every muslim is going to try to blow you up - that's just not how it is. You can't blame a group for the actions of an individual. So you only consider that "should" is good enough? when WILL be OK is the needed answer KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malik Posted May 27, 2013 Report Share Posted May 27, 2013 so that's only 50% we need worry about then! what is it that makes grown men believe they can control a dog? when it wants to do what it wants to do, it will,regardless if your a dog whisperer or not. KW True, it will do what it wants. you just have to make it know whats right and wrong. If a dog is raised right and taught obedience it is more likely to be under control though. They have their moments. But they are loyal to a good owner. Some of these dogs have been bought up to be aggressive and learn on random things like chewing and hanging off car tyres in back gardens. In the dogs eyes... If it doesn't know any better, It will think it was doing right when it did something. Purely for the way it was brought up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 27, 2013 Report Share Posted May 27, 2013 Some of these dogs have been bought up to be aggressive and learn on random things like chewing and hanging off car tyres in back gardens. In the dogs eyes... If it doesn't know any better, It will think it was doing right when it did something. Purely for the way it was brought up. Having said that I wouldn't really trust any dog - the quote above highlights another dimension. Dogs that are not merely untrained or not under control, but trained to be more aggressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zx10mike Posted May 27, 2013 Report Share Posted May 27, 2013 yet to see a headline for a black miniature poodle getting the better of someone. KW welsh 1 is spot on a poodle could easy kill a child if it got it in its head.the difference is you don't see thick muppets that wanna look ard with poodles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malik Posted May 27, 2013 Report Share Posted May 27, 2013 Having said that I wouldn't really trust any dog - the quote above highlights another dimension. Dogs that are not merely untrained or not under control, but trained to be more aggressive. Yes, that is another cause for concern. Although dogs are what they are. A trained dog is more likely to be controlled than one that isnt. Same with breeds. Certain breeds have a different temperament to others. They will never be 100% controllable though. Ive seen labs that have been aggressive towards my dog and a poodle! But a friend who has a male akita that was running around playing with mine! Complete opposite to what you'd expect. One of my neighbours is a police officer, one of those first response unit guys. Over the years he has had plenty of ex police german sheps. Some have retired and eventually passed away, but he has had younger ones of about 2ish that didnt pass their obedience training.... Just shows, dogs can be predictable but never fully Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krugerandsmith Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 Seen it on the news mate, what a tragedy, one good thing, the dog got put down. Should have put the owners down as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilberts1989 Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 I don't need orders from someone daft enough to post the junk that you have. As for stating a fact - you need to look up the definition of "fact". Lets just agree to disagree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilberts1989 Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 Just for you Gordon Rottweilers were the number two breed of dog named in fatal human attacks from 1979 to 1998 in a report by the CDC. Dangerous behavior in Rottweilers results from their original breeding for aggressive guard dog traits. This tendency may extend towards other animals as well. Often injuries and maulings occur when an owner or passerby tries to separate fighting dogs, or unintentionally triggers a guarding behavior in a dog. In most cases, the type of behavior a Rottweiler exhibits is the result of past training (or lack thereof). Rottweilers may either be dangerous or benign, depending on the action taken by the owner in socializing the dog. The portrayal of Rottweilers as evil dogs in several fictional films and TV series, most notably in The Omen, has added to their negative publicity. Rottweilers are banned in many municipalities, some scattered countries, and are sometimes targeted as dangerous dogs by legislation. Many owners of Rottweilers are forced to obey state leash/muzzle laws, as in Germany and in France. Taken from http://www.gopetition.co.uk/petition/15961.html I'm not saying the are at all, I own one so I should know the temperament, I am saying how they USED to be portrayed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overandunder2012 Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 Just the sort of daft quote that gives dogs a bad name. :no: why he's telling the truth a few years ago it was rottys that were demonized and before that dobermans and before that german shepherds. the staffie is just the last in a long line of dogs to get bad press. there does need to be some serious changes in dog owner laws as we seem to have more idiots these days owning them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilberts1989 Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 Would dog licensing work? Firearms licensing doesn't stop gun crime, it's a shame its had to come to this and it may put a lot of dogs on the street. Maybe they should bring in mandatory insurance for dogs, just like we have to have for cars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 Would dog licensing work? Firearms licensing doesn't stop gun crime, it's a shame its had to come to this and it may put a lot of dogs on the street. Maybe they should bring in mandatory insurance for dogs, just like we have to have for cars neither of which will help if you are dead. The simple answer is some people have banned breeds as a status thing and they do give staffies a bad name as they do look similar. The give away is usually they are long legged versions and thicker set but people have cross bred them with staffies and various others and called them all sorts to avoid the law. The fundamental is most of the time they are like any dog loyal to the owner and nice pets but flip the switch and they can kill as shown, add to that being confined in small houses not walked and exercised properly and you have a potential problem. As far as training goes you don't teach a Jack Russel to kill rats or a pointer to point it is ingrained and much the same with these they are bred to fight and kill. You have to be very lucky to get the upper hand with one and two well that would sort out even the very experienced. There is no point to their ownership other than a status badge and as such the police have got to clamp down more on them. That may well be why the women involved this time are going for manslaughter that might shake a few owners up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilberts1989 Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 neither of which will help if you are dead. The simple answer is some people have banned breeds as a status thing and they do give staffies a bad name as they do look similar. The give away is usually they are long legged versions and thicker set but people have cross bred them with staffies and various others and called them all sorts to avoid the law. The fundamental is most of the time they are like any dog loyal to the owner and nice pets but flip the switch and they can kill as shown, add to that being confined in small houses not walked and exercised properly and you have a potential problem. As far as training goes you don't teach a Jack Russel to kill rats or a pointer to point it is ingrained and much the same with these they are bred to fight and kill. You have to be very lucky to get the upper hand with one and two well that would sort out even the very experienced. There is no point to their ownership other than a status badge and as such the police have got to clamp down more on them. That may well be why the women involved this time are going for manslaughter that might shake a few owners up Fair point you have there. I supose the majority of responsible dog owners already have pet insurance. I say the majority because I know it sometimes can be forgotten about, doesn't mean they aren't responsible owners though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 a lot of house insurance also covers you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old rooster Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 Basically it won't get any better until the responsibility for what the dog does is the owners, then if a dog killed somebody it would be the owner who got charged with manslaughter or if the dog was set on the victim, murder. That isn't going to happen though is it? Responsibility is a dirty word and throughout society there are more and more ways of stepping away from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 Old rooster you need to read more news they have been arrested on suspicion of Manslaughter http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-22672602 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 neither of which will help if you are dead. The simple answer is some people have banned breeds as a status thing and they do give staffies a bad name as they do look similar. The give away is usually they are long legged versions and thicker set but people have cross bred them with staffies and various others and called them all sorts to avoid the law. The fundamental is most of the time they are like any dog loyal to the owner and nice pets but flip the switch and they can kill as shown, add to that being confined in small houses not walked and exercised properly and you have a potential problem. As far as training goes you don't teach a Jack Russel to kill rats or a pointer to point it is ingrained and much the same with these they are bred to fight and kill. You have to be very lucky to get the upper hand with one and two well that would sort out even the very experienced. There is no point to their ownership other than a status badge and as such the police have got to clamp down more on them. That may well be why the women involved this time are going for manslaughter that might shake a few owners up I have just had to have a sit down, and put cold wet flannel on my forehead as I agree. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old rooster Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 Old rooster you need to read more news they have been arrested on suspicion of Manslaughter http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-22672602 Thanks for the link, very interesting. Bet they don't get anywhere with the charge though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asa Bear Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 Thanks for the link, very interesting. Bet they don't get anywhere with the charge though. I disagree. I think the CPS will make examples of these pair and at least charge them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperfection Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 Would dog licensing work? Firearms licensing doesn't stop gun crime, it's a shame its had to come to this and it may put a lot of dogs on the street. Maybe they should bring in mandatory insurance for dogs, just like we have to have for cars Dog licensing dont work-that was why it was scrapped because it was unenforcable. If you brought it back you would still have those people who obey the law and those who dont and since there is nobody to go around checking licences you're back to square one. Yes,you could have dog wardens do the checking,but for example my district council has one warden who has to cover atleast a dozen towns plus dozens of villages. If you employed more where does the money come from to pay them a wage? You could suggest a doggie tax which would cover the cost,but then people wouldnt pay it so you're back to square one again. There will always be dog attacks like there will always be car accidents,murders etc.Its just life im afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosd Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 As always, whenever a dog attack makes the headlines there is a drove of people coming on saying that their dog is as cuddly as a teddy bear!! I wonder what proportion of owners who's dogs have attacked thought theirs never would? I've said it before and I'll say it again...All "dangerous dogs" should be muzzled by law when out in public! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilberts1989 Posted May 28, 2013 Report Share Posted May 28, 2013 As always, whenever a dog attack makes the headlines there is a drove of people coming on saying that their dog is as cuddly as a teddy bear!! I wonder what proportion of owners who's dogs have attacked thought theirs never would? I've said it before and I'll say it again...All "dangerous dogs" should be muzzled by law when out in public! My dog isn't cuddly, he would rip anyone apart if he wanted. He has had the chance to rip someone apart when they tried to attack my misuses, how ever he used reasonable force if that makes sense. He brought the person to the floor and only punctured his skin with one tooth He could of ripped them from limb to limb but as he has had a good up bringing and knows right from wrong, he didn't. Apart from that he's just a 60kg soft idiot lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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