have BASC shot shooting in the foot?

[mudpatten]

Gunsmoke,

 

Sorry to be the one to point this out,but you are still stuck in the same BASC slagging groove as before.

 

Your comments are not serving any valid purpose.

 

How is your own personal campaign going to address the issues that BASC , from your perspective, has failed to do.

 

You keep avoiding this question and I `m rapidly being forced to the conclusion that you don`t actually have any strategy whatsoever. All you want to do is destroy BASC.

 

I`m not a psychiatrist, but your refusal to even acknowledge the need to move forward is deeply troubling.

[David BASC]

Kes,

 

You are looking in the wrong place, its not the Lead Advisory Group, its the Lead Ammunition Group - http://www.leadammunitiongroup.co.uk/

[Kes]

http://www.leadammunitiongroup.co.uk/pdf/Fera%20-%20Lead%20Shot%20-%20Review%20of%20evidence%20by%20Roger%20Quy.pdf

 

Primary source documents for the LAG v interesting reading. It concludes (one of many) that training shooters to kill more competently would reduce distress to shot species more significantly then lead ingestion - maybe thats the next target ?

[Kes]

Kes,

 

You are looking in the wrong place, its not the Lead Advisory Group, its the Lead Ammunition Group - http://www.leadammunitiongroup.co.uk/

Thank you David I found my error and have amended the 'offending' post.

[David BASC]

Kes, the 2002 study was done by the RSPB.

 

Martin Spray has recently toned down his stance and said on BBC TV a couple of weeks ago that the multi organisational stance on compliance was a good thing and if compliance increased he saw no need for a ban. What he will say next week of course is anyone's guess...

 

I would not disagree that low compliance is damaging, non-compliance lays us open to claims that current regulation is inadequate and enforcement can only be achieved by introducing yet more laws.

 

Regarding other questions about Scandinavia I will find out more details, I will contact FACE and ask.

David

Edited July 31, 2013 by David BASC

[Kes]

David - I appreciate the comments but several more things concern me. The 'examples' quoted in the LAG primary source documents are from everywhere it seems but UK. Australia New Zealand, USA Canada, Scandinavian. Some Wildfowl are migratory as we know - some species of swans e.g. is their lead level due to shooting in UK - I wouldn't think so. Possible 'errors' like this are not referred to in any study. The WWF paper and website is uncompromising - they will push hard for a complete ban. The Primary source papers from the LAG freely admit the problems with guns, NTS etc but seemingly conclude the evidence from elsewhere is overwhelming. Source documentation needs a critical look and a targeted demolition of erroneous inferences. Any prospect of new sampling has to be completely transparent. Nothing in any documentation anywhere seems to refer to the veracity of results from tested waterfowl, in respect of sourcing - but then if your agenda was a ban, why would you ? BASC was NOT involved in sourcing samples nor checking it seems, as no-one can confirm whence the samples came.

For me there is a lot here to question. I have only just started however since you suggested I look, I will and post everything relevant - good or bad.

 

I can see why BASC might be tempted to swim with the tide but I hope you rely instead on critical appraisal - as I have suggested previously.

It isnt 'unreal' to do what Gunsmoke at al are doing its an expression of frustration and lack of full knowledge which drives mistrust - I know.

[andrewluke]

Extract from a Press Article - Oct 2012 - worth a read.

It is estimated that during the early 1990s about 160 tonnes of lead fell to the ground in the UK from spent shotgun pellets, with about 1.6 billion pellets deposited in the wetlands alone. Lead shot can persist for hundreds of years and are readily ingested by waterfowl when the pellets are mistaken for food or grit.

Tests on nearly 300 waterfowl sampled at four sites in Britain during 2010 and 2011 found that 34 per cent of them had elevated levels of lead in their bloodstream, said Debbie Pain, leader of the study published in the European Journal of Wildlife Research.

“Our results indicate that lead poisoning has continued to affect a wide range of British waterbirds long after legal restrictions were introduced,” Dr Pain said.

Fourteen species of ducks, geese and swans were found to have been killed by lead poisoning. Postmortem tests revealed that the gizzard of some birds contained up to 438 pieces of lead shot, the scientists found.

 

 

 

it looks as if we could be accused of non complience for many decades to come even if there was 100% complience???

 

 

andrew

[David BASC]

Kes,

 

I don’t honestly know if this is an exhaustive list of all the papers LAG have reviewed.

 

The effects of lead on vertebrates is very well established, so from the perspective of dietary lead, it makes no difference where the tests are carried out, the results would be the same.

 

Similarly, lead ingested by a duck will have the same effect regardless of where the duck happens to be, but of course the geology of the soil / silt the shot lands on dictates how long it is available to water birds feeding / gritting up in the area.

 

There are the migratory issues I agree, and there is also the issue of wildfowl picking up historical lead shot too, this was the case in the recent case where a duck farmer lost a lot of his stock when he put them onto land where fall out shot from a shooting ground (long closed I believe) was on the ground.

 

As to future testing, I would agree without hesitation, duck samples must have their provenance checked, possibly down to the shoot or shoots they come from?

 

I understand the frustration, but as I have said at the moment DEFRA are in control and they will do nothing at all on lead shot until the LAG report lands with them, they won’t move for a ban nor will they move towards any changes in the law. This may seem like nothing’s going on, but that’s the way if it at the moment within the political process, as the other organisations who were so vocal on ‘we will save lead shot’ have found out…

[Kes]

 

 

it looks as if we could be accused of non complience for many decades to come even if there was 100% complience???

 

 

andrew

Andrew - That is true - evidence from the USA and lead sampling in this country suggests that on clay soils lead shot does not migrate downwards (out of the reach of wildfowl) for a good number of years. The evidence does however appear to be slightly conflicting and those who choose to cite the figures suggest that samples from 0 to 300 mg/kg are possible in UK, where shooting takes place. The latter levels, unsurprisingly are where there are clay shoots over wetlands which were sampled. This evidence used in these reports really does need a serious sifting.

[David BASC]

As promised I have been looking into how the restrictions on lead have impacted shooting in Scandinavia etc. Thus far it would seem that shooters / hunters have simply got on with it.

 

However, I will be asking reps of some of the hunting organisations out there whether hunting has increased, decreased or remained the same since the restrictions.

 

Having said that, it’s also my understanding that much of their hunting is along the lines of what we would classify as wildfowling or rough shooting.

 

David

[eyeglass]

The article below was/is flaged up on the CA website – click on the link: –

Exposed: RSPCA drills into cops' databases, harvests private info Animal charity gets its paws on police data - and nobody appears to be watching

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/30/rspca_runs_wild_with_police_national_computer/

 

Read this article and be very afraid when you put your details on the Compliance ‘Pledge’ website.

 

 

It should be remebered that when you enter your information on the ‘Plege’ website you will have entered you address when you enter your name and postcode.

 

When you have read the article above read the EYEGLASS Post No. 148 page 8. It has a copy of an email that was doing the rounds that also flags up a similar scenario.

 

That email was written and put about before the Article above was put on the CA website. What the email says about databases is spot on. I have also re-copied it below: -

 

 

 

‘Well now we know courtesy of the BBC that, 1 in 12 ducks die from lead poisoning, and that 45% of the shooting public are of criminal intent and do not comply with the on restrictions lead ammunition.

 

None of it true but the lie has been made good, lauded and enshrined, in the glow of media.

 

We witnessed this week BBC producers officiating at the same sex marriage of the WWT and the BASC on TV in Country File.

 

Same sex marriage you cry in alarm? Because they are both of the same anti-lead persuasion. They both hate lead and pledged to each other, 25 years ago, to work to ‘phase-out’ all lead ammunition over 20 years. Not shooting mind you, but Lead. All embarked upon without a shred of UK evidence to support the objective.

 

The BASC analysis was that steel was the perfect alternative to replace lead. That has been its hidden agenda ever since. At the beckoning of the WWT, the BASC embraced the AEWA as its alibi with the blessing of Hilary Benn, and the new Labour Government approved its adoption. The mission got off to a good start.

 

Blown a bit off course in the last 5 or 6 years, it has come back all guns firing. Hand in hand with the WWT’s simpering praise for the ‘Campaign for Compliance launched by the BASC. The BASC/WWT deal is now consummate. The future has been set.

 

Look forward to a BASC policeman inspector in every English field. Mock not, that inspector will be a BASC member, an informer shooting alongside you, with an ingratiating smile on his/her face. Mandatory signing of the ‘Pledge’ as it is now called will be a standing order. Members will be fined for breaches of BASC’s laws, not the Country’s laws mark you.

 

At the right political moment, with the right political friends, mandatory membership of BASC on renewal of your shotgun certificate will be imposed and implemented.

 

Welcome to the British-Stasi of Shooting and Coercion. Watch out for a knock on the door from a BASC inspector in future, as they will be given open access to the gun licence files held by the police. They will come to count the number of lead loaded cartridges in you possession and what is in your deep freezer.

 

It will all be incremental but the first steps have already been taken.

 

Indeed BASC, have already started to ask in an accusative tone of voice, those ‘posting’ on Pigeon Watch Forums, if they have signed the ‘pledge’?

 

All of this arises out of that initial secret handshake between the WWT and the BASC. The next joint enterprise was the Lead Ammunition Group.

 

Then came the launch of the joint production of the false, and malign WWT/BASC 2010 report on Compliance. The blue touch paper of deception was lit. The mechanics of this project was assembled in DEFRA’S Wild Birds policy Team office Bristol, a stone throw away from the WWT base at Slimbridge.

 

Then the rounding up of the rest of the shooting organisations took place. They were gulled into signing up to the ‘Joint Statement’. Presumably persuaded that the WWT had conceded ground in a ‘Deal’, the nature of which was hinted at in Country File.

 

The deal rests upon the acceptance of a concoction of false allegations gift wrapped in WWT/BASC 2010 report on Compliance. This was and is the wedding gift presented to the WWT and BASC by Hillary Benn.

 

The shooting public is now urged to sign up to the same lie to smooth over the folly of shooting’s representatives. Remember all those who have not taken the pledge will be known by measuring the list of names and email addresses of those who have against the list of 650,000 innocent shotgun licence holders and then comes the knock at the door.

All fantasy of course? Well BASC set up and runs and has access to all of the data on the ‘pledge’ website.

 

Simple, set up a false accusation, call it science, dress it up as a moral imperative, acquire the imprimatur of DEFRA and then blackmail the target constituents. Some might see this as a protection racket to induce membership with an offer they cannot refuse. Mission creep at its finest. All incremental. All fantasy of course?

 

But given the abuse of on-line personal data, is it worth taking the risk of signing up? What is certain is it will not save lead as there will be another report to assess the level of compliance. Think who is going to be asked to do it. Do you trust them?’

 

 

Hillary Benn MP: Minister at DEFRA in the last government. Anti-hunting – anti-shooting. He is consistent he is a Vegan. He is still a Labour MP and is in the ‘shadow’ government. Watch out.

 

[Terry P]

Kes, thanks for putting in the effort to find all that info, it does make for interesting reading, and I really hope gives BASC something to think about.

 

Eyeglass, I'm starting to think you could damage shootings image more than the whole lead issue

[Zapp]

Eyeglass, please stop reposting the same thing over and over - it is unhelpful and clutters the thread up. That's the third time you've posted it, make it the last please.

[David BASC]

All the data on the pledge site is secure, it is not accessible from outside, nor will the data be passed onto anyone.

 

Eyegalss, I am not alone I guess with getting a bit sick and tired of your constant re-posting of comical nonsense you created...and yes it probably does do much more harm than good, something you seem to have lost sight of.

 

All the LAG stuff is indeed interesting i agree, and would encourage anyone with a real interest to read though that if you get a chance. Of course if you have any questions you can contact LAG directly.

 

At the same time if there are any specific issues you would like BASC’s view on just ask and I will do all I can to help.

 

 

David

Edited August 1, 2013 by David BASC

[aris]

I'd be curious to know how it has has affected clay pigeon shooters too - competitive and not. Do they practise with steel at home then use lead in foreign competitions?

[David BASC]

I will see what I can find out.

 

On steel for clays by the way, it’s been said that steel presents a great ricochet risk.

 

All I know is that I have never had a steel shot ricochet claim, and in 2008 there was an independent study done by a ballistics expert Dr Allsop from Cranfield University. The research found that lead ricochets more than expected, but steel poses little extra risk.

 

But there is, of course, the issue of plastic wads.

 

David

[chrispti]

The article below was/is flaged up on the CA website – click on the link: –

Exposed: RSPCA drills into cops' databases, harvests private info Animal charity gets its paws on police data - and nobody appears to be watching

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/07/30/rspca_runs_wild_with_police_national_computer/

 

Read this article and be very afraid when you put your details on the Compliance ‘Pledge’ website.

 

 

It should be remebered that when you enter your information on the ‘Plege’ website you will have entered you address when you enter your name and postcode.

 

When you have read the article above read the EYEGLASS Post No. 148 page 8. It has a copy of an email that was doing the rounds that also flags up a similar scenario.

 

That email was written and put about before the Article above was put on the CA website. What the email says about databases is spot on. I have also re-copied it below: -

 

 

 

‘Well now we know courtesy of the BBC that, 1 in 12 ducks die from lead poisoning, and that 45% of the shooting public are of criminal intent and do not comply with the on restrictions lead ammunition.

 

None of it true but the lie has been made good, lauded and enshrined, in the glow of media.

 

We witnessed this week BBC producers officiating at the same sex marriage of the WWT and the BASC on TV in Country File.

 

Same sex marriage you cry in alarm? Because they are both of the same anti-lead persuasion. They both hate lead and pledged to each other, 25 years ago, to work to ‘phase-out’ all lead ammunition over 20 years. Not shooting mind you, but Lead. All embarked upon without a shred of UK evidence to support the objective.

 

The BASC analysis was that steel was the perfect alternative to replace lead. That has been its hidden agenda ever since. At the beckoning of the WWT, the BASC embraced the AEWA as its alibi with the blessing of Hilary Benn, and the new Labour Government approved its adoption. The mission got off to a good start.

 

Blown a bit off course in the last 5 or 6 years, it has come back all guns firing. Hand in hand with the WWT’s simpering praise for the ‘Campaign for Compliance launched by the BASC. The BASC/WWT deal is now consummate. The future has been set.

 

Look forward to a BASC policeman inspector in every English field. Mock not, that inspector will be a BASC member, an informer shooting alongside you, with an ingratiating smile on his/her face. Mandatory signing of the ‘Pledge’ as it is now called will be a standing order. Members will be fined for breaches of BASC’s laws, not the Country’s laws mark you.

 

At the right political moment, with the right political friends, mandatory membership of BASC on renewal of your shotgun certificate will be imposed and implemented.

 

Welcome to the British-Stasi of Shooting and Coercion. Watch out for a knock on the door from a BASC inspector in future, as they will be given open access to the gun licence files held by the police. They will come to count the number of lead loaded cartridges in you possession and what is in your deep freezer.

 

It will all be incremental but the first steps have already been taken.

 

Indeed BASC, have already started to ask in an accusative tone of voice, those ‘posting’ on Pigeon Watch Forums, if they have signed the ‘pledge’?

 

All of this arises out of that initial secret handshake between the WWT and the BASC. The next joint enterprise was the Lead Ammunition Group.

 

Then came the launch of the joint production of the false, and malign WWT/BASC 2010 report on Compliance. The blue touch paper of deception was lit. The mechanics of this project was assembled in DEFRA’S Wild Birds policy Team office Bristol, a stone throw away from the WWT base at Slimbridge.

 

Then the rounding up of the rest of the shooting organisations took place. They were gulled into signing up to the ‘Joint Statement’. Presumably persuaded that the WWT had conceded ground in a ‘Deal’, the nature of which was hinted at in Country File.

 

The deal rests upon the acceptance of a concoction of false allegations gift wrapped in WWT/BASC 2010 report on Compliance. This was and is the wedding gift presented to the WWT and BASC by Hillary Benn.

 

The shooting public is now urged to sign up to the same lie to smooth over the folly of shooting’s representatives. Remember all those who have not taken the pledge will be known by measuring the list of names and email addresses of those who have against the list of 650,000 innocent shotgun licence holders and then comes the knock at the door.

All fantasy of course? Well BASC set up and runs and has access to all of the data on the ‘pledge’ website.

 

Simple, set up a false accusation, call it science, dress it up as a moral imperative, acquire the imprimatur of DEFRA and then blackmail the target constituents. Some might see this as a protection racket to induce membership with an offer they cannot refuse. Mission creep at its finest. All incremental. All fantasy of course?

 

But given the abuse of on-line personal data, is it worth taking the risk of signing up? What is certain is it will not save lead as there will be another report to assess the level of compliance. Think who is going to be asked to do it. Do you trust them?’

 

 

Hillary Benn MP: Minister at DEFRA in the last government. Anti-hunting – anti-shooting. He is consistent he is a Vegan. He is still a Labour MP and is in the ‘shadow’ government. Watch out.

 

 

Your an anti !!! :blink:

[Dangerous Brian]

I will see what I can find out.

 

 

But there is, of course, the issue of plastic wads.

 

David

There is another thread going in the reloading section at the moment. For 12 gauge there is a fibre option in steel from Gamebore. (thanks to all on that thread who put me onto them). The choice is limited at present but it might be worth asking the manufacturs whether they will expand the menu in that format, especially in standard steel. Not tried them yet but will be looking around for them to perhaps try a box or two.

 

Edit: Dodgy spelling (again)

 

Edited August 1, 2013 by Dangerous Brian

[Kes]

Recognising the risks, why do we not have a truly alternative NTS for those who MAY choose to go that way voluntarily ? I do mean for older guns, in case the wildfowlers get upset.

I shall be trying some American steel if I can get hold of some and some Swedish - best to be prepared for the inevitable. The WWT will also push for a complete ban on lead because it is deposited (as they say on their website), in fields and moorlands used by ducks and waders. Rifle ammunition will not escape in my view. This debate and the consequences are beyond BASC's control or anyone else's, thanks to unchallenged research and also unproven sourcing of test samples. The compliance issue, even if 100% is achieved, will be washed over in a tidal wave of anti lead opposition - you can see it forming, with no-one to stop it. Some intelligent demolition of the findings needs to be done if we even have a chance of retaining lead with the compliance pledge. Otherwise, in my view we are 'dead in the water' - forgive the wildfowling pun.

Who will be to blame ? What will be the next target - wounding with unsuitable ammunition and untrained shooters - training courses will become mandatory for all shooters if this is the next target. And thus will shotting be depleted further as costs and the number of hurdles rise - far more successful for the antis than a hike in licencing costs.

Reading the LAG papers and other stuff is all it takes to form this view.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Kes

[Piebob]

Recognising the risks, why do we not have a truly alternative NTS for those who MAY choose to go that way voluntarily ? I do mean for older guns, in case the wildfowlers get upset.

I shall be trying some American steel if I can get hold of some and some Swedish - best to be prepared for the inevitable. The WWT will also push for a complete ban on lead because it is deposited (as they say on their website), in fields and moorlands used by ducks and waders. Rifle ammunition will not escape in my view. This debate and the consequences are beyond BASC's control or anyone else's, thanks to unchallenged research and also unproven sourcing of test samples. The compliance issue, even if 100% is achieved, will be washed over in a tidal wave of anti lead opposition - you can see it forming, with no-one to stop it. Some intelligent demolition of the findings needs to be done if we even have a chance of retaining lead with the compliance pledge. Otherwise, in my view we are 'dead in the water' - forgive the wildfowling pun.

Who will be to blame ? What will be the next target - wounding with unsuitable ammunition and untrained shooters - training courses will become mandatory for all shooters if this is the next target. And thus will shotting be depleted further as costs and the number of hurdles rise - far more successful for the antis than a hike in licencing costs.

Reading the LAG papers and other stuff is all it takes to form this view.

 

Pretty much where I am. And has been the underlying point of my postings. I want BASC, via David, to understand that I feel they need to be doing an awful lot more than simply pushing a compliance message. I see no evidence that they are, or that they intend to, though. But I also believe that BASC is the only organisation that may be able to have some impact, so I won't be stopping my direct debit any time soon. Frustrating though.........

[David BASC]

By true alternative I trust you mean something that’s about as heavy and as soft as lead, and about the same price as lead? If not apologies for missing the point! The cartridge boys around the world have been looking for this but no joy yet.

 

Steel of course is the closest, certainly on price and for that matter ballistic performance, although as others have said you need to adjust your style and I know its not everyone’s cup of tea.

 

Gamebore have the fiber wads, and I think there is more work needed here , improvements to be made I feel.

 

Feedback from Denmark via the Danish Hunters’ Association by the way, is that neither the number of hunters nor the annual bag changed significantly since the introduction of a ban on the use of lead shot.

 

As what can we do to fight for lead – compliance just happens to be top of the tree at the moment, that’s why it’s got such a profile, in the UK there is going to be loads of lobbying to do once the LAG report is published, and in Europe there is and will remain the need to lobby Mep’s et al…

 

David

[sitsinhedges]

What about the small gauges that haven't enough space for steel shot? A 1000% increase in cartridge prices maybe

[Guest cookoff013]

@david

you probly havent had any steel ricochet claims because there probly arnt that many people using it. although i`d expect that to increase when steel usage increases in skeet environment.

 

the small gauges will suffer the most with steel, but the ;flip side to that, when reloaded with expensive nontoxics would be better as sub 1oz loads are used. (0.5oz .410 and 5/8oz 28gauge)

there was an article about shooting geese with 1/2oz #7 steel. - i`d be unhappy with using that at any distance over 7-8 inches.

 

the crazy thing is, shell manufacturers complained that the price of lead was driving prices up. even the steel shells increased. and the price of lead excuse was still used.

 

if we did do steel, the cartridge prices should plumet. because steel is way cheaper, but i`m guessing the price of lead shells will stagnate that too.

 

steels nontoxic classification is quite a story.

[al4x]

wait till the claims come in when you use steel for ground game and on hare drives etc..........

[David BASC]

I agree that due to the low use of steel claims will be small, but in 13 years not to have even heard of one is unusual. I will look at the USA and Europe too out of interest.

 

I see plenty of claims already for ricochet from lead off paths, water, trees... I have even had a claim for a full bore bullet that ricochet off several trees before hitting someone. As I said above the research thus far has shown little difference in ricochet risk between steel and lead. Any shot can and does ricochet of course.

 

Having said that in some cases there will be increased risk as you indicated cookoff; I would say, based on European feedback from clay grounds, that in some cases you would certainly need some extra shielding on skeet for example

 

As to smaller gauges, as I said before, I have been talking to some cartridge manufacturers and they are looking at shorter / smaller loads in some cases using non lead shot, but again as I said its a matter of supply and demand.

 

I would agree. 7's are way too small for geese!

 

David