went to church today

[henry d]

Ok I'm game.

 

Lets see if we can sift out some of your rubbish before answering your questions. It is not 2000 years old it is about 3- 3400 years old (another 100 years older if you add on Abram). It is now a book but used to be scrolls Still got any of the originals that were written by an eye witness by any chance?. It isn`t a chinese whisper although it was originally orated, For how many years was it orated? remember 12 yo boys had to recite the Pentateuch absolutely verbatim in front of the family, tribe and the 12 assembled tribes, so there would be no chance of error You seriously think there is no room for error? Thousands of people many of whom never met anyone but their immediate neighbours living in isolated areas hundreds of miles from other groups with little or no communication with the wider world and you think they would repeat exactly the same story to other groups after how many years of isolation? Language was ancient Hebrew, or "habiru" iirc and there are no versions just translations. Are you sure your version came 1st? All the versions translations that evolved into other religions happened at the same time by coincedence did they or is this what happens when you launch a chinese whisper?

A long time before the "bloke" etc. there was the creation story, glad you recognise it as a story, they didn't know what had created the earth so they made it up. which has been verified by science (Big bang theory) we then rattle swiftly through the history of Israel which is historically verified by by other nations tablets, steles and cylinders which still exist today along with treaties, lists, dockets, letters, tablets, inscriptions.... that the Israelite nation had no influence on what was written on them and we get to the year dot.

 

Few questions for you now;

Even if you are a clever educated man how do you get people to follow you through the desert for 40 years? Easy, form a gang, man has done it from the off & still does it, there are plenty of "gangs" still wandering the deserts of the world today, it's called pack mentality.

How did the educated men end up getting themselves and their nation taken off into exile? Bumped into a bigger, harder gang.

Where is the evidence that refutes the Gospels and letters? Science, logic & common sense.

Going back to creation, if the observable and unobservable universe popped into existence as science tells us, how is that more likely to have happened and immaculate conception not? It didn't, it took billions of years & is an ongoing construction project. Immaculate conception? Please think about that, a sky fairy implants a fertilised egg in a random woman's womb?

 

Even with modern communications we, in our tiny island, tell different versions of stories that happened just a matter of a few years ago, our language has changed almost out of recognition in a few hundred years. I repeat, your story is a fairy tale, believe it if you wish but how anyone can believe their merciful god allowes all the horrors of this world for a reason is beyond me.

 

Good night.

 

Morning, hope you are feeling better? I was up a highseat last night so missed the fun and games. I`m sorry but the above seems like a rant, you have missed what I said in there.

Here are a few points you seemed to miss, the original stories, yes they are stories and the word story does not mean they are not true (cf. Job, probably a play) and were transmitted orally, to us in the 21st century it seems impossible because we have so much other "stuff" to deal with, yet to iron age man they were easily remembered (cf. Cicero orations in Greece etc.). So basically I cannot give you an original or an eye witness until about 1000BCE when this chiefly nomadic tribe started to get into agriculture big time. They lived in the desert for 40 years all together, before that they lived in the Nile delta area for 2-300 years and had to live apart from the Egyptians so were in a communal group, therefore not isolated, however if you have further evidence please enlighten us as the above is historically and archaeologically verifiable (excepting the exodus). You missed what I was saying about translations, they did not speak English, so the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, that the books of the Bible were written in, had to be translated.

Thanks for the short answers to the questions

 

Sorry for the edit finger trouble

Edited July 16, 2013 by henry d

[Grandalf]

Funny how atheists always rant and god followers preach. According to the god followers...

[henry d]

No preaching, just setting the record straight. If you want a lesson then I will gladly give one? I have a good one on the suffering servant (Isa 53) if you fancy?

[Canis]

I can't believe that this thread has reached 6 pages without someone pointing out that going to church on a Sunday is wrong - you should be going shooting.on a Sunday

 

While i broardly aprove of christian valves (although i think the new testament was slightly too "guardian reader" for me) I find most organised religeon, usually by accident, exploits the vulnerable.

[henry d]

I can't believe that this thread has reached 6 pages without someone pointing out that going to church on a Sunday is wrong - you should be going shooting.on a Sunday

 

...but I live in Scotland.

[Sheldon Cooper]

Everyone should read books on this subject by Richard Dawkins and Christopher hitchens. In my opinion they blow religion out of the water.

[retromlc]

For me, region was invented by men to direct and guide men,to explain the questions,e.g why have the crops failed? etc,then these priest became egos and controlling,YOU HAVE MADE THE GODS UNHAPPY! And they enjoyed the power God gave them over their flock.

Zelots started imposing their views on others and killed anyone who disagreed with them

They have used religion as a tool for good,but also mainly as a tool for power,suppression and control.to aquire land and money.

Would a loving God allow all the slaughter done by man in his name to continue?

People are generally vernurable and seek answers to the reason of their existance,they want to believe they are important in the grand scale of things and they are afraid of death and becoming nothing,so the afterlife is appealing.

I am shocked that people even fall for God,everything else,Dragons,elves,unicorns flying pigs have all been forgotten,but mans disire to be of value blinds them to the obvious.

I have wanted to believe- who wouldn't but many many yaers ago I realised it just doesn't stack up.

on a personal note i spent 2 .5 years in a childrens cancer ward watching my son die.

It was in London and was mulitcutural.Every possible region was there,and the exptreamley devout ones too,there were Muslims,in the full Burka kit,Orthadox Jews,Chrisitians,Hindus ,all of them facing the same outcome and they believed thier God would save their Kids.

The worse people to deal with were the Muslims and Jews,they don't consider anybody except themselve as worthy,They were selfish,inconsiderate and behaved very inconsiderably to everyone as they did their thing regardless of the negative impact on others around them.

I felt sorry for them as when their kids died,and a lot of them died horrably they were stunned as they couldn't believe God would let their kids die.It was only then that they might achknowelege you were even in the ward.

personally i'm happy that there is no god,I would hate to think that this being,who apparently has a plan and an interest in everyone would permit this Human Being he created to behave the way it does at times,

[overandunder2012]

6 pages because someone went to church, its doing well

Edited July 16, 2013 by overandunder2012

[Gimlet]

Everyone should read books on this subject by Richard Dawkins and Christopher hitchens. In my opinion they blow religion out of the water.

 

I've no time for Dawkins. He insists that science disproves the possibility of God, which is nonsense, and a view hotly contested within the scientific world. I think he just hates the thought of any higher authority than scientific orthodoxy. He's an atheist fundamentalist and like the Taliban he would ban books in schools.

Hitchens is another matter. His writings are genuinely interesting. And he was a humanitarian, not an intellectual snob like Dawkins. He seemed to me to loathe not so much God or the concept of God, but what he saw as the tyrrany and contradictions of religion. A view I share. Sometimes I wonder whether he may have believed in God, but just didn't like him.

 

Heard a wise man once say there is no such thing as an Atheist. We are all believers. We were made that way. Whatever you think of most - that is your god. You either believe in the truth or a lie. The choice is yours. It's called free will.

 

Pascal's wager? Except it doesn't work. You can't have strategic or speculative faith. It is either genuine or it is not faith at all. I imagine God would take a dim view of those trying to gain entry to paradise with a forged pass.

[henry d]

 

I've no time for Dawkins. Me neither

 

 

Pascal's wager? Except it doesn't work. You can't have strategic or speculative faith. It is either genuine or it is not faith at all. I imagine God would take a dim view of those trying to gain entry to paradise with a forged pass.

 

Can`t be done, even Pascal knew that, James 2:14-26.

[keg]

 

I was wondering the exact same thing myself.

 

The original poster told us they had been to Church and it was a pleasant experience, they suggested they may go again. When I read this I thought to myself 'great, if your happy, Im happy' - its good to hear nice things, regardless of what they are about. Just as I would be happy to see a report of a member having a 250 bird day.

 

As far as I can see there are no Christians trying to ram any beliefs down anyone's throats here, a good number of people have said things like 'good for you' or ' I believe without going to Church' etc. Then along come the atheists ready to take on anyone who remotely appears to be a believer with the same old stuff about Darwin and the suffering millions.

 

Is there really any need? if you dont like the original posters content then move on to the next thread, why the need to put the subject down?

 

 

 

Nicely put.

Well said yourself. Live and let live. I get enough grief of my mother as I married a non-Catholic.

[keg]

For me, region was invented by men to direct and guide men,to explain the questions,e.g why have the crops failed? etc,then these priest became egos and controlling,YOU HAVE MADE THE GODS UNHAPPY! And they enjoyed the power God gave them over their flock.

Zelots started imposing their views on others and killed anyone who disagreed with them

They have used religion as a tool for good,but also mainly as a tool for power,suppression and control.to aquire land and money.

Would a loving God allow all the slaughter done by man in his name to continue?

People are generally vernurable and seek answers to the reason of their existance,they want to believe they are important in the grand scale of things and they are afraid of death and becoming nothing,so the afterlife is appealing.

I am shocked that people even fall for God,everything else,Dragons,elves,unicorns flying pigs have all been forgotten,but mans disire to be of value blinds them to the obvious.

I have wanted to believe- who wouldn't but many many yaers ago I realised it just doesn't stack up.

on a personal note i spent 2 .5 years in a childrens cancer ward watching my son die.

It was in London and was mulitcutural.Every possible region was there,and the exptreamley devout ones too,there were Muslims,in the full Burka kit,Orthadox Jews,Chrisitians,Hindus ,all of them facing the same outcome and they believed thier God would save their Kids.

The worse people to deal with were the Muslims and Jews,they don't consider anybody except themselve as worthy,They were selfish,inconsiderate and behaved very inconsiderably to everyone as they did their thing regardless of the negative impact on others around them.

I felt sorry for them as when their kids died,and a lot of them died horrably they were stunned as they couldn't believe God would let their kids die.It was only then that they might achknowelege you were even in the ward.

personally i'm happy that there is no god,I would hate to think that this being,who apparently has a plan and an interest in everyone would permit this Human Being he created to behave the way it does at times,

Agree with you Retromic and I can't even begin to understand what you are going through with losing your son but you have highlighted the one problem that religion cannot solve.

 

It's man's interpretation of religion that causes the issues. They use religion to subjugate others as many have pointed out on here but that is not God ( whichever God you worship() it's certain peoples views. It's wrong but it will not change.

[henry d]

Strange how people see god as a being who should interfere with everything they do. Plague, pestilence and war, why does god allow this? Why indeed, if god were to intervene in all that, why doesn`t he stop kids from falling over and skinning their knees? Why doesn`t god stop you from drinking too much and killing yourself from cancer/cirrhosis?

 

I don`t believe in that god, that god doesn`t love and want a relationship, that kind of relationship is smothering, you were given free will, a free gift, it is up to you how you use it.

[pavman]

my take on all religion is its an invention to keep order and control over the masses pre law and order and born from the desire and need of some to understand the big picture. I believe there is something out there but more in an ET way than a higher being. Sorry to say but once your dead that's it fellas so make sure you party now because there is no utopia in after life and all them bad folk and good will end up in the ground together no matter what, and that's a fact

 

PS most if not all wars are related to religion explain that one away...

[Pole Star]

Everyone should read books on this subject by Richard Dawkins and Christopher hitchens. In my opinion they blow religion out of the water.

 

If you bought that self centered ignoramuses book then you played right into his bank balance ! mug ! because like you & I he won't know the answer till we are all pushing up the bloody daisy's . sorry too say he got one over on you .

[Pole Star]

my take on all religion is its an invention to keep order and control over the masses pre law and order and born from the desire and need of some to understand the big picture. I believe there is something out there but more in an ET way than a higher being. Sorry to say but once your dead that's it fellas so make sure you party now because there is no utopia in after life and all them bad folk and good will end up in the ground together no matter what, and that's a fact

 

PS most if not all wars are related to religion explain that one away...

 

Another Know all expert who has been there & come back too tells us all there is nothing there !

[Pole Star]

The op posted he went to church & felt better for it , so why so many bitter atheists pouring scorn on him let the man be ! .

[poppythedog]

 

If you bought that self centered ignoramuses book then you played right into his bank balance ! mug ! because like you & I he won't know the answer till we are all pushing up the bloody daisy's . sorry too say he got one over on you .

You're calling someone a mug for buying a book & believing the contents................................err ok

[Dead-Eyed Duck]

The op posted he went to church & felt better for it , so why so many bitter atheists pouring scorn on him let the man be ! .

Because they are just as bad as the 10% of extreme religious nutters who shriek "I have the answer and you had better believe in me".

 

Live and let live, and let people have their own beliefs as long as they don't want to force them on you. I believe it's called democracy or something like that....

 

Millions of people have died defending the right for you to believe in what you want to, as long as.....

[Pole Star]

You're calling someone a mug for buying a book & believing the contents................................err ok

 

Another post from an expert who knows what is on the other side ! I don't know but I wont knock the op like some do here just to make them selves feel good .

 

Because they are just as bad as the 10% of extreme religious nutters who shriek "I have the answer and you had better believe in me".

 

Live and let live, and let people have their own beliefs as long as they don't want to force them on you. I believe it's called democracy or something like that....

 

Millions of people have died defending the right for you to believe in what you want to, as long as.....

 

Correct Dead eyed Duck , so let the op be thats what I am saying .

Edited July 16, 2013 by Pole Star

[retromlc]

no one is pouring scorn on him,most say they don't have a problem,if you post something like this in a forum,then it becomes an open conversation,which leads off on all directions,it's a view point from all comers,if you'd rather not hear views or open a debate then don't post it.Aanyway it won't be long before a mod comes on and decides it's time to lock this topic,I bet they love the power of doing that, making a decision without a reason,except that they decide it's enough,mmm who does that remind me of???

[Pole Star]

no one is pouring scorn on him,most say they don't have a problem,if you post something like this in a forum,then it becomes an open conversation,which leads off on all directions,it's a view point from all comers,if you'd rather not hear views or open a debate then don't post it.Aanyway it won't be long before a mod comes on and decides it's time to lock this topic,I bet they love the power of doing that, making a decision without a reason,except that they decide it's enough,mmm who does that remind me of???

 

You tell me ? This has been done to death before & no one knows the answer not me not you or any one else on here , all I am saying if you have nothing good to say about the OP going to church & feeling better for it then say nothing at at all , he is not saying a word against non believers .

Edited July 16, 2013 by Pole Star

[Reeceknight]

Whatever floats your boat.....personally my church is the outdoors, I feel closer to "god" when im shooting, climbing, kayaking etc.

Agreed, when I'm up snowdonia I sit and chill for abit and take it all in, feel peaceful and calm, done it the other day, sat in a barly field watching pigeon with my friend and we both layed down and just layed there for ages lol outdoors makes me feel different. Can't explain it really.

[retromlc]

it's a free country Pole Star, I say what I want,and all your're doing is telling us to shut up and leave the OP alone when we are not commenting on him,just religion,it's well known faults and as to Gods existance,why are you commenting at all?Has he asked you to defend religion on his behalf???Why have you decided to take the high ground?

Edited July 16, 2013 by retromlc

[Reeceknight]

iv now read this whole thing and am so shocked at people's response to this. shamefully. It's not effecting any of us so why take it so personal?