kennett Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 I shoot pigeons, magpies and rats on the chicken food all the time with my .22 from the bedroom window. No one ever notices and the loudest part of it all is the hit! If its safe and you have an open ticket crack on mate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deputy dog Posted July 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 I can see that there are mixed reviews on shooting a .22LR in a back garden even though some people are telling me its perfectly legal to so. And as not to anger any critics on this forum who as suggested using other methods, I have decided not to go ahead with the planned shooting of corvids in my fathers back garden with the rimfire. The last thing I need is a slating on here from individuals who think what I was going to do with said rimfire was wrong, when other methods could be taken for control measures. Thanks for all your feed back I appreciate and respect all comments, though may not agree with one or two. DD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pole Star Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Too risky in my opinion if you have people living next to you it will only take some thing to go wrong once & you might just finish up in court . If you do insist try the short CB caps I know they work because when I lived in Australia a mate of mine use to bump off feral cats in his garden at night in the middle of Melbourne & that was not with a rifle that was with a 22 revolver !. Note different law there ! . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadioles Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 With an open licence and the permission of the land owner it is up to you to decide if it is safe to shoot. Provided that the bullet does not leave the boundary (and I would add as a matter of common sense that dead or wounded animals do not leave the boundary either) then you have not committed an offence. Obviously be discreet. The earlier comment about the "General Licence" (nothing to do with your FAC) is the one that could trip you up if you cannot demonstrate that you have taken other reasonable measures to protect your crops. Overview of licence: This licence permits landowners, occupiers and other authorised persons to carry out a range of otherwise prohibited activities against the species of wild birds listed on the licence. This licence may only be relied upon where the activities are carried out for the purposes specified, and users must comply with licence terms and conditions. These conditions include the requirement that the user must be satisfied that legal (including non-lethal) methods of resolving the problem are ineffective or impracticable. THE PURPOSE(S) FOR WHICH THIS LICENCE APPLIES 1. Subject to paragraph 2 and the licence conditions, this licence is granted to: (i) Prevent serious damage to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, fisheries or inland waters, and (ii) Prevent the spread of disease. etc...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deputy dog Posted July 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 (edited) With an open licence and the permission of the land owner it is up to you to decide if it is safe to shoot. Provided that the bullet does not leave the boundary (and I would add as a matter of common sense that dead or wounded animals do not leave the boundary either) then you have not committed an offence. Obviously be discreet. The earlier comment about the "General Licence" (nothing to do with your FAC) is the one that could trip you up if you cannot demonstrate that you have taken other reasonable measures to protect your crops. Overview of licence: This licence permits landowners, occupiers and other authorised persons to carry out a range of otherwise prohibited activities against the species of wild birds listed on the licence. This licence may only be relied upon where the activities are carried out for the purposes specified, and users must comply with licence terms and conditions. These conditions include the requirement that the user must be satisfied that legal (including non-lethal) methods of resolving the problem are ineffective or impracticable. THE PURPOSE(S) FOR WHICH THIS LICENCE APPLIES 1. Subject to paragraph 2 and the licence conditions, this licence is granted to: (i) Prevent serious damage to livestock, foodstuffs for livestock, crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber, fisheries or inland waters, and (ii) Prevent the spread of disease. etc...... I didn't go through with the shooting exercise after mate. Although I made sure every thing was as safe as it possibly could be, I thought what the point of risking it. Not that I was in any way unsure of my ability with safe gun use shooting wise. But thought I would give other methods a go first or just wait till I acquire my new air rifle. Though 2 neighbours did ask this morning, if I had managed to bag a few of the black corvid menace and seemed a little disappointed when I said I never shot after all. But sort of understood why I opted out when I told them. So I can't wait to get my new air rifle and then those winged pests will have a good seeing too. DD Edited July 20, 2013 by deputy dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 The OP has wisely decided against using a .22 LR in the circumstances but it seems quite a few people think it would have been OK to do so, I remain unconvinced. Essentially you're saying that a man can apply for and rightly be refused a .22 FAC licence to shoot in the place described, yet five minutes later his mate could turn up with an Open Certificate and blast away albeit discreetly?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bostonmick Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 I would say you have possibly 80% chance of losing your ticket by doing this you may think those around you are all ok but there is always someone out there ready to report,air rifles are cheap and more suited to this use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 20, 2013 Report Share Posted July 20, 2013 The OP has wisely decided against using a .22 LR in the circumstances but it seems quite a few people think it would have been OK to do so, I remain unconvinced. Essentially you're saying that a man can apply for and rightly be refused a .22 FAC licence to shoot in the place described, yet five minutes later his mate could turn up with an Open Certificate and blast away albeit discreetly?! You posed this exact question earlier and I answered you in post 18. I quote below ACPO view on the matter.........................note the last sentance. 8. URBAN FOXES 8.1 Jim Jones referred to a query he had received from an experienced shooter asking if he can cull foxes in a highly residential volutile part of the force. This was raised at the Practioners meeting who will assemble guidance for people who are going to undertake this activity and publish it. The shooter hasn’t been asked by a public body to undertake this cull but by an invidual. The message needs to go out to operational police officers that this is legal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobba Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 The powers that be have stated that, for open ticket holders, the use of .22lr's in back gardens in urban environments for fox control is perfectly legal and acceptable. Their only suggestion is to advise the local police when doing so in case a resident sees or hears a gunshot. One can therefore assume that the same policy applies to all vermin. I am not a closet grammarian but the words Assume and Presume both mean to believe something before it happens, but when you Assume you're not really sure. I would like to be sure before I pulled the trigger because if you are wrong then having pulled it is too late to find that out. If CharlieT could be kind enough please to identify "the powers that be" for you, you could then check with them to Ensure you're ok to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 21, 2013 Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 If CharlieT could be kind enough please to identify "the powers that be" for you, you could then check with them to Ensure you're ok to do it. I did that in the previous post (post33) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deputy dog Posted July 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) Lads i never went through with the shoot in my fathers back garden after wards. I will be sourcing the relevant infomation though as to whether i would be legal to shoot in such an area for the reason of pest, vermin control for chickens. Though i will most probabley never use the .22LR now for just thinning out winged pests like Jackdaws or Magpies as i will be using a air rifle for that job. But i would like to have the knowledge behind me for any future decisions on using the .22LR for fox control if an when such an occasion should arise and charlie has been trying to raid the chicken coup in my father back garden. Obvioulsy i wont be wanting an air rifle for that type of pest control. Thanks for all the replies lads, as said before i respect all the comments one this post. DD Edited July 21, 2013 by deputy dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobba Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 I did that in the previous post (post33) As the matter has been resolved it's somewhat academic but what I was seeking was not properly explained by me and my question imprecise. By way of explanation, certainly the ACPO is identified and an extract from a document given. However, there are no document or file references or dates from which the quote was taken to allow others to refer it to their area police force. Moreover it states that the message is to go to operational police officers that this is legal but did it? If not, then there is still the risk that forces would act in the ignorance of the legality. Best wishes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 The OP has wisely decided against using a .22 LR in the circumstances but it seems quite a few people think it would have been OK to do so, I remain unconvinced. Essentially you're saying that a man can apply for and rightly be refused a .22 FAC licence to shoot in the place described, yet five minutes later his mate could turn up with an Open Certificate and blast away albeit discreetly?! Ok what law are you breaking? The user with an open certificate decides where to use the gun in question, none of us can say if it is safe from behind a keyboard but to an extent that is irrelevant in the legal side. Legally if you have permission you can use your fac guns anywhere, however the onus is on you to do so safely. An unsafe shot can come back to haunt you whether on a 1000 acre estate or a back garden. in this case we can only say the legal side which is you can, the practical side is another matter. If there is nothing beyond the garden and you are going to shoot corvids from upstairs at 5am that is one thing, doing so middle of the day is another matter there is a lot of common sense to apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonno Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 I have used CCI Quiet-22 in the US and they were very accurate to 20 yards - 45ft-lbs, segmenting and a heavier bullet than the CB Longs. (I haven't seen them in the UK but I'm sure someone on PW will know if they are available here). A springer air rifle would be much louder! If you use a moderator (not allowed where I was in the US) none of the neighbours would even know what you were doing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 Ok what law are you breaking? The user with an open certificate decides where to use the gun in question, none of us can say if it is safe from behind a keyboard but to an extent that is irrelevant in the legal side. Legally if you have permission you can use your fac guns anywhere, however the onus is on you to do so safely. An unsafe shot can come back to haunt you whether on a 1000 acre estate or a back garden. in this case we can only say the legal side which is you can, the practical side is another matter. If there is nothing beyond the garden and you are going to shoot corvids from upstairs at 5am that is one thing, doing so middle of the day is another matter there is a lot of common sense to apply. There is no specific law, but you are breaking the unwritten code of conduct entrusted to you when you were granted your Open status. Don't know about your second point. I reckon me and a few thousand rimfire users can say it would be folly using a .22 LR in those circumstance even from the comfort of the armchair. I often use an air gun (incl FAC) in places where the risk of ricochets or the mere close proximity to people and property makes it the prudent choice. You can theorise as much as you like about shooting from an upstairs window or using low power rounds, the reality is a powder/bullet rifle in a garden is a no no, it is simply too powerful and the risk of ricochet too great. Why else do the police bother judging whether a ground is suitable for .22 LR or not? If it would not pass as suitable (and this example WILL NOT), then it is not suitable regardless of your certificate conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 If you can get those CB caps you could use them, for extra safety. So far as i am aware it sounds legal, make sure you are within the general license though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 There is no specific law, but you are breaking the unwritten code of conduct entrusted to you when you were granted your Open status. Don't know about your second point. I reckon me and a few thousand rimfire users can say it would be folly using a .22 LR in those circumstance even from the comfort of the armchair. I often use an air gun (incl FAC) in places where the risk of ricochets or the mere close proximity to people and property makes it the prudent choice. You can theorise as much as you like about shooting from an upstairs window or using low power rounds, the reality is a powder/bullet rifle in a garden is a no no, it is simply too powerful and the risk of ricochet too great. Why else do the police bother judging whether a ground is suitable for .22 LR or not? If it would not pass as suitable (and this example WILL NOT), then it is not suitable regardless of your certificate conditions. thousands of us will carry on doing as we have, there is no unwritten code that you mention there is only taking shots you as an open certificate holder are happy with. There are also back gardens and there are back gardens, my mums I've used the .243 out of the window but there is no issue with neighbours. My garden is 100 by 50 and I've used the HMR in it and I have neighbours to each side but not importantly at the rear, so though I'm happy the bullet wouldn't leave the boundary if it did then there is no issue. There is so much more to this that none of us know, he could have a mountain at the end of the garden for all we know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 The OP has wisely decided against using a .22 LR in the circumstances but it seems quite a few people think it would have been OK to do so, I remain unconvinced. Essentially you're saying that a man can apply for and rightly be refused a .22 FAC licence to shoot in the place described, yet five minutes later his mate could turn up with an Open Certificate and blast away albeit discreetly?! Being granted an FAC based on shooting in your garden being your good reason is not the same as shooting in a garden once you already have one. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 Being granted an FAC based on shooting in your garden being your good reason is not the same as shooting in a garden once you already have one. J. What is wrong before doesn't become right after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 its not wrong though if its safe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 its not wrong though if its safe Highly debatable whether it is truly safe, or at lest safe enough. I know we can't ever be 100% safe but not taking the chance in situations such as these is the right thing to do. At the end of the day an air gun would be far more sensible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 What is wrong before doesn't become right after. I don't wish to perpetuate this but why is using a moderated .22lr in an urban environment wrong. As others have said, it is perfectly legal. No matter where one is shooting, be it a back garden or a 60 acre field, the shooter undertakes a risk assessment and then, having weighed up the situation, makes his decision to shoot or not. If he decides it is safe he may legally take the shot, no iff's, buts or maybe's. We cannot say if the garden the OP is talking about is safe or not, we haven't seen it. All we can do is discuss what is legal and what is not. Right or wrong does not come into it, legal or not does. As an example, my eldest daughter lives in London and is plagued with foxes. Earlier this year when visiting I took a rifle with me to reduce the numbers. Out of courtesy I informed the neighbors and the local police station, who thanked me for my call and issued a log number. I shot safely from an upstairs window and killed 3 the first evening and two the second. Nothing illegal or wrong in my actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njc110381 Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that there is a pattern to the replies here. Most of the shooters for it have over time on here given me at least a feeling that they know what they're doing. Al4x and CharlieT to name a couple of recent posters. There are others who are not so sure, but what level of experience do you have? A garden is no more dangerous to shoot than an open field. If anything those little extra precautions that you would take in that situation make the shot safer. The danger arises when you assume that the big open field that you're shooting doesn't have a walker behind the far hedge etc... I know from direct conversation with my FEO's that there have been several people in the area granted .22lr's for fox control just in their own gardens. The simple creation of a basic backstop and a bait area allows a shot to be taken almost anywhere. There are safe shots and unsafe shots, but the area in question bares little relation to the risk. I would rather take a shot at a fox standing in front of a sack of sand in the middle of town than at a rabbit in a field in the middle of nowhere. With the sack of sand I can be as near 100% certain as possible that the bullet is going to stop there. In the field there's always that 1% chance of a ricochet and then the 0.01% chance of that ricochet meeting a rambler in the next field. The chances are slim enough to allow the shot, but it's not 100% risk free wherever it's taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
searley Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 I have a bit of land, that is in a similar situation as the OP's. not a terrace of houses, but a row of bungalows It has about 0.75a of land so not much!!!!! The FEO HAS approved the land for the shooting of fox with a 22lr, as long as the shot are taken towards a specific direction (10ft embankment). The FEO asked the neighbours if any of them had an issue, and none did, as they would rather see the chickens that are on the land On the other hand i have a 5a bit of land that i have not even bothered asking him to inspect, as its totally flat, and i doubt he would consider it safe So as far as i see it, some small bits of land are ok, others are not, careful consideration by the shooter is needed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 And the feo will usually have zero shooting experience, that's the funny bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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