Rimfireboy Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 Well I'm confused with this? Looking at my guerini its stamped KG1.490 CAM 76.Also one barrel is stamped 18.4 and the other 18.5. I know CAM 76 is the chamber length but what are the other stamps meaning? Can I shoot HP steel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedward Posted September 19, 2013 Report Share Posted September 19, 2013 Hi rfb, you're confused - welcome to my world ! but check out my post no 58. I believe that, KG1.490 is the weight of the barrels. CAM 76 is the chamber length (3 inch in old money) 18.4, and 18.5 will be the bore diameters in mm The proof mark you're looking for on an Italian gun is the symbol "PSF" with either one, or two stars above it. Two stars designate the magnum proof introduced in 1962 and is 1200 bar (approx to Kg/cm2) Right that's the easy bit - but it's down to the individuals interpretation of the very confusing advice as to whether or not the gun is safe to use with standard or high performance steel cartridges. Your shout, cheers, Tedward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted September 19, 2013 Report Share Posted September 19, 2013 Hi rfb, you're confused - welcome to my world ! but check out my post no 58. I believe that, KG1.490 is the weight of the barrels. CAM 76 is the chamber length (3 inch in old money) 18.4, and 18.5 will be the bore diameters in mm The proof mark you're looking for on an Italian gun is the symbol "PSF" with either one, or two stars above it. Two stars designate the magnum proof introduced in 1962 and is 1200 bar (approx to Kg/cm2) Right that's the easy bit - but it's down to the individuals interpretation of the very confusing advice as to whether or not the gun is safe to use with standard or high performance steel cartridges. Your shout, cheers, Tedward. Just as you think that you've got the hang of it, some *****r comes along with Mo/Ns and MPa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 According to CIP an HP steel/steel-like cartridge is to be fired only through a gun that has passed steel shot proof (which uses three cartridges containing large steel pellets and generating some 30% greater service pressure per barrel) and the gun then marked Steel Shot and with Fleur-de-Lys. A gun not so marked would be deemed not to have passed steel shot proof and so not suitable/safe to fire HP steel/steel-like cartridges. That is not to say that such a gun would necessarily be damaged but CIP would maintain that the risk of its being so is increased. David This post has confused me. For 5 seasons I have been using up steel through a Browning b525 and have believed it to be perfectly safe to do so as it has a fleur De Lys stamped on the barrels. However, It does not have the words. Steel Shot stamped on them. Do they really need both? Is my gun unsuitable as it only has the symbol? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mat Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) This post has confused me. For 5 seasons I have been using up steel through a Browning b525 and have believed it to be perfectly safe to do so as it has a fleur De Lys stamped on the barrels. However, It does not have the words. Steel Shot stamped on them. Do they really need both? Is my gun unsuitable as it only has the symbol? Your gun is totally fine to use, there are guns which are not stamped with fleur de lys or steel shot, but have been proofed to the high pressure ( 1320 bar or above ), which makes them fine for hp steel. It is only a higher pressure that they are proofed to. I had told David that it can be misleading and needs changing quite a while ago but have not seen as change yet! Edited September 22, 2013 by Big Mat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Thanks Big Mat. I feel a lot happier! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 If in doubt take Motty's advice and buy a modern 3 1/2" gun. In fact I sort of wished everyone did this and reduced the prices of those old heavy magnum wildfowling s/s guns to a pittance (reasons being pretty obvious). Meanwhile as London and Birmingham proof are even failing to agree among themselves on certain procedures I cannot see any international simplified steel proof stds being agreed for guns and shells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 Meanwhile as London and Birmingham proof are even failing to agree among themselves on certain procedures I cannot see any international simplified steel proof stds being agreed for guns and shells. Precisely. And if you also toss CIP and SAAMI into the same pot then you have good reason for the legislators not to add steel to the list of acceptable NTS. Also, as all of the others fail on the economic grounds, lead should be retained - certainly until the steel situation is clarified on the grounds of health and safety - if not indefinitely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IEH Posted September 22, 2013 Report Share Posted September 22, 2013 (edited) Your gun is totally fine to use, there are guns which are not stamped with fleur de lys or steel shot, but have been proofed to the high pressure ( 1320 bar or above ), which makes them fine for hp steel. It is only a higher pressure that they are proofed to. I had told David that it can be misleading and needs changing quite a while ago but have not seen as change yet! It is a minefield. I shoot a Benelli Supernova which is not stamped with the fleur de lys ( I think this may be something to do with the proof houses charging policies) but the manufacturer's manual confirms that 'All Benelli shotguns are subjected to a 1370 bar burst test at the Italian National Proof House in Gardone Valtrompia (Brescia)', and are therefore safe with HP steel. Ian Edited September 22, 2013 by IEH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted September 30, 2013 Report Share Posted September 30, 2013 i think a common sense approach should be applied to all situations. first of all, the cip have speed limitations with standard and HP steel SAAMI do not. cip have shotsize limitations too. i do not consider this an issue as i have no interest in selling or having the benefits of cip rated shells. i`m a homeloader i`m exempt. only pressure should be the main concern, when homeloadijng 99% of steel load recipes should be below the 11,500psi set by saami or 10,770psi (740bar) set by cip. so pressure really isnt the issue there. if you are sure just use normal steel shells. if you still have doubts, just use bismuth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bantam boy Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 Hi guys, I am sure this has been covered sooooo many times! But I am taking an old English side by side on a pheasant shoot Saturday,just had a text from the shoot captain, to bring steel shot,my question is..........can I put steel up the old girl? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad63 Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 Taken from the opening post "Standard Steel cartridges can be fired through any gun proved to the standard level (ie most “Nitro” proved guns, proved to at least 930 bar) and through any choke." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad63 Posted October 31, 2013 Report Share Posted October 31, 2013 Taken from a later post "Standard is 65-70mm , max pressure 740 bar, max velocity 1395 fps" I think I'm right in saying this should also state that shot size should not exceed 3.2mm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 To be completely safe get a box of Eley Grand Prix bismuth 5 or 4's in either the 1 1/16oz Game or 1 1/8oz HV load. Looking at approx. £25 for box of 25. Hi guys,I am sure this has been covered sooooo many times! But I am taking an old English side by side on a pheasant shoot Saturday,just had a text from the shoot captain, to bring steel shot,my question is..........can I put steel up the old girl? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren m Posted November 25, 2013 Report Share Posted November 25, 2013 so just clarify for me please for example - our clay ground as had to go over to steel , a lot of people are panicing if you have an older but solid ( eg - 15year old lanber sporter i use ) 12g o/u thats proofed up to 1200 or 1370 bar but does not have the fleur de leyes stamp , will these guns be ok shooting say 28gram of 7.5 steel thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 26, 2013 Report Share Posted November 26, 2013 Yes, but: Be prepared to suffer a ring bulge in the choke area the chances of which can be reduced if you can get a choke selection as open as possible consistent with your requirements. There's a bucket full of pellets in the load you mention so that should be possible. Try and keep away from the maximum momentum figure for non steel proofed guns as you don't need that much poke and poke usually equals pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfowler12 Posted November 26, 2013 Report Share Posted November 26, 2013 so just clarify for me please for example - our clay ground as had to go over to steel , a lot of people are panicing if you have an older but solid ( eg - 15year old lanber sporter i use ) 12g o/u thats proofed up to 1200 or 1370 bar but does not have the fleur de leyes stamp , will these guns be ok shooting say 28gram of 7.5 steel thanks You can safely shoot Gamebore Super Steel 21-28g 7.5's through ANY choke, providing your gun is nitro proofed and has at least 70mm chambers... http://www.gamebore.com/products/47/12g-super-steel-competition In your case, you will be fine. However be aware that for larger steel shot sizes (4 and above) a maximum of 1/2 choke applies, although some bodies recommend no more that 1/4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 26, 2013 Report Share Posted November 26, 2013 (edited) You can safely shoot Gamebore Super Steel 21-28g 7.5's through ANY choke, providing your gun is nitro proofed and has at least 70mm chambers... http://www.gamebore.com/products/47/12g-super-steel-competition In your case, you will be fine. However be aware that for larger steel shot sizes (4 and above) a maximum of 1/2 choke applies, although some bodies recommend no more that 1/4. Yep, can't fault that answer. But it doesn't mean one can become complacent though. No matter what distance the velocity figure of 1300 ft/sec for the specified cartridge was measured at, all will be well even though Gamebore told me this morning that they didn't actually know what the distance was when I asked. A like load from another manufacturer runs 0.06 short of the magic 12. Additionally, even when I expressed surprise and gave them a chance to double check, this maker was absolutely adamant that two loads designed for the type of gun described above ran figures of 13.6 for one and 13.9 for the.other. It will be realised that that immediately puts these into the formal steel proof category. Edited November 27, 2013 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Mat Posted November 26, 2013 Report Share Posted November 26, 2013 (edited) Yes, but: Be prepared to suffer a ring bulge in the choke area the chances of which can be reduced if you can get a choke selection as open as possible consistent with your requirements. There's a bucket full of pellets in the load you mention so that should be possible. Try and keep away from the maximum momentum figure for non steel proofed guns as you don't need that much poke and poke usually equals pressure. You are just scare mongering now. Shooting steel does not automatically mean you are going to get a ring bulge. Edited November 26, 2013 by Big Mat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted November 26, 2013 Report Share Posted November 26, 2013 You are just scare mongering now. Shooting steel does not automatically mean you are going to get a ring bulge. Did I say that you definitely would or did I use words like be prepared and chances. No you're quite right; it is not automatic but remains a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren m Posted November 27, 2013 Report Share Posted November 27, 2013 the club is using gamebore super steel 24gr and 28gr , so should be ok then cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 just use open chokes, thats cyl /skeet / 1/4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holloway Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Unless i missed it in this thread can anyone tell me what the old 3 1/2 ton per sqare inch is equivalent to in modern bar pressure. 1370 perhaps ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 (edited) 31/2 tons was a service pressure and the equivalent today is 1050 bar I believe. Edit: change of answer, misread the question. Edited December 21, 2013 by wymberley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holloway Posted December 22, 2013 Report Share Posted December 22, 2013 thankou wymberly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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