Sprackles Posted September 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 You are spot on there the problem is all down to inappropriate over fishing years ago we had lots of little fishing boats each one making a good living for all of the people who worked on them but then people got greedy and made bigger boats larger nets sonar to find the sholes and they scooped up everything and now all we here is them winning that there are no fish so they want to blame the seals the wales everything but themselves. Years ago we had a massive deep water fleet and a smaller inshore fleet. The demise of the deep water fleet meant that many downsized to the North Sea. Unfortunately having been kicked out of Iceland, the UK fishermen received a double whammy as at that very same time as we were looking to exploit our vast resources, the Government of the day joined the then EEC and promptly gave away our stocks as a common resource and the rest is history as they say. I get so tired of hearing this overfishing and greed story from people who really have no real idea of what is/was involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprackles Posted September 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 If seals are causing a particular problem in particular areas I can't see a problem really. My routes should of been well rooted in fishing as my grandad was a skipper of a trawler out of Lowestoft. But my father ended up in the midlands training to be an engineer at 15. Karpman Edit: meant to say were tuna not that infrequent on our shores some time ago before herring stocks took some hammer? This ain't a global warming thing is it? More to do with rise in food stuffs for the tuna. Spot on there...Tuna used to follow the Herring shoals and there have been several reports of them being caught in the North Sea as a by Catch. This one however was the result of careful research and deliberate targeting as it followed Mackerel shoals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WelshAndy Posted September 26, 2013 Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 Interesting topic - thought if share this from this morning. I watched it for about 20 minutes swimming around not fazed by me at all. http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd228/fletch_028/8A839C55-9C71-40A8-996A-91C765739851-3457-00000183B0CE42E8_zpscd97fd38.mp4 http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd228/fletch_028/3318BDAF-7F40-4B1B-9F21-4BA52692645B-3457-000001845C220F4E_zps31e1ff1d.mp4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrewluke Posted September 26, 2013 Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 Seals are in their natural environment doing what they are supposed to do. I do not see what the fuss is all about. Instead of threatening the marine biodiversity we will be better off improving our fishing technology and conduct... 100% agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karpman Posted September 26, 2013 Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 100% agree Yeah bet a lot of people until a buzzard clears out there pens. Or the pigeons clear there fields. Etc. etc. easy to take that view when it's not your lively hood there affecting. Karpman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
four-wheel-drive Posted September 26, 2013 Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 Years ago we had a massive deep water fleet and a smaller inshore fleet. The demise of the deep water fleet meant that many downsized to the North Sea. Unfortunately having been kicked out of Iceland, the UK fishermen received a double whammy as at that very same time as we were looking to exploit our vast resources, the Government of the day joined the then EEC and promptly gave away our stocks as a common resource and the rest is history as they say. I get so tired of hearing this overfishing and greed story from people who really have no real idea of what is/was involved. Ok but that dose not explaine why the modern fishing methords are killing everything smashing up the reefs where the fish and shell fish live all for a quick buck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted September 26, 2013 Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 Imagine that seals eating fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprackles Posted September 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 Ok but that dose not explaine why the modern fishing methords are killing everything smashing up the reefs where the fish and shell fish live all for a quick buck. Modern fishing methods ?? Beam trawls have been around for hundreds of years although I must concede the power of the vessels is different. Reefs are hostile environments for nets and no fisherman in his right mind is going to drag thousands of pounds worth of gear over ground he knows will likely destroy it. The principle applies to all forms of fishing, obstructions damage nets and coming fast for a beam trawler can capsize it, indeed many fishermen have been drowned in such circumstances. Nobody makes a fast buck in fishing any more...there are limitations on the number of days you can go to sea, limits on how much you can catch and just for the anglers on here, did you know that angling boats account for more Cod than the under 10m fleet can legally catch, the quotas for that size of vessel are so low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepasty Posted September 26, 2013 Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 If Seal population has grown due to our impact on say providing artificial food resource then its for us to control them and reset the balance. If this is the natural Seal population doing its thing then we need to leave them do their thing and for us to work around it. I have a friend that works a netting boat, he's always complaining about seals and says more often than not its just a few rogue seals that have learnt to eat out of the nets rather than the entire seal population attacking nets on mass and thus a wide area cull would do nothing but damage the seal population, its the rogues that need to be dealt with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper3 Posted September 26, 2013 Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 I have known lads down here, give up the normal job to do bass fishing during the summer months..because they can earn a good wage from it, wether thats right or wrong is not for me to say... they want more money, when i posted about greed, i guess i was saying, we all live a better life style now, than years ago, and we still want better and more... in turn, something will be lost, and the only thing we can blame is us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
station Posted September 26, 2013 Report Share Posted September 26, 2013 Imagine that seals eating fish. Maybe the fishing boats should just carry plenty of footballs so they can throw them to the seals to play with ! That would keep them off the fish - surely !!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 not strickly true Sparkles, i have lived near fishing ports for most of my life, here in exmouth we have small trawlers come in , brixham is just down the road, Beer is just up the road i am also a very keen sea angler, I have seen the reefs off of Budleigh totally trashed with scallop dredging, the reef use to be full of fish, we even had a tope run...... now its a underwater wasteland , with very few fish. you didn't read my post correctly, i didn't say they don't need controlling, i said we all have to answer for our own greed.... as you say..the deep water fish have declined...thats was caused by bigger better nets, boats and technology ..and no control over other countries,, we all went out further... and yes, i have also heard fish discards are being sent to landfill..that is totally bonkers...but it comes down to greed..if they give them away...who will want the fish for sale. its not a point of being green and hugging trees..its a point of realising the way we all live can't go on... the fish will be gone one day.. just today on our local news..Bass stocks are down 1/3rd i have often heard on here...I went out last night and shot 130 rabbits... then , had another 78 last night...... then a few months down the line, we aint go no rabbits down our way... mixi wiped them out OK !!! i know many will be asked to remove all the rabbits..but my point is , once their gone, their gone ..then the shooting, ferreting becomes rubbish.. once all the fish have gone, the trawlermen will have no work at all, and the seals will die down in numbers , Exactly my point. Greed is what we need to address, and not try the easiest (and often less rational) way first... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrounder Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 I have a club. It may well be greed, this defines us partially as human, however, we must also accept that we are the dominant species currently living on Earth and as such must manage the resources in order to provide for our ever expanding population. If this means we have to cull certain species that compromise our ability to sustain ourselves then we either have to accept that or accept the demise of some people. Who will make that decision? In order to keep a couple of extra seals would you sacrifice a close family member Psyxologos to starvation, thats were this argument ultimately leads us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psyxologos Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 No it's not. It is not a choice between seals or us. It is a choice between responsible existence and quick profit on the expense of everything else around us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrounder Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 I beg to differ, sir. Forget money and we come down to the existence of one species of higher intellect than another (interestingly, intellect as defined by us) At the moment we have the luxury of believing we can have the best of both worlds, plenty of food and those that we allow to survive that also share that food source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprackles Posted September 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 No it's not. It is not a choice between seals or us. It is a choice between responsible existence and quick profit on the expense of everything else around us. The first picture I posted is not Quick profit. It was a days hard graft wasted because of seals. Had the catch all been saleable then there would have been a wage in it for him, less of course his running expenses, fuel, gear, dock fees etc etc which incidentally will still have to be paid. The days of a fast buck are over. Taking your view and adding the greens would amount to us stopping fishing altogether to achieve this utopian sea state. Responsible fishing is inshore fishing on a small scale, low environmental impact....just as the first picture showed had it been good fish. A wage from a small amount of fish as opposed to one supersized boat catching tonnes by the hour, that is green fishing but its also the type hit hardest by the seals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 There was an extensive Blue Fin Tuna sport fishery of the Yorkshire coast in the 20's. Whitby was the main port. http://www.yfaonline.com/film/tunny-action Spot on there...Tuna used to follow the Herring shoals and there have been several reports of them being caught in the North Sea as a by Catch. This one however was the result of careful research and deliberate targeting as it followed Mackerel shoals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper3 Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 Can i ask a question... the phrase Green has been mentioned a few times, what exactly is a Green... personally i wouldn't call myself a green, i drive a 4x4 i shoot pigeon, rabbit and other animals... and i catch and eat fish, yet at the same time, i look for a balance, now as sad as it is, for a man to loose a days wage, well ! its not really the end of his world, i got ripped off for £10k a few years ago, but didn't ask for builders to be culled , my question would be....if we do cull seals,to maintain healthy quota's , what should we do as a race not to take more than we should....our very own race is growing in numbers, so our demands will be greater.... do we really need to kill off everything that shares the things we eat . i have no problem with controlling numbers, but it has to be a two way thing and i know i will get shot down for this..... but as a angler..I hate gill nets.. I would love to see them gone..this is just my personal view, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scimitar Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 and i know i will get shot down for this..... but as a angler..I hate gill nets.. I would love to see them gone..this is just my personal view, As an angler I too hate gill nets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 Can i ask a question... the phrase Green has been mentioned a few times, what exactly is a Green... personally i wouldn't call myself a green, i drive a 4x4 i shoot pigeon, rabbit and other animals... and i catch and eat fish, yet at the same time, i look for a balance, now as sad as it is, for a man to loose a days wage, well ! its not really the end of his world, i got ripped off for £10k a few years ago, but didn't ask for builders to be culled , my question would be....if we do cull seals,to maintain healthy quota's , what should we do as a race not to take more than we should....our very own race is growing in numbers, so our demands will be greater.... do we really need to kill off everything that shares the things we eat . i have no problem with controlling numbers, but it has to be a two way thing and i know i will get shot down for this..... but as a angler..I hate gill nets.. I would love to see them gone..this is just my personal view, I empathise with this and the other posts by Jasper and I too would like to ask a question. Bass - NOT Sea - just Bass. The minimum retention size for these is 36cms - and judging by the size of some "Sea Bass" (seems to appeal to the knob-heads) that I've seen on the plates in local (east Devon) restaurants many fishermen/middlemen/restauranteurs are paying this scant attention - whereas the breeding maturity is not reached until they reach some 45 cms. There have been moves to increase the retention level to that latter length but it has been pointed out that this could have financial implications for the previously mentioned trades people. My question is, will not doing so eventually have a catastrophic effect on their profits, not only wiping these out but the species as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprackles Posted September 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 I empathise with this and the other posts by Jasper and I too would like to ask a question. Bass - NOT Sea - just Bass. The minimum retention size for these is 36cms - and judging by the size of some "Sea Bass" (seems to appeal to the knob-heads) that I've seen on the plates in local (east Devon) restaurants many fishermen/middlemen/restauranteurs are paying this scant attention - whereas the breeding maturity is not reached until they reach some 45 cms. There have been moves to increase the retention level to that latter length but it has been pointed out that this could have financial implications for the previously mentioned trades people. My question is, will not doing so eventually have a catastrophic effect on their profits, not only wiping these out but the species as well? The size limit only applies to wild caught fish and at the legal minimum landing size, they are too big for a single whole fish portion. The fish you see in supermarkets and on restaurant plates are farmed bass from the Mediterranean. Perhaps you may not realise but buyers now also have to registered to trade in Sea Fish and penalties for buying undersized,undeclared fish are huge. The regulations involved in the fish game are horrendous and the pitfalls many, the average man in the street has no idea whatsoever of the hurdles fishermen have to go through just so they can have a fish and chip supper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 Can i ask a question... the phrase Green has been mentioned a few times, what exactly is a Green... personally i wouldn't call myself a green, i drive a 4x4 i shoot pigeon, rabbit and other animals... and i catch and eat fish, yet at the same time, i look for a balance, now as sad as it is, for a man to loose a days wage, well ! its not really the end of his world, i got ripped off for £10k a few years ago, but didn't ask for builders to be culled , my question would be....if we do cull seals,to maintain healthy quota's , what should we do as a race not to take more than we should....our very own race is growing in numbers, so our demands will be greater.... do we really need to kill off everything that shares the things we eat . i have no problem with controlling numbers, but it has to be a two way thing and i know i will get shot down for this..... but as a angler..I hate gill nets.. I would love to see them gone..this is just my personal view, Im maybe wrong but im presuming you are a shooter that already has his own morals in place with regards taking more than we should?If you shoot rabbits are you trying to kill off them all.If you shoot pigeons,are you trying to kill off them all?Im hoping not and you want just to keep numbers down where they are a more tolerable amount.Now,put seals into that same sentence and I cant see whats not to understand.Im hoping very few,if any,people on the forum really want to kill off everything that shares the things we eat. Ive read all the posts on the thread and im struggling to see a logical reason why controlling seal numbers that have no natural predators here and are having an impact on other species including man is so different to keeping fox,rabbit,deer etc numbers down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sako751sg Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 I understand what you mean about people's livelihood being threatened by an alleged increase in some wild animals. This is why I said that we need to concentrate in improving our conduct and technology, meaning we need to find ways to be more efficient and productive than we have been. Traditionally humankind has concentrated on sustainability by just taking what they needed, up to the industrial revolution and the exponential increase in natural resources exploitation in the name of profit. If we are to continue existing on this planet we need to make sure we have a liveable habitat to exist within, and not treat everything around us as our property. It is not, it is our children's property which we borrowed for the duration of our existence. When it was suited to the human way of life, investment has been made to find ways to co exist (shark fences and other ways to keep sharks away from surfers and swimmers for example). Finding a solution to the seal problem (if there is such a thing) will require investment that nobody wants to make, unlike the investment on shark deterrents. You see, in the latter there are billions in tourist industry revenue, whilst in the former, like most human activity, quick profit and low cost for short term gain always come first... Interesting association. No, I do not believe foxes have to be controlled that way, but there are financial reasons that make shooting the cheapest and easiest way to control them. I personally do not shoot them when I see them, I do not see the reason to do so. If I was a farmer then I would have a different view. Unless I had the time and money to research alternative ways of dealing with them. But I believe this should be the job of the relevant departments in government and academia... As for rabbits and deer, again I do see them as a valuable source of food that has to be treated with respect and done properly. I am not happy seeing piles of dead rabbits laying on fields, I would much rather see them eaten by people. It is a very cheap, nutritious and delicious meat that is misunderstood and undervalued in the UK but thankfully not so in continental Europe. As for deer, I stalk myself, again as a means of adding a delicious and free range option to my diet. If I had the time I would probably shoot more and hopefully supply my friends and local butcher with excellent quality meat. I have seen people though shooting many beasts simply out of greed. I do not agree with that, but this is what they decide to do and it is their prerogative. I decide to take what I need, and leave the rest for another day. Im maybe taking this wrong,but I find this hypocritical.Im sure the local butcher would be making money from the excellent quality meat,which he would be able to source elsewhere,and then you say you decide to take what you need and leave the rest for another day? Apologies if it is taken wrong but im thinking the person who is "shooting many beasts simply out of greed" is also making money by selling to the local butcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linny Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 a guy that i no has salmon nets etc just down the coast from me and gets seals on a very regular occurrence taking fish and damaging his nets he has told me of a very large bull seal that is not at all put off by him and will come very near to him bold as brass and take fish he said its a real worry that one. tuna was big sport up here The British record which still stands is for a fish weighing 851 pounds (386.0 kg) caught off Scarborough in 1933 by Laurie Mitchell-Henry thanks google Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper3 Posted September 27, 2013 Report Share Posted September 27, 2013 Im maybe wrong but im presuming you are a shooter that already has his own morals in place with regards taking more than we should?If you shoot rabbits are you trying to kill off them all.If you shoot pigeons,are you trying to kill off them all?Im hoping not and you want just to keep numbers down where they are a more tolerable amount.Now,put seals into that same sentence and I cant see whats not to understand.Im hoping very few,if any,people on the forum really want to kill off everything that shares the things we eat. Ive read all the posts on the thread and im struggling to see a logical reason why controlling seal numbers that have no natural predators here and are having an impact on other species including man is so different to keeping fox,rabbit,deer etc numbers down. you presume right Sako, i do shoot , and i have no problem with actually culling a few seals.. and as you rightly say, i do have my morals....as others have theirs and which i respect..(if legal) but as shooters, anglers, or hunters we sometimes make our selves look greedy and narrow minded, this is not an attack on Sparkles, but a sit on the fence reply to the OP, its called healthy debate. in the OP , Sparkles pointed out that his mate had lost a days wage through seals nicking and eating the fish.... In a couple of words..thats tough luck, no matter how many seals you cull, they will still take from the nets.. (Nets are a thing i hate , just a personal view```) my point was.... we are a greedy race.... and a race that is growing, we seem to have lost respect for all other things in the name of the £ so !! we demand culling... as with fox's and other things we now call Vermin... we as a race have spread out more.. we need more land and more food.... as i have said, its not the controlling of numbers , but the way the argument is made, and we do need to think, on how not to destroy everything.. as i said earlier, once its gone , its gone for ever a few years ago i was taken for £10K , should i of asked for builders to be culled... of course not, that would be silly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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