BASC logo removed

[David BASC]

Kes, thanks for pointing out my post 41 , but may I point out my post 46 which seems to answer your question in your post 49.

 

But picking up you other valid point....

 

Yes its possible DEFRA will do nothing with the report.

 

Yes its possible the government of the day may decide to do something anyway regardless of what the report says or indeed even if a report is not issued.

 

So as I say, the logical emphasis for the UK's largest shooting organisation is to target this, planning ahead is hardly a lack of foresight.

 

Conspiracy theories are jolly exciting are they not, just get me started on moon landings, or JFK.... but rarely accurate, or proven in the end eh? Still passes the time for some while others get on and deal in the cold hard facts of the real world...

Edited December 15, 2013 by David BASC

[poontang]

 

 

The research has been done, I assume the findings agreed, all that left if for the LAG is for the report to be authored. There is nothing more anyone can do to influence the LAG report.

 

 

 

As far as I can see the risk assessments have been completed, though not peer reviewed and signed off as yet. You say there is nothing more to do, but of course there is a LOT more to do.

Once the risk assessments have been reviewed and signed off, those risks have to be managed. It is the in the remit of the LAG to manage any risk.

 

Surely BASC should be playing a major role in the risk management process? After all's said and done it's how the risk is managed that will affect shooters in the UK.

[wymberley]

 

After all's said and done it's how the risk is managed that will affect shooters in the UK.

Now, that is a cold hard fact and as we are now aware, BASC has left it for others to get on with.

[Kes]

Kes, thanks for pointing out my post 41 , but may I point out my post 46 which seems to answer your question in your post 49.

 

But picking up you other valid point....

 

Yes its possible DEFRA will do nothing with the report.

 

Yes its possible the government of the day may decide to do something anyway regardless of what the report says or indeed even if a report is not issued.

 

So as I say, the logical emphasis for the UK's largest shooting organisation is to target this, planning ahead is hardly a lack of foresight.

 

Conspiracy theories are jolly exciting are they not, just get me started on moon landings, or JFK.... but rarely accurate, or proven in the end eh? Still passes the time for some while others get on and deal in the cold hard facts of the real world...

David, Thanks for the responses but a strategy which tries to close the stable door after the horse has bolted is not forward planning. The point here is that those organisations with a will to damage shooting i.e. WWT and RSPB do not need a lot of opportunity to publicize their views after being a partner in a study - look at government proposals on buzzard culls. So, knowing that, why is BASC letting them take control of the agenda ?

Equally, I am not a market strategist but it seems logical to me to put out positive messages for shooting as the report is being written - if nothing else to counteract the RSPB propaganda which will flow, referenced to surveys of doubtful authenticity. Better that than trying to kill the WWT/RSPB story after it goes public and then trying to change a notoriously fickle governments opinion.

BASC should know this government is run by opinion poll, always better to get your view in first and heavily - how can you do that without representation ?

 

The evidence on raptor persecution articles by RSPB is there, as with buzzard control - they will 'opt out' again and portray their perspective. You know that, how can you defend BASC's position on this ?

Ok you have to but I give you more credit.

 

 

Headline - BASC says shooting is good for the countryside moments after a damning report on the use of lead shot emerges. I simply do not understand how this came about.

[David BASC]

I agree its how any risks identified are managed is very important as it will impact all of us. However, I do not belive that its up to the LAG to mange any risks identified, but to report on risks identified and make recommendations as to how those risks could be managed to DEFRA. As to the level of peer review that's best checked with the LAG.

 

As I say, once the report is published DEFRA then make the decision on what if anything to do about those risks, or indeed they may decide the risks are already well managed and no further action is needed. DEFRA will then decide what if anything to recommend to government, government will then decide what if anything needs to be done. So having played our part in the research, we now move our attention to focus on planning the political lobbying based on all possible scenarios with the objective of keeping lead shot.

 

Kes, when you say BASC are letting the WWT or RSPB take control of the agenda are you talking about the LAG agenda (which has not changed has it?) or raptor persecution? I think you will find that the horse is still well land truly in the stable as it were - as government is not currently minded to increase the restrictions on lead shot....we must encourage this position and then move to changes that I think many shooters in England want to see inland. That is way beyond the remit of the LAG in my view.

 

As to positive messages about shooting, I agree and you evidently missed out reports on this very issue on Radio 4 this very week , and in the shooting press....

 

David

Edited December 15, 2013 by David BASC

[welshwarrior]

David I'm slightly concerned BASC are not involved in the writing of the final report steering the wording, but also having that inside knowledge to inform your planning to assist with responses to the final report.

 

Would it not help you plan that response if you knew what it said from your 'man on the inside'?

[Kes]

David - Thanks for that.

It will be for every member to judge their response in due course. I may not be the only one who is feeling rather disenfranchised.

I can also assure you that if the R4 and shooting press reports had been as stunning as they need to be, I would probably have seen/heard them.

How long may I ask has JS been working independently ? I seem to recall earlier discussions about the work of the LAG and JS was then no longer CE.

I shall find them and refresh my memory.

[CharlieT]

BASC is the self proclaimed 'voice of shooting' and biggest shooting organisation in the UK - to save me typing, for more info' just have a look on Wikipedia. I have just been looking at Gunsmoke's photo/video and staring at that great big hole (reminds me about a song of Liza and a bucket). Ex now, but as a member for some 35 years, one of the first Hon REDOs, Sporting Shotgun Shooting Coaches and a Hon FO, metaphorically speaking, I could weep. The fact that the hole is there at all can only mean that there has been a mistake on the part of the organisation. Now, as this would have to have been of such a Gargantuan level, it is unthinkable that that should have occurred. Consequently, there is only one alternative: It is deliberate.

 

Therefore, Charlie, on this occasion, I'm afraid that you really have got it all wrong.

 

That is exactly what I feared !

[gunsmoke]

I do not know who is paying JAS for his LAG work, please ask the LAG if you want to know. DEFRA asked JAS to be the chairman, and as far as I know it was their decision, backed by the other members of the LAG that he should carry on as chairman after he retired from BASC as few months ago, but if you want to check that please ask the LAG

 

Its sad that gunsmoke has resorted to type as it were claiming, falsely, that BASC have promoted steel shot by making false and misleading statements about lead - total rubbish - we have been round this subject time and time again

 

John Swift or one BASC member of staff told me that he [john swift] was still under contract by BASC to finish the job as chairman of the LAG.

 

Once again you mislead people with your post. I did not said BASC made misleading statements about lead. I said that BASC made misleading statement to promote steel shot.

 

I should not be fighting you. You should be on my side fighting for the good of all shooters.

[poontang]

I agree its how any risks identified are managed is very important as it will impact all of us. However, I do not belive that its up to the LAG to mange any risks identified, but to report on risks identified and make recommendations as to how those risks could be managed to DEFRA. As to the level of peer review that's best checked with the LAG.

 

.

 

 

 

David

 

Sorry David, but I have to disagree with the above.

 

Taken from the last minutes of the LAG...

 

 

The LAG have been tasked with the job of risk management, which as you have stated will have great impact on all shooters.

 

So either BASC, as they have left the group, will have no input into the risk management process OR all risk assessments have been completed, peer reviewed and authored, thereby allowing risk management strategies to be implemented? In which case why does the LAG not publish its findings?

 

It's all rather bizarre if you ask me.

[snowmonster]

It appears to be all smoke and mirrors, and to a layman BASC now appear to want to be distancing themselves from the report now pending, certainly doesn't bode well from where I'm looking probably time to get the Vaseline out and get ready for it again.

[David BASC]

Gunmoke, I am frankly sick and tired of your personal accusations that I am misleading people, no I am not, I clearly said that I did not know who was paying JAS for his continued work on the LAG. That was true, and I thank others for posting up the minutes from the LAG that show BASC are covering his expenses.

 

BASC have never ever put out anything misleading about lead or anything else in order to promote steel , nor can you prove we have can you? What you are trying to achieve by these personal attacks on me or BASC I just don't know. Why on earth would BASC ever do anything that would damage shooting? It would be totally counterproductive wouldn't it - so what possibly could be our motive?

 

Yes we are on the same side when it comes to lead shot or do you disagree with the BASC policy on lead shot? Has our new CEO not made it blatantly clear where BASC stand on the issues?

 

Poontang, I stand by what I said, the LAG may well come up with suggestions of how risks that may have been identified by the sub group, but they have no legislative power to make changes or the resources to deliver on the risk management, that rests with government, that's my point, maybe I was not clear?

 

As to what's causing the delay in the LAG reporting on its findings, I have no idea at all why on earth its taking so long either

[Gordon R]

Martyn - fair enough.

[kent]

I don't think the Anti will ever finish us our own side is quite capable of doing that AND I DONT MEAN BASC!

[wymberley]

I don't think the Anti will ever finish us

Phew! That's a relief.

[David BASC]

Dear All,

 

I have discussed all of this in detail with senior colleagues this morning. I have expressed your concerns over the dropping of the BASC logo, and you will see its back there now. There was, and the conspiracy theorists will love this, simply a bit of a breakdown in communication at this end.

 

Firstly, may I reassure you all that shootings interests are very well represented on the LAG, Barney White Spunner is the shooting rep on the group and keeps in very close contact with us and the other shooting organisations.

 

BASC were active on the sub groups and the work of these groups has finished but BASC still provide much of the admin function as already confirmed.

 

Best wishes to all

 

David

[Dekers]

My relief is immeasurable, for a moment it seemed the world was about to end and all hope was gone.

 

 

Slightly seriously for a moment, well done all concerned including the OP!

[Kes]

That is reasurring and returns us to the position we were at, at the beginning of the thread - still a few dragons to slay though WWT and RSPB for instance. When you think about it David, it was an unfortunate omission in the circumstances.

[andrewluke]

Dear All,

 

I have discussed all of this in detail with senior colleagues this morning. I have expressed your concerns over the dropping of the BASC logo, and you will see its back there now. There was, and the conspiracy theorists will love this, simply a bit of a breakdown in communication at this end.

 

Firstly, may I reassure you all that shootings interests are very well represented on the LAG, Barney White Spunner is the shooting rep on the group and keeps in very close contact with us and the other shooting organisations.

 

BASC were active on the sub groups and the work of these groups has finished but BASC still provide much of the admin function as already confirmed.

 

Best wishes to all

 

David

 

 

you cant knock some of the members for asking questions as even you didn't know exactly what was going on!

 

 

andrew

[CharlieT]

Thank you David............ Great news that the Countryside Alliance is on top of it. Good job you and I are members !!

 

Seriously though, well done to you personally for kicking bottoms.

[David BASC]

Yes it’s a good example of organisations working together, and not tripping each other over as it were!

 

As you say, happy we are members of both!

 

David

[shaun4860]

David,

 

You have a pretty thankless job on here but fair play to you for hanging in here,

 

It must be all to easy to walk away

 

[David BASC]

I am here to do all I can to help.

 

David

[Gordon R]

David - I admire the way you have patiently answered questions and ultimately held your hands up for a breakdown in communications. These things happen. I just wish some wouldn't rush to see things in the worst possible light.

 

Fair play to those who have honestly questioned what was going on - without any hidden agenda - they had a point.

[mudpatten]

David, I`m sure Gunsmokeandmirrors will be along shortly to offer you his personal thanks.

 

It`ll be interesting to see how he does it.