Hard mouth

[ollie]

Hi all, I am after a bit of advice.

 

My Cocker Spaniel is turning into a good rough shooting dog apart from the fact he is a bit hard in the mouth.

 

A bit of background. This is his first season and he is 16 months old. With the dummy he lifts it perfectly and delivers straight to my hand without any issues. In the field I have shot Woodcock, rabbits and pheasants, but each time he brings the game back but he will tear the flesh and skin when he is giving it back to me. He is not too keen in releasing the bird when I try and take it off him also.

 

Anyway, do any of you guys have any suggestions about how to curb this. He is a great wee hunter and is obedient, so it is a shame that he is hard in the mouth.

[kent]

True hard mouth is crushing the ribcage etc. tears to skin etc can happen in catching up a bird etc. realeasing birds to the handler is another matter, what is it like if you praise before giving the release command and give it a little more time? At 16mnths he is young.

 

try with a few frozen rock hard birds a while and see what occurs

[PERCE]

Just be patient with him, he's a young dog & he'll work out how to pick stuff in a while.

[t jack]

doesn't sound like hard mouth, more unwilling to give up the retrieve, a common cocker trait, when he comes in with the delivery, stand on his foot, he will soon drop the bird then, after a few times doing this he should get the message.

[kent]

doesn't sound like hard mouth, more unwilling to give up the retrieve, a common cocker trait, when he comes in with the delivery, stand on his foot, he will soon drop the bird then, after a few times doing this he should get the message.

 

Yeah, like I aint coming in That's like so far off base- its actually force fetch in total reverse!

[lee-kinsman]

Leave the fresh game alone for a month or so and give him cold game only. He should calm down.

[ollie]

True hard mouth is crushing the ribcage etc. tears to skin etc can happen in catching up a bird etc. realeasing birds to the handler is another matter, what is it like if you praise before giving the release command and give it a little more time? At 16mnths he is young.

 

try with a few frozen rock hard birds a while and see what occurs

 

He isn't crushing the birds, but there are bite marks when I dress the birds and quite often tears in the meat. Doesn't matter if I praise or not. I might try with the rock hard frozen bird; but would this maybe put him off retrieving as it is so cold.

 

doesn't sound like hard mouth, more unwilling to give up the retrieve, a common cocker trait, when he comes in with the delivery, stand on his foot, he will soon drop the bird then, after a few times doing this he should get the message.

 

Thanks for the advice but I am not too keen on standing in the dogs foot. I think this would put him off retrieving.

 

Leave the fresh game alone for a month or so and give him cold game only. He should calm down.

 

Problem is that he is my only fit gundog so I need him for the rest of the season. I will maybe not send him for retrieves for a while.

[kent]

Only gundog then even more take the advice Lee offers up into the mix. If frozen birds stop it retrieving get rid the dog is useless, likelihood of that occurring about Nil Let me tell you your problem is very small and to be expected in a learner, I have had dogs neck an odd early retrieve and turn out good in the end as have others trust me damage without crushing is fine its just leaning. The advantage of frozen hard is you can use them 1000 times as long as they are kept hard and tearing cannot happen

[ollie]

Only gundog then even more take the advice Lee offers up into the mix. If frozen birds stop it retrieving get rid the dog is useless, likelihood of that occurring about Nil Let me tell you your problem is very small and to be expected in a learner, I have had dogs neck an odd early retrieve and turn out good in the end as have others trust me damage without crushing is fine its just leaning. The advantage of frozen hard is you can use them 1000 times as long as they are kept hard and tearing cannot happen

 

Thanks for the advice. He is really keen to retrieve and has a great nose, so I doubt it would put him off. I am just worried as with a dummy he has no problem lifting it, he takes it straight to hand and gives it back; with game he almosts bites it a few times on the ground before he lifts it, like he is struggling to get a grip of it and then he is not keen to let go when he gets to me.

[kent]

Thanks for the advice. He is really keen to retrieve and has a great nose, so I doubt it would put him off. I am just worried as with a dummy he has no problem lifting it, he takes it straight to hand and gives it back; with game he almosts bites it a few times on the ground before he lifts it, like he is struggling to get a grip of it and then he is not keen to let go when he gets to me.

It most likely is struggling to get a grip it takes time for them to learn. My young dog rarely works Pheasant and brought a big cock bird back in the most unbalanced way on Sat, put it down looked like he was tucking in but brought it in to hand. Guess hat an odd tear in the skin but I also never saw how hard it was for him to pull it out the brambles it landed in.

The only thing with frozen is hares they hurt like heck rammed into the shins at speed LOL. The dog will struggle less to find the balance point on frozen its the new shot floppy ones were they tend to have issues

[t jack]

 

Yeah, like I aint coming in That's like so far off base- its actually force fetch in total reverse!

Let him crack on then and try everything else first, as with anything there is a knack to it, cockers are renowned for not wanting to give up retrieves, how many cockers have you trained/owned Kent? As the dog comes in with delivery, go as normal to take the retrieve, once your hands are on the game give the release command, at the same time apply pressure on the dogs paw with your foot, I don't mean stamp on it just a gentle amount and the dog will immediately release game after 2-3 goes of this the dog will release on the command without the pressure on its paw.

[kent]

Let him crack on then and try everything else first, as with anything there is a knack to it, cockers are renowned for not wanting to give up retrieves, how many cockers have you trained/owned Kent? As the dog comes in with delivery, go as normal to take the retrieve, once your hands are on the game give the release command, at the same time apply pressure on the dogs paw with your foot, I don't mean stamp on it just a gentle amount and the dog will immediately release game after 2-3 goes of this the dog will release on the command without the pressure on its paw.

 

The breed matters not, this is crazy. A dog is a dog and classical conditioning is well understood in dogs. I am not surprised you say they are notorious for this if there are other people actually doing this The nuttiest retrieverholic I have ever seen was a black cocker that was treat trained, it didn't spit (unlike I expected) and sat almost indefinitely awaiting the owner to take objects from it.

Like I say your way is the exact opposite of FF timing ( another method I find distasteful and not required) The dog comes back does it not- why do you think that is?

[PERCE]

What TJack has described is a very well know method of making a dog let go, it's certainly not a training trick that's exclusive to cockers.

[Maddaftspaniel]

My springer had a habit of biting the retrieve but not crushing it. Just leaving teethmarks.

 

I got a wire brush and tied some pheasant wings to it and made him retrieve it. That stopped him from biting soon enough. (I had to cut the handle off the brush because he soon learned to pick it up that way)

[rossymcg]

He's a young dog, walk with him on a lead holding the game taking it iff him and giving it him back as youd like him to carry it, correcting him and prasing him as he's going,

at the min he may not quite know what you want from him,

[kent]

What TJack has described is a very well know method of making a dog let go, it's certainly not a training trick that's exclusive to cockers.

That it might be - but I defy anyone to justify why its good to break all the known rules of classical conditioning. Dog comes back with the retrieve and gets its toes trodden on - now there is a good way of training a dog to stand off as any! There are loads of commonly used ways that are just plain dumb

[FarmerSim]

stand on his foot, .

 

I was going to write a great long reply to this....

 

Suffice it to say, I'm with Kent

 

Don't stand on your dogs foot, ever!

[Dr D]

Ollie, get youself a rabbit skin, cut a load of small bit from a whin bush. Stuff the skin and sew it up well. Let him retrieve that for a week and nothing else. Aftr that take him out after rabbits nothing else til he is sorted. Its an old trick.

 

By the way, it doesnt sound like he is hard mouthed, so you may notneed to do this. To me he sounds like a teenager. Hes not giving up because he is testingyour authority. Show him who the boss is by going back to basics. Retrieves in an enclosed space with cold game and once thats sorted go back to shot stuff. Either way the problem is solvable. Good luck

Edited December 21, 2013 by Dr D

[ollie]

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll not be standing on my dogs toes!!!

 

I'll try the frozen trick & if that doesn't work I'll try putting whins inside a rabbit skin.

[Cranfield]

Agree to disagree, but less of the personal insults.

[scotslad]

Not going to get to involved in this and never had this problem (yet) but i would far rather apply slight pressure to a dogs paw than ask it to retrieve a wire brush or whins why don't u just go the whole hog and ask it to retrieve barbed wire or broken glass

I would say both methods are possibly not ideal and both could cause further problems with a sticky retriever, althou it appears not to be the case here so either or may well work with no problems.

 

I think retrieveing problems can be complicated althou usually a very simple solution if u see a decent trainer in the flesh and they can watch both u and the dog and usually give u a bit off advice that should work.

 

As others have said 16 month is quite young esp if it has been working form the start of the season. Has it been doing it all season or jist started? Could just be too much too soon, very easy to spoil dogs by doing that.

Spoiled my young lab doing that, surprising the problems it can throw up, some might not even show up till next season

I persumed u coped before this season with no dog? Not worth spoiling it by continuing to work it as u will have to put up with it for next 10 odd years

[ollie]

Not going to get to involved in this and never had this problem (yet) but i would far rather apply slight pressure to a dogs paw than ask it to retrieve a wire brush or whins why don't u just go the whole hog and ask it to retrieve barbed wire or broken glass

I would say both methods are possibly not ideal and both could cause further problems with a sticky retriever, althou it appears not to be the case here so either or may well work with no problems.

 

I think retrieveing problems can be complicated althou usually a very simple solution if u see a decent trainer in the flesh and they can watch both u and the dog and usually give u a bit off advice that should work.

 

As others have said 16 month is quite young esp if it has been working form the start of the season. Has it been doing it all season or jist started? Could just be too much too soon, very easy to spoil dogs by doing that.

Spoiled my young lab doing that, surprising the problems it can throw up, some might not even show up till next season

I persumed u coped before this season with no dog? Not worth spoiling it by continuing to work it as u will have to put up with it for next 10 odd years

Thanks for the post.my 4 year old springer tore her cruciate ligament in the spring so she is now retired.thats why I only have 1 fit gundog.

 

I have only noticed recently with the smaller birds that he has been mouthing them.he retrieved mallard earlier in the season but obviously they are harder to get his mouth around.

 

I was out on the woodcock at the weekend & he broke the woodcock's back,but he released the bird ok.he also retrieved 2 pigeons (1 of which was a runner) and he was fine with them.

[scotslad]

Must admit on a personal level i'm not a big fan off cockers anyway, but i do think there breeding them far too small nowadays so they are always going to have some problems with larger birds purely due to the physical size of their jaws and weight of bird compared to their body wieght, sure i read a small cocker carrying a hare is like carrying half ur body wieght in ur jaw (althou size should not be an issue for cock or pigeon)

Dunno but possibly fine with pigeon because off there lose feathers and had a mouthful and didn't like it? (similar idea to the posts about whins and wire brush)

 

Is there any way u can go shooting without ur dog using ur mates u shoot with dogs to retrieve shot game?

Duck are generally quite hard feathered/skinned so quite hard to mark even the smaller duck sp. If ur dog was fine earlier on in season i'd just say it has done too much and is picking up some bad habits.

 

The quickest way to ruin a well trained dog is to take it shooting

Hope u get ur problem fixed, but just remember u will have years off shooting over ur dog, be worth sacrificing last month of this season to have a better dog for next 8-10 seasons, i'd try and get some face to face advice of a decent exp trainer

[Dr D]

Ollie, I agree totally with the last post. As I said, back to basics and some short term regression for longer term gain. However, the rabbit skin can work if the obvious solution fails. Although it is a measure of last resort. A professional trainer worth his salt, in my experience, will tell you to get rid of the dog. Generally field trial men, shift dogs on that dont come up to the mark, they dont try to fix major bad habits. Its different for the rough shooter. But then we need our dogs to work differently. I am sure that comment will get a few backs up, but you know what I mean. Pushing heavy cover on a fire break for woodcock is completely different to pushing a pheasant in an estate. Everyone wants the perfect dog, but they rarely come along. As long as the wee dog is putting the birds up and you are banging those woodcock sure its doing grand. Stick at it.