BASC to launch £100,000 legal expenses cover for members

[Scully]

Why on earth would BASC or our insurers run a case to law that has no chance of winning , resulting in a member who is still revoked and having court decision simply supporting the original revocation / refusal and be left with a £30k+ bill to boot? That would benefit no one would it? Or do you disagree?

 

The vast majority of members will never make a claim on the Public Liability policy, do you honestly suggest that BASC should drop that?

 

 

No, I don't disagree at all. I merely referenced a genuine case where the member was given advice NOT to persue and despite this decided to persue and went on to be granted a certificate. As I said, this was (just) before BASC introduced this scheme but it also is as I said, dependant on whether BASC or its insurers decide to persue,rightly or wrongly. If the member had been privy to the new scheme the advice would have still remained the same so he wouldn't have benefitted as his circumstances would still have remained the same. BASC didn't think there was much chance of success (wrongly as it turned out) so their decision was to advise the member not to persue the matter. It's not a criticism, merely a fact. Having legal expenses cover is no guarantee the right decision will be made, which is the point I was trying to make.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Scully

[al4x]

I have to say I was under the impression if you were subject to a false claim that was deemed winnable that basc would take it on before this, or is that just if you know the right people in the organisation..... Like a local to hq's rugby player

[mudpatten]

I`ve just messaged Gunsmoke to see if we can get him to add his measured and realistic criticism of BASC to this thread.

 

Most of the usual anti BASC pack have now put in an appearance but this debate is noticeable for his absence.

[David BASC]

In the case of a claim on the LE policy we would request the full bundle from the police and also ask the member to send us a copy of all the correspondence, this would be reviewed by a qualified solicitor. Regardless of the decision, the member would be fully informed and also given guidance, based on said evidence, of the next step.

 

Yes Al4x we have taken claims forward before, but the LE policy gives us more resources ,not sure what the rugby reference is about?

[Dekers]

It would appear then, that I am a gullible fool because, like many others I see increased insurance cover as something worth having.

 

Dekers, answer the man. How many claims on the policy would you think would make the policy valuable?

 

Seems simple enough to me. Incidentally, why do you hate BASC so much?

 

I have never said increased insurance cover is not worth having, I have been attempting to find out how much we are being charged for it and then decide if it is worth the extra cost, read my posts.

 

David has not answered my question, it isn't difficult but now apparently he can refuse because it is against policy, that's a new twist, taken enough posts to get that out.

#38

"I would genuinely like to see some figures attached to this...like, just how many may benefit, (these figures are known/researched in order to quote an appropriate premium) and how much the BASC fees are going up for this!?"

 

Every member has a right to question from within, I am a member ....incidentally, why do you make unfounded comments?

Edited January 4, 2014 by Dekers

[David BASC]

No problems asking me questions! As I have said, subs are going up by a total of £3, and part of that is for the LE cover

 

And I hope you don't mind me asking them too??? And I am interested to hear what level of claim you feel makes the new benefit worthwhile

[mudpatten]

You really can`t have it both ways Dekers old chap.

 

Answer the question, please.

[welsh1]

I`ve just messaged Gunsmoke to see if we can get him to add his measured and realistic criticism of BASC to this thread.

 

Most of the usual anti BASC pack have now put in an appearance but this debate is noticeable for his absence.

Who are they

[sako751sg]

Who are they

 

Come on fella,you should know anyone who dares question BASC is in the pack.

[welsh1]

 

Come on fella,you should know anyone who dares question BASC is in the pack.

[Scully]

I`ve just messaged Gunsmoke to see if we can get him to add his measured and realistic criticism of BASC to this thread.

 

Most of the usual anti BASC pack have now put in an appearance but this debate is noticeable for his absence.

And this post is noticeable by your usual pure drivel which contributes absolutely nothing to the debate apart from the usual goading, or trolling if you prefer.

You may regard me as one of the 'pack' (which I don't mind at all incidently) but as a long standing member of BASC I quite resent being described as 'anti'! If that were the case why would I pay them good money year after year?

I am also a lifelong Tory voter but also one of their biggest critics because I expect MORE from them. I expect the same of BASC.

As I've said before, David is a big boy now,and a BASC representative, and sticks his head above the parapet as part of his job but with absolutely no obligation to do so. He is the ONLY shooting organisation representative to grace the pages of this forum on a regular basis and therefore deserves our respect for that at least, but inevitably he will get some stick. He can handle it.

With the exception of making a point (which I've made) I have no interest in this issue,unlike other issues which I feel are more important, but I don't intend to go off topic.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Scully

[Dekers]

So 15 members on this thread seem to agree its a major benefit and you say its not, on other threads on this forum and similar threads on other forums members have repeatedly asked BASC to introduce this cover but you say you are in the majority? No they don't, I don't see any member saying this is a major benefit, that is the BASC quote, and I certainly do not, as you have already conceded it will only be of use to a small number, so how can that be a Major Benefit!

 

You may be blissfully unaware of the number of problems shooters are having with several licencing authorities with their new 'risk averse' attitude, at BASC however we have been closely monitoring the issues that are arising from licencing teams all over the UK and its clear that the risk of cases having to go to court is significantly higher now than it has ever been, self insuring as we have been, is no longer viable. So this was covered to at least some extent historically but now we have to pay.

 

The cover was introduced based not just on the whim of the BASC marketing department but based on market research including discussion on this and other forums and face to face meetings with members at shows and events and a formal presentation and discussion by the elected BASC members who make up BASC Council. If you bothered to do a bit of desk top research yourself you would see very clearly that BASC members have left BASC to join another association who offered legal expenses insurance (but no longer do) simply because they saw this as a major benefit, more important than liability insurance even. Yes, and to my knowledge EVERY other shooting organisation is cheaper but giving generally as good or potentially better insurance cover, says something really, lets not start about what else the BASC does, your own comments here highlight the overall, importance members put on insurance rather than other services! It would to totally daft for me to ignore this need expressed by members.

 

You seem willing to criticise me for 'speculating' in some of my posts above but then repeatedly ask me to speculate on the number of cases we will take to court in 2014? It isn't speculation, it is underwriting, insurance companies don't speculate, they investigate as far as possible and provide a premium based on best researched information! Yes of course we provided the underwriters and brokers with an estimation of the type and number of cases we are likely to see based on, in this case, the past 5 years of cases our firearms team have been involved with. I will see if any figures are available for publication. progress towards my question!

 

As I have said, and perhaps you don't or cant accept, running successful cases WILL have a positive knock on effect, as they will help prevent further revocations and refusals based on the same criteria by that licencing team, consequently helping many others as a result. Cases have been to court historically and you say are increasing, so it seems to have had a completely counter productive effect!

 

I am not at liberty to disclose any income or expenditure figures over and above those that will be published in our written accounts. That's convenient.

 

Its a shame that you still say members of this forum and I assume you would lay the same accusation against all members of BASC who see this as a major benefit are gullible fools, I don't think many will thank you for that. Nobody I have seen on this forum has said this is a MAJOR BENEFIT, that is a BASC Marketing quote, and I stand by my comment until you can back up the BASC quote with fact! Please do not misquote me ...I said .....

"Anyone who blindly accepts the BASC promotion that this is a MAJOR BENEFIT (Direst BASC quote) is a gullible fool if they have only your word (BASC Marketing Dept) and nothing to back that up with. It seems to me there is more than a significant blurring of Marketing and fact."

 

I see you are now resorting to profanity to try and underline your points by suggesting 'someone is taking the ****' But I agree ,it will be down to members and prospective members to make up their own minds if they think this new insurance is a major benefit. You again misquote me, it does not become you David, I said.....

"If the membership has gone up Nothing or just a few pence for this then perhaps it is worthwhile, but as this has not been answered then how can I make an informed comment, most definitely if the lions share of the anticipated £3.00 increase in BASC membership rates is down to this then someone is taking the ****."

...and I 100% stand by that as well, that makes circa £400,000 being passed on to the membership in increased insurance premium if that is true, but I have SPECIFICALLY asked several times how much of that increase is down to insurance and you have not answered, and now apparently are not at liberty to discuss the figure!

 

I also note that you are refusing to answer my direct question of how many claims on the policy would you think would make the policy valuable...why? It a simple question.

The number of claims on any policy is not a measure of its worth to the insured, the cost risk return ratio is what is important, which is what I have been trying to find out since my first question in #38.

 

David

 

David, we can apparently continue this forever, you are avoiding my questions, misquoting me, clouding the issue and bringing in spurious unwarranted comments, my question was simple......

 

#38

"I would genuinely like to see some figures attached to this...like, just how many may benefit, (these figures are known/researched in order to quote an appropriate premium) and how much the BASC fees are going up for this!?"

 

I am not and have not been lambasting the BASC here, I have simply been attempting to establish fact, and it seems the BASC do not, or will not, or can not answer the question.

 

I read a comment in the BASC magazine that you are now providing me something and charging me more for the privilege and then suggest it is a MAJOR BENEFIT to me, well, I don't see it and I'm simply asking for the reason why this is a Major Benefit to me.

 

 

Edited January 4, 2014 by Dekers

[Dekers]

You really can`t have it both ways Dekers old chap.

 

Answer the question, please.

 

What on earth are you talking about....... I can't have it both ways?

 

Read my posts.

 

It is a stupid meaningless question......

 

The number of claims on any policy is not a measure of its worth to the insured, the cost risk return ratio is what is important, which is what I have been trying to find out since my first question in #38.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Dekers

[The Essex Hunter]

 

 

David, we can apparently continue this forever, you are avoiding my questions, misquoting me, clouding the issue and bringing in spurious unwarranted comments, my question was simple......

 

#38

"I would genuinely like to see some figures attached to this...like, just how many may benefit, (these figures are known/researched in order to quote an appropriate premium) and how much the BASC fees are going up for this!?"

 

I am not and have not been lambasting the BASC here, I have simply been attempting to establish fact, and it seems the BASC do not, or will not, or can not answer the question.

 

I read a comment in the BASC magazine that you are now providing me something and charging me more for the privilege and then suggest it is a MAJOR BENEFIT to me, well, I don't see it and I'm simply asking for the reason why this is a Major Benefit to me.

 

 

 

I can know see why you have close to 9000 posts in 4 years.....!!lol

Get a grip of your clip board, rule book and pen....

 

 

TEH

Edited January 4, 2014 by The Essex Hunter

[evo]

all I can say is " roll on march"

 

let my battle commence with the firearms team

 

at last

 

atb Evo

[David BASC]

Evening Dekers,

 

Firstly I do not think you are lambasting BASC. As member of course you can ask questions and as my record on this and other forums shows I will try to answer them, Some I cant, and all I can suggest in those rare cases is that you pop me an e-mail and I will pass it to my line manager of the Ch Exec to see if they can answer it for you. But a full financial report will be sent to all members as I have said. All be it not until 2015 will our accounts be updated to reflect the increase in insurance costs.

 

I will try my best to answer the questions you have asked by bolding bits of my post etc, but if I miss anything please let me know. Also if anything I have posted is spurious ( as in fake, bogus, forged) again let me know, cant think of anything can you?... I would also appreciate an answer to the questions I have asked, is that fair?

 

I have not intentionally misquoted you, but quoted specific parts of your posts, just as you have done to me...

 

You seem to have an issue with the word major - Major = main, key, chief , most important. Yes insurance is the major benefit that shooters look for when joining a shooting organisation, can we agree on that?. As I have said, many members through our research have identified LE expenses as a key, main, most important benefit and have clearly stated the lack of BASC providing it as a reason to leave, despite the self insurance we offered - hence the use of the word Major in the announcement of this enhanced insurance offering in the BASC membership package. You may not accept this but that's the reasoning.

 

Yes we have been self insuring from within membership subs, so obviously members pay for this already, so the principle of paying for legal representation exits, but having a LE policy gives us more flexibility and more resources, and this has to be paid for.

 

You are spot on that insurers base premiums on risk, as BASC had no LE policy in place and thus had no claims information, only information of cases we have self insured. Insurers usually want evidence of past experience from an existing policy to base a premium on; 5 years worth is not unusual, but 2-3 is acceptable So much of their analysis was based on other LE products already in the market, and their performance which are based on claims v premiums, together with our analysis of the growing number if issues our members are facing with licencing authorities, about 10 years worth of data. So they looked at claims that had been made in the last few years and the fact that the number (thus risk) of claims was increasing.

 

Cases have gone to court and have proven productive, what I think you have missed in the major point that demonstrably more and more licencing teams are becoming risk averse, so revocations and refusals are becoming more likely as the licencing teams shift the goalposts and that is an issues that needs to be addressed, and court action or the threat of court action is part of that. Trust me, the decision to include this cover at an additional cost was not taken lightly, and that's why it had to go through a tough review at BASC Council.

 

Is your view the phrase 'taking the ****' is not profane? Evidently I and the forum sensors have a different view on this.

 

Of course I have never ever said that the LE cover will cost £400,000. This was a figure proposed by another forum member, and I can say this is totally inaccurate.

 

I hope that answers your questions or shows you how you can get those I cant reposed to answered, have I missed anything?

 

 

So may I ask you please:

 

Which other organisations offer the same or better insurance than BASC ,even without the LE cover? ( check if they are policies of last resort, have an excess to pay on common claims such as property damage, exclude covers for beating / picking up, exclude cover for selling the game / venison you sell, exclude cover for other members guns you have in your possession if you damage them, include personal accident cover)

 

OK if the number of claims is not relevant, could you please tell me what in your view an acceptable cost risk ratio return would be and how it would be calculated? Risk return ratios are normally used in share dealing or pension funds?

 

You may not, at this moment in time, see the LE cover as an important, key or most important benefit, but would you use this insurance if needed?

 

What level of cost do you think is viable / acceptable to deliver £100,000 of LE cover for 135,000 shooters?

 

Do you see the Public liability insurance as a major benefit, although the chances of you ever needing it a tiny?

 

Best wishes

 

David

[welsh1]

This old post may be of interest,as you can see the poster is stating that the cost of the insurance will be under £3,I am presuming it is pennies short for him to state £3.

So is our subs increase just to cover the cost of the insurance?

 

#95 Dee Wildfowler

 

Members

 

53 posts

Joined 26-August 12

From:Little Neston, Cheshire

Posted 21 September 2013 - 09:43 AM

I raised the matter of legal cover at Thursday's BASC Council meeting, it was confirmed that for an individual the cost would be between £20 and £30 depending on which insurer was used, however if BASC bought cover for the whole membership the cost per head would be under £3, therefore it appears to be a no brainer and I expect a formal proposal to include it as part of the insurance package in November for inclusion in the Budget for next year. But just to confirm, it will be legal cover for firearms issues only and not for anything else.

 

John

 

Quote

MultiQuote

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[al4x]

all I can say is " roll on march"

 

let my battle commence with the firearms team

 

at last

 

atb Evo

If they won't take it on now I can't see anything will change. This cover will have a similar process of vetting to the current policy through self insurance.

[Mungler]

I remain mindful that a large chunk of license revocations are fully justified by plod. I wouldn't want BASC throwing time or members money at hopeless un winnable cases and so a stage 1 sanity check makes perfect sense. That's not going to be to everyone's liking though is it? It's not going to be precise science and no one likes to be told what to do or to think they are genuinely in the wrong.

 

My annual BASC subscription costs me the equivalent of 3/4 of a tank of diesel. It's about the same as 9 packs of B&H ciggies or 20 minutes with a High Street solicitor give or take the VAT.

 

Now, I know there's a lot of thrifty people on here but I am amazed at what people think they should be getting for their BASC subs.

 

And to think we have David BASC on here 24/7 to answer questions and get involved..... unlike any other shooting organisation.

 

And finally on the subject of insurance I too subscribe to the "insurance companies sell umbrellas when the sun is shining and take them away when it rains" but when the poop hits the fan I'd rather be arguing with an insurance company / the insurance ombudsman whilst holding an insurance policy then mopping up poop with my own money and dealing with a Claimant's firm of solicitors directly.

 

And all of this for just how much of an annual subscription? Not to mention the lobbying of MPs, education, courses, PR and wider support for shooting as a whole.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Mungler

[al4x]

Out of interest what policy will we actually hold? I'm fully with you on the sanity check mungler and that's why I don't see it as much difference to before. The issue is who actually says if you can or cannot make a claim, when will the small print be available?

Most of the issues we see on here are due to lack of experience or genuine need and I can't see any of that changing. Revocations are rarely done with no justification and unlikely to be worth fighting most. The thing that makes me think little will change really is down to the premium being calculated on the basis of previous self insurance. At that point it seems more a marketing ploy based upon sacs success with it and also a justification for a membership fee increase

[Mungler]

Seriously? All this over a £3 fee increase?

 

If you start from the realistic premise that nothing ever gets any cheaper year on year we should be grateful that BASC have lead with a little bit of good news with a small but beneficial change to the insurance cover.

 

When all my other bills come in this year they will just go up, with no change and no good news.

[David BASC]

I can assure all of you that part of my job as head of marketing is to develop and improve the BASC membership package, and adding legal expenses insurance is a key element of that development for 2014.

 

Other initiatives for launch and development in 2014 include:

Delivering members the opportunity to save money on high street / supermarket spend

Increasing the number of car manufactures offering significant discounts for BASC members

Increasing the number of BASC trade members offering discounts to BASC members

Opening up more shooting opportunities for BASC members

 

As I have said, the decision is made on based on law, having a LE policy in place gives us a significant resource over and above what can be delivered through self insuring. It will make the process much faster and a member will have a specialist lawyer on their case and fully funded almost immediately.

 

Of course we will not entertain cases where someone had done something stupid and lost their licence accordingly, and although I agree that many revocations or refusals are valid, some are based on misunderstandings, which BASC can usually resolve, but others the licencing teams are simply over reacting and under their risk averse attitude are simply revoking or refusing knowing that the shooters only option is to go to court.

 

Almost none of us can afford to take a case to court, the licencing teams know this, but now BASC members have the significant benefit of £100,000 legal expenses to fall back on if they are wronged.

 

As to the details of the policy and cover, more will be published in the March S&C, all members will be sent a policy summary at renewal time, full policy wording will be on the web site too and a hard copy can be sent to any member or indeed prospective member upon request.

 

But in the interim, if anyone has any questions about the policy please let me know.

 

David

[Dekers]

David

 

I have said historically on PW your presence is appreciated and also in this thread, I have asked a simple question that has developed out of all proportion and it is now apparent it is not going to be answered.

 

#38

"I would genuinely like to see some figures attached to this...like, just how many may benefit, (these figures are known/researched in order to quote an appropriate premium) and how much the BASC fees are going up for this!?"

 

The answers should be two figures, for example "23 and 77p" . It does not take several pages and hours of post, and clouding of the issue.

 

There seems no point in continuing this debate if the answer is not going to be forthcoming. If others are happy with the lack of information supplied and accept without question this is a MAJOR BENEFIT then so be it.

 

With no information supplied I fail to see any MAJOR BENEFIT!

 

PS

I put the **** in, not PW, there was NO site editing of any of my posts, if you want to assume that is a profanity and the site edited it that is two incorrect assumptions, I don't think "MICK" would be happy with you suggesting his name was a profanity. Just shows how easily people can be led, like believing, LE cover is a MAJOR BENEFIT when given no facts!

 

PPS

For the record, I am NOT anti BASC and have been a member many years, if you would like to further continue this discussion feel free to PM me.

 

ATB!

Edited January 5, 2014 by Dekers

[David BASC]

Ta Dekers

 

As to how many will benefit - well I hope ALL will benefit.

 

As to cost, as I say its not within my authority to disclose the exact cost of the premium, but the total cost of the members insurance package will be published in the annual accounts.

 

I accept that the number of claims on the policy will not run to 100's per year, and will almost certainly be lower than the number of claims we get on annual average on the public liability policy, which is 53 by the way; but I would hope the indirect benefit of this increased legal activity on BASC's part, together with the time this will free up for our firearms team to tackle these issues on a strategic as well as constabulary level by making licencing teams stick to the HO guidance (not withstanding the muck up on ammunition - see other thread) will help all of us.

 

And I for one am sure you are not anti BASC, how can you be as a long standing member

 

David

[mossberg-operator]

Dear David! Just a suggestion about the new discounts in certain shops for BASC members. Great! However can simplify it, pls? Too complicated to remember it every time. Would it be better to have a magnetic stripe on BASC member card, swipe it when You pay anywhere and get an instant discount promoting BASC membership? Like x% off at the till. My present employer runs a similar scheme, for example I can visit National Heritage sites for free just showing the card... I know it is not easy to do this, but please consider it! Thx!