Size 7.5 for decoyed pigeons?

[sitsinhedges]

What's this lack of respect stuff? And neither has cost anything to do with this. It's becoming my impression that I'd be more likely to secure quick kills with the better pattern afforded by smaller shot- that's the direction my reading is sending me at any rate. My question arises from a desire to avoid spending a lot of money on shells which merely wound.

Why do you want to limit yourself when a proper pigeon cartridge will give you maximum opportunity to get a bag and take the memorable shots or if the birds aren't committing fully and you have to take marginal shots etc etc.

[fenboy]

The simple fact is even a 7.5 load will be capable of killing pigeon as far as most competent shooters would wish to shoot , if you are as good as George Digweed and are capable of shooting them consistently at 70-80 yards then there may just be an argument that bigger shot will do a better job

But for us mere mortals 7.5s will kill well enough to 50 yards , if you are capable of putting it in the right place

You only have to watch some of the footage put up by Motty to see what a decent shot can do with 7.5s

[PAV331]

Why do you want to limit yourself when a proper pigeon cartridge will give you maximum opportunity to get a bag and take the memorable shots or if the birds aren't committing fully and you have to take marginal shots etc etc.

Yep, I guarantee that as a novice uncertain about cartridge choice, you won't end up sitting in your hide with a slab of size 6 carts with pigeon load written all over the box thinking "dam...I wish I would of gone for the 7.5s designed for clay shooting"

[Hamster]

The idea that 6's let you take further shots when birds aren't decoying is at best flawed and as for smaller shots being disrespectful I couldn't disagree more. The idea is to kill them efficiently over decoys, smaller shot gives denser patterns and unless we're talking stupid shots at 70 yards, then 7.5's will kill more effectively than 6's at decoying ranges out to and beyond 40 yards.

 

Quarter choke and 6's at say 40 yards is a worse recipe for wounding than 7'5's because the latter will still have enough penetration and the benefit of numbers. I've shot pigeon for thirty years and always got on better with 7's than anything else and would honestly choose 7.5's over 6's over decoys. If roost shooting with a bit of choke then my preference may change to 6's.

[remmyman]

As far as I'm concerned far too many people when posting just resort to 'old school' attitudes and mantra. A lot of water has past under the cartridge making bridge since the days of the great Gough Thomas and co. were writing in the shooting press.

 

I've shot literally thousands of pigeon over my 30odd year shooting career using 7.5's, 6's and 5's. You can only kill something once and there is no such thing as 'deader than dead' . Give me any decent cartridge in the above sizes and I'll show you how they will all kill pigeon cleanly and consistently out to a 'genuine' 50yds. Yes I shoot tight chokes, ie 3/4 or full, which helps maintain pattern density at range, and yes I can shoot straight(most of the time ) but I couldn't do that if the cartridge wasn't up to the job!

 

Modern powders, wads, primers, cases and shot leave little room for improvement when assembled in the right package, and as any knowledgable shot will tell you, pattern will always fail before energy. After all You can hit a pigeon in the **** with a 4 or bigger and it wont be killed cleanly!!

 

The late, great Archie Coats even switched to 7's way back in the 50's in the quest for the most lethal/ affective combo!

 

In summary I would say simply this, once your marksmanship is up to scratch,choose any cartridge in any of the above sizes, use the appropiate choke for the range at which you will be shooting and you WILL kill pigeon or any other similar sized quarry eg partridges,humanely and consistently.

 

Regards remmyman

[wj939]

The respect argument is based on the idea that we all want to kill cleanly at what ever range we can consistently manage with our skill and equipment. The idea that larger shot gives longer range is substantiated in the fact it hits harder and delivers more energy to the target. If your happy to stick to 25 yard decoys then yes 7.5's might do the job in the right hands but it's not the correct tool for the job so to speak.

 

Over the thousands of cartridges I shoot a year at pigeons (very lucky) I have tried all manner of cartridges and can assure you that I, and I would expect the majority of others would likewise, have cleaner kills and a smaller number of pricked birds with 6's over clay loads. Plus picking fewer pellets out my pie is always welcome.

 

In answer to the original post: buy the game carts and use those for clays. I'd sooner chip clays than pepper pigeons and pheasant.

 

Cartridge manufacturers don't often get it wrong otherwise we'd be seeing clear pigeon 8's and 36 gram 7.5s for ducks and wildfowl on the basis of multiple strikes?

[Danoi99]

 

Cartridge manufacturers don't often get it wrong otherwise we'd be seeing clear pigeon 8's and 36 gram 7.5s for ducks and wildfowl on the basis of multiple strikes?

Very well put sir. I concur.

[motty]

The respect argument is based on the idea that we all want to kill cleanly at what ever range we can consistently manage with our skill and equipment. The idea that larger shot gives longer range is substantiated in the fact it hits harder and delivers more energy to the target. If your happy to stick to 25 yard decoys then yes 7.5's might do the job in the right hands but it's not the correct tool for the job so to speak.

 

Over the thousands of cartridges I shoot a year at pigeons (very lucky) I have tried all manner of cartridges and can assure you that I, and I would expect the majority of others would likewise, have cleaner kills and a smaller number of pricked birds with 6's over clay loads. Plus picking fewer pellets out my pie is always welcome.

 

In answer to the original post: buy the game carts and use those for clays. I'd sooner chip clays than pepper pigeons and pheasant.

 

Cartridge manufacturers don't often get it wrong otherwise we'd be seeing clear pigeon 8's and 36 gram 7.5s for ducks and wildfowl on the basis of multiple strikes?

The respect argument is absolute rubbish. 7.5 only good for 25 yards? Rubbish! I have said it time and again on this forum - a bigger shotsize will not guarantee less wounding! Pigeons are not hard to kill. Small shot does the job.

As far as I'm concerned far too many people when posting just resort to 'old school' attitudes and mantra. A lot of water has past under the cartridge making bridge since the days of the great Gough Thomas and co. were writing in the shooting press.

 

I've shot literally thousands of pigeon over my 30odd year shooting career using 7.5's, 6's and 5's. You can only kill something once and there is no such thing as 'deader than dead' . Give me any decent cartridge in the above sizes and I'll show you how they will all kill pigeon cleanly and consistently out to a 'genuine' 50yds. Yes I shoot tight chokes, ie 3/4 or full, which helps maintain pattern density at range, and yes I can shoot straight(most of the time ) but I couldn't do that if the cartridge wasn't up to the job!

 

Modern powders, wads, primers, cases and shot leave little room for improvement when assembled in the right package, and as any knowledgable shot will tell you, pattern will always fail before energy. After all You can hit a pigeon in the **** with a 4 or bigger and it wont be killed cleanly!!

 

The late, great Archie Coats even switched to 7's way back in the 50's in the quest for the most lethal/ affective combo!

 

In summary I would say simply this, once your marksmanship is up to scratch,choose any cartridge in any of the above sizes, use the appropiate choke for the range at which you will be shooting and you WILL kill pigeon or any other similar sized quarry eg partridges,humanely and consistently.

 

Regards remmyman

Good post.

[motty]

Sorry about topic that's likely to prove boring for an anyway experienced shooter but you could save me wasting some serious money. As a rookie, I'm proposing to bulk buy cartridges as follows:

 

2 3/4" 28gm (fibre) size 7.5 for decoyed pigeons. Improved Cylinder (skeet) choke.

 

For walking-up pigeons, pheasant, and for decoyed and flighting duck:

 

2 3/4" 32gm (fibre) size 6. Half choke.

 

For decoyed geese on Scottish farmland:

 

2 3/4" 42gm (fibre) size 3. And:

3" 63gm (plastic) size 2 Last two used with Remington 870 Express Super Magnum (3 1/2" chamber). Half choke.

 

I'm particularly concerned about the suitability of the size 7.5 shot.

 

I think this is probably a done-to-death topic but I would much appreciate any help with these specific combinations.

Will 63gm of lead fit in 3" shell? Surely you mean 3 1/2"?

[kent]

Well 7 1/2 are my preferred shell for walked up shooting with open choke. To relate an incident I was shooting Crows with 36 grm of number five and had depleted my stock so I got onto the bits and bobs I had in the house. Took one down with 46grm of number 1 blew half its chest off and still wounded it, took another at more distant range with a light load of 7 1/2 DRT in the air! Its were you put it then how good your gun choke patterns it that matters. Once the shot looses its energy you are shooting far to distant!

There is some talk here of such shot being used on Duck - that is not good! Especially in these crucial times, though over the deeks you don't need much in the way of shot size if you wait for them to commit with steel and I know of one guy who uses nothing but small steel shot

[Hamster]

Cartridge manufacturers don't often get it wrong otherwise we'd be seeing clear pigeon 8's and 36 gram 7.5s for ducks and wildfowl on the basis of multiple strikes?

 

They don't get it wrong for themselves , they load and market in the cheapest way possible to suit their pockets not what the market necessarily needs or wants. The late Archie Coates used 7's and few would have shot more pigeon than him, how come you can't get this shot size in the pigeon specific loads ? It's because it's easier to load 6's and be done. I have to order clay 7's to get my preferred load.

 

The 6's hit harder argument seems to forget the small matter of density you don't need to hit harder, you just need to hit the bird with 3 pellets or so at sensible range say up to 50 yards. I always find 5's lead to towered birds that need 300 yard walks to retrieve and when you hit them over shorter distances the bird ends up bruised and bloodied.

[The Sipe-ist]

The idea that 6's let you take further shots when birds aren't decoying is at best flawed and as for smaller shots being disrespectful I couldn't disagree more. The idea is to kill them efficiently over decoys, smaller shot gives denser patterns and unless we're talking stupid shots at 70 yards, then 7.5's will kill more effectively than 6's at decoying ranges out to and beyond 40 yards.

 

Quarter choke and 6's at say 40 yards is a worse recipe for wounding than 7'5's because the latter will still have enough penetration and the benefit of numbers. I've shot pigeon for thirty years and always got on better with 7's than anything else and would honestly choose 7.5's over 6's over decoys. If roost shooting with a bit of choke then my preference may change to 6's.

I am intrigued, please expand on why you would change to 6 shot for roosting?

[Hamster]

I am intrigued, please expand on why you would change to 6 shot for roosting?

 

On days when all your shots are likely to be taken at highish birds I put even tighter chokes in my gun to keep the pattern dense, as long as I have 32g or more 6's (which isn't very often) then the density is maintained to the sort of level I like.

 

I know some will find this difficult to believe but one of my best flighting fields is a chicken farm over run with rabbits in the summer. This time of year it produces unbelievable pigeon flighting and due to the steeply rising nature of the land some of the shots are at small dots in the sky, many are unshootable with any choke or shell combination. Anyways, time after time I've stood and shot Eley Superb 7 and 7.5's alongside 5's and 6's game shells here and the former are more productive even on these extreme ranges. I'm not saying the 6's don't kill but the smaller shot seems easier to shoot well with and the birds fold up or fall out of the sky every bit as good as if you centred them with a sparse load of 5's.

[Hamster]

I am intrigued, please expand on why you would change to 6 shot for roosting?

 

My stance against 6 shot is that many people will fire them through openly choked guns where the inferior density compared to smaller shot (even 6.5's are better) can lead to wounding. The same choke with 7.5 shot at sensible range which decoyed birds should be, will kill better, try it without prejudging it.

[tignme]

 

 

7.5s enough for me. Shot nothing else untill steel came along.

 

Last sunday shot flighting birds in windy conditions gusting up to 40 mph using 24 gram no 7s in STEEL. half choke. some birds dead in the air at 40 yds.

[matone]

7.5`s are actually English 7`s I believe.Given that pigeon cartridges are loaded with 6.5 shot by some,it`s unlikely that 7`s

will be unsuitable,indeed may be preferable in open chokes which the OP intended using.

[chacotawas]

The idea that 6's let you take further shots when birds aren't decoying is at best flawed and as for smaller shots being disrespectful I couldn't disagree more. The idea is to kill them efficiently over decoys, smaller shot gives denser patterns and unless we're talking stupid shots at 70 yards, then 7.5's will kill more effectively than 6's at decoying ranges out to and beyond 40 yards.

 

Quarter choke and 6's at say 40 yards is a worse recipe for wounding than 7'5's because the latter will still have enough penetration and the benefit of numbers. I've shot pigeon for thirty years and always got on better with 7's than anything else and would honestly choose 7.5's over 6's over decoys. If roost shooting with a bit of choke then my preference may change to 6's.

That is exactly what I was thinking, and where, as I say, my reading was taking me. But I wanted once again to get input from practical experience. Thanks for your advice everybody. Very helpful.

 

Will 63gm of lead fit in 3" shell? Surely you mean 3 1/2"?

 

Yes indeed, I meant 3 1/2. Thanks. It's a 3 1/2 chambered gun.

Edited December 24, 2013 by chacotawas

[PhilR]

 

7.5`s are actually English 7`s I believe.Given that pigeon cartridges are loaded with 6.5 shot by some,it`s unlikely that 7`s

will be unsuitable,indeed may be preferable in open chokes which the OP intended using.[/quote

]

I think you'll find cartridges from British companies will be in English sizes. Foreign cartridges marked as 7.5 are likely to be English 7. However Fiocchi load cartridges specifically for our market and indicated shot size matches our sizes. Check out their website for more info.

Best to go on the physical size of the shot in mm to know truely what you're shooting.

[poontang]

 

 

Best to go on the physical size of the shot in mm to know truely what you're shooting.

 

Totally agree with the above. It would save a whole lot of hassle if manufacturers simply printed the actual shot size on cases.

[chacotawas]

Thanks folks. I wish you and yours a very happy Christmas.