demonwolf444 Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Well i bought an antique muzzle loader.... but i bought it too quickly and on inspecting the gun there are several things I'm not happy with. Let me say first that the gun is held as a Section 58 piece, and there is no intention of firing it or trying to fire it until it is on ticket. The stock has snapped at the wrist and has been repaired by attaching steel plates over the broken area, it looks sound, but there is plenty of flex in it and in short I'm not convinced it will stand up to much, the ram rod is missing the brass cap that is screwed over the worm and therefore is slightly too short, on removing the lock plates the wood is completely oil soaked and there are signs of pinned repairs, too much wood has been removed around here and this has weakened the stock, there are also a few chips around the trigger guard in in letting which have been filled with light modern filler, in short the stock is pig ugly. Closely inspecting the metal work the locks are sound, and very clean the barrels are sound and i am sure they will stand up to some more use yet however the rear trigger has been brazed where it has previously snapped which would like to repair by welding, and on close inspection of the hammers it seems they have both snapped been brazed and are snapping again, indeed one has just done so . This has lead me to decide the gun is really not my cup of tea. My fetish is for named english pieces, however while I'm fairly sure its english, its not named, and its in a bit of a state. The one thing this gun has going for it is the barrels and when i am finished i will be taking measurements of the barrels and will remotely fire a double charged load through each once its on ticket to test them out, they appear visually fine and look to have plenty left in them so i would have thought they will be just fine. We will see. I have never restocked a muzzle loading gun, however at least this time i have a stock to copy from I should be able to use the original to take exact measurements, at least that's the hope. Thought i would do another thread so you all can praise my success and laugh at inevitable failures. By the end of it i may even like the gun a little more. I am sure there will be people who will slate me for "ruining a piece of history" but at the end of the day i say guns were built to be enjoyed, and there is no point in preserving that what can't be enjoyed. Every time you start a project like this you give a gun a new bit or history and a new lease of life. Most people would scrap this. Its probably quite a nice bit of wood, which is a shame. Barrels. Stock Stock Repair Repair. I have now cut a blank using the original as a template. The blank is cut similar to the one from the linsley brother double i restocked, so i don't know what the grain is like, clean and plain is my suspicion, it appears to have a lighter area of wood . The blank does have some serious wood worm in it so in this picture the gun has been drenched in cuprinol complete wood treatment " low odour" ( still stinks ) I'll keep it drenched over night and again when i go to sleep, I'll do it again when i wake up and hopefully be good to start on it tomorrow evening. I'll keep you posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
double10 Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 looking forward to this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Will certainly be a learning curve again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Stripped down the lock plates for closer inspection. When i begin inletting the lock plates i will start by just inletting the lock plates, and slowly add components removing just enough wood to allow the components to move freely. One lock stripped down to the basic components. Lock plate. Tumbler. Main spring. Sear. Sear spring. You can see the components and plates are in fairly good condition for the age, in this picture you can see however that the metal work around the one of the screw holes ( right ) has snapped off, this should be repaired as not doing so puts increased pressure on the threads of the screw which holds the sear in position. From inspection i can also see that a sear has been replaced, and that the parts have been polished at some point. On polishing parts i was always told that to prevent creating a weak spot on a V spring you should polish them length ways, not across the width of the spring. These springs have been polished across the spring. Interestingly one sear spring has cracked length ways, this should really be replaced, however springs from locks like this now have to be made from scratch out of flat spring stock, i do not have the equipment to attempt to do this, the spring remains sound though slightly weakened by the crack, I may well have this replaced at some point however it is unlikely so long as it holds up. One one lock plate on the inside we can still see the original finish, the faint colors are traces of color case hardening, which was a process of carbonizing ( sp? ) mild steel to give it a hard outer surface with a softer more flexible inner core, the result of this process leaves behind colors of reds blue's browns and yellows on the surface of the steel. If had the equipment i may try and re color certain parts, however its not as straight forward a technique as it first seems. I have the stock blank laid out ready to begin inletting, the top tang has been traced, lines drawn where the initial contact points are along the barrels. I am still trying to dry the piece out as it is still saturated with wood worm treatment before i start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Excellent stuff again, I'll be looking forward to the updates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Been cutting the channels out for the barrels so sit in this evening, just shallow grooves with the router i'll finish them up by hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Rough wood to metal fit is not to bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Hi So good that your taking this on realy looking forward to seeing it on rout to firing All the best Of ( if you have measurement of leaf spring i have a few in spares box send pm ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshwarrior Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 PM sent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
la bala Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 interesting pics and post, will look forward to more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunnerbob Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Cracking thread this.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Thanks Welsh ( Again ) Started by inletting the top tang, used a variation of the sooting method by just using water colour black paint, with a bit of practice you can trace the part to be inlet slightly undersize then slowly let it in, the slower you go with this the better fit you get. With the top tang in - its not complete but certainly getting there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted January 16, 2014 Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 Did you use the fence on the router and just a bullnose cutter to do the barrel channel? I'm going to try and do a thumbhole stock in Elm for my .22 when it totally dry, trees been dead about 20 years but it's only been stored in a dutch barn so not dry dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) The barrel channels was just done with a 22mm U shaped plunge cutter, i could only get at half of it, i used an edge attached to the router, i know nothing about routers, i just about know where the on button is to be honest. I only did half with the router, i have spent about four hours now in the work shop fitting by hand, sooting the barrels, sooting the top tang, and slowly letting everything in so it all fits together as it should with chisels removing the high spots. Top tang, the lock plates and the barrels all fit together at different angles, so if one is out now it will cause me grief later, the sooting method is slow, but its accurate, and you can get it "nearly perfect" with enough patience. Edited January 16, 2014 by demonwolf444 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2014 This is the barrel channels, the ram rod channels, and the barrel key hole inletting. Aside from half of the barrel channel this was all done by hand with chisels, and even the bits cut with the router needed fitting. From the side. From the end. Steaming away at the wood work, the lock plates are not going to be easy, nor the lock components, especially since i only have flat bladed chisels.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted January 17, 2014 Report Share Posted January 17, 2014 Looking forward to seeing how this turns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted January 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Okay had a practice at inletting the lock plates, the wood of the blank is oversize meaning the lock plates need about 2.5-3mm excess wood around them. I have sort of ( in my mind ) Cheated here. To save time i drew around the lock plates ( i've only done one so far ) and put a 2mm margin inside the line, i took the router and the smallest circular cutter and free hand roughed it out. The lock plate still needs fitting properly but i have saved my self a lot of time using the router. I need to get some more wick for my little oil lamp to soot the plates in properly, and also do the other plate. Then i just have the easy task of inletting all the lock components in. ( ha ) ( pictures coming soon ) I have also inletted in the trigger plate, the trigger plate in this muzzle loader is just a piece of mild steel with two slots cut in it, so it was a an easy straight cut. The triggers themselves actually pivot in the wood, and i will be required to cut two slots in the wood about 1.5mm wide, about an 25mm long, and deep enough for the triggers to ride in, if anyone has any advice on cutting the slots let me know as I'm all at sea. ( ill get a picture up of the slots on the original.) I also copied a method for drilling the tang screw i saw on a video tour of the perdesoli factory that is new to me. Its a remarkably simple technique that allows you to drill holes perfectly. Firstly you center punch where you want to drill in and where you want it to come out, next you take the drill bit you want to use, and just start the hole enough to make a bevel on both sides. Next you mount the drill bit in a drill press. On the bed of the drill press you mount a bolt pointing vertically upwards towards the drill bit, its best to grind a bevel on to the bolt. You true up the bolt and the drill bit so that the point of the drill bit bevel touches the point of the bolt bevel. Sitting one of the bevel cut holes on the bolt bevel, you enter the drill bit through the other bevel, as the two are lined up perfectly your hole will come out perfectly. ( pictures coming soon. ) If i had known this when i was doing the boxlock stock it would have literally saved me hours of pain and frustration trying to measure angles of bolt holes, and trying to get everything perfectly level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted January 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 Trigger plate going in ( you can see the beveled hole i have made prior to drilling the hole ) Trigger plate in ( you can see the two slots i am talking about ) i need to cut matching slots into the wood. Tang bolt has been installed in this image. Lock plate roughed out with the router. The lock plate is still oversize to the inletting but i will do it properly when i have some more wick. All parts integrate together as in any other shotgun with a series of dovetails and bevels. The top tang is secured with the tang bolt through the trigger plate. The barrels lock into the top tang by two barrel hooks, and the face of the rear of the barrels and the top tang meet flush up against each other when hooked in. The barrels have a groove cut in to which the lock plates locate into which allows for up and down positioning, and the left to right positioning is dictated by an angle at which the lock plates meet the top tang. A lot can go wrong by removing to much wood without really careful consideration. One thing i am really worried about is cutting the slots for the trigger blades, my idea so far involves drilling a line of 1mm holes and cutting out with a knife. The problem comes in that the slots must be cut perfectly to support the trigger blades to they get good contact in respect to the sears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Outstanding work James. Mighty impressed....no way could I do this! Best wishes with it. Nice barrels too and it is a shame about the original stock! Underdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manton Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Your stock appears to be going well but your description and pictures of the gun suggest that it has never been a quality product. The barrels are one of the cheapest types of damascus iron, note the width of the rods it was made from. William Greener would suggest the lowest grade which could be used with any safety.I suspect that the hammers are cast or a very low grade of iron which is why they have broken . Replacement parts are available from Edward J Blackely or Peter Dyson at about £18 .00 each. The reason I am putting forward this view is that I would be very wary of attempting to fire this gun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtaylor Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Do they need to be slots for the trigger plate or could you just hollow out between the slots as well? If not then I think drilling and cleaning out with a scalpel is probably the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted January 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 (edited) Your stock appears to be going well but your description and pictures of the gun suggest that it has never been a quality product. The barrels are one of the cheapest types of damascus iron, note the width of the rods it was made from. William Greener would suggest the lowest grade which could be used with any safety.I suspect that the hammers are cast or a very low grade of iron which is why they have broken . Replacement parts are available from Edward J Blackely or Peter Dyson at about £18 .00 each. The reason I am putting forward this view is that I would be very wary of attempting to fire this gun. Yes certainly it is a low grade gun however the barrels appear to to be fairly thick walled. My testing procedure in my head so far is thus. ( once on ticket ) Create a clamp out of hay bales that will securely hold the gun. Take caliper measurements of the barrels all along their length. Load the gun with 50:50 volume loads. Start with light loads. Look for any deformation or changes in measurements. Slowly build up to a double charged load. If the barrels can sustain the pressure of a double charged load with no change in measurement or deformation i am willing to trust that they will handle light 50:50 loads. ( firing will be remote by a scientifically long piece of cord with me the other side of a wall. I will place only essential parts in the original stock for the testing, and therefor if they blow up during testing hopefully some parts will be salvageable and only the barrels will be damaged. If and when this happens, i will look into replacing the barrels. ( Yeh there is a plan ha ) I appreciate your concern however but be assured that i do realize this could go terribly wrong. Yes most definately the hammers were cast iron and low quality! Do they need to be slots for the trigger plate or could you just hollow out between the slots as well? If not then I think drilling and cleaning out with a scalpel is probably the way to go. Yes they need to be two separate slots, thinking drilling and then scalpel as well Thank you! Edited January 19, 2014 by demonwolf444 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 I understand some bungie the gun to an old tyre! U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old farrier Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) Do they need to be slots for the trigger plate or could you just hollow out between the slots as well? If not then I think drilling and cleaning out with a scalpel is probably the way to go.[/quote Hi Just a alternate possibility drill small hole and use a fret saw or possibly a jigsaw blade ( buy hand ) all the best Of ] Sorry ment broken fretsaw blade I assume slot dosent go totally through stock Edited January 20, 2014 by Old farrier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demonwolf444 Posted January 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2014 No its about an inch deep ( the slots ) don't worry i'll film the testing Not done much so far this week. Other stocks needed to be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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