Looking for a new pup

[Mark L]

Hi all, I'm in the proses of looking for a new pup as a family pet and to train as a gun dog.

 

I have heart set on a ess as does the wife

 

At the moment I have a old collie x lab bitch she is easy going and enjoys having other dogs about to play with so I'm confident she will be good with a pup about

 

We both have a fair bit of free time to walk and train a new pup, and there is always someone in the house day and night as I no a ess needs plenty of exercise

 

I'm just wondering what's the best place to start looking for a pup and any tips or advise on what to look out for and what to try and avoid .?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Regards Mark

[kent]

Avoid heavy trial bred dogs. Also avoid pet lines. Try and find a good working bitch that spends most of the season picking up or out rabbiting and walking up pheasants for its owner that's been put to a good Ftch with just a scattering of red though the 5 generation. This is unless your looking for a competitive dog yourself. Buy in England were we can still dock working dogs as spaniels need it imo

[Mark L]

Hi Kent thanks for the advice. Im planing on buying in England for that very reason . Where would you recommend the best place is to look for good working dog? Am I better going to a specific breeder ?

 

 

Regards mark

[kent]

It don't matter if the bitch is good and the pups are well reared. Fact is a lot of the names sell pups for others and bang £150 on top because they get asked. Cant help much with spanners not my thing and the breeders I do know run hot ones

[Bazooka]

Do not be affraid of red in any springer spaniel pedigree.Bad training makes bad dogs.Not red in their pedigrees

[WelshAndy]

I bought my black lab through the preloved website, when you register with them it brings up adverts close to your area. We took a gamble buying not knowing the breeding only knowing the mother was chocolate and the father did some picking up. Turns out the fathers pedigree is full of red names and with me putting in the time training I've got a decent dog .

 

As bazooka says 'bad training makes bad dogs'

 

All the best with your search

[kent]

Do not be affraid of red in any springer spaniel pedigree.Bad training makes bad dogs.Not red in their pedigrees

 

I am talking heavy amounts of red which indicate full on trial breeding, its like giving a Porche to a 17year old and its a lot of stress bobbing over speed bumps and driving up rough tracks and round urban car parks in any full on sportscar (very nice on the open road non the less). First time shooting dog good steady away picking up and shooting dogs with a sprinkle of red in there is a good an idea as buying your 17 year old a small family type car, 200 mph car and it will likely end badly

[cpaulc]

I found our ESS on e-pups or pets for homes. She came from just a nice family home with no direct working parents, just solid breeding lines with some red but not loads. In my opinion, if your just after a family pet who can work too then I wouldn't get too bogged down in the details.

[Bazooka]

 

I am talking heavy amounts of red which indicate full on trial breeding, its like giving a Porche to a 17year old and its a lot of stress bobbing over speed bumps and driving up rough tracks and round urban car parks in any full on sportscar (very nice on the open road non the less). First time shooting dog good steady away picking up and shooting dogs with a sprinkle of red in there is a good an idea as buying your 17 year old a small family type car, 200 mph car and it will likely end badly

There are more black names on heavy trial bred ESS pedigrees than there are red ones.

[kent]

There are more black names on heavy trial bred ESS pedigrees than there are red ones.

yes, its quite common to breed dogs for trials from non proven parents, like race horses your better just finding a few old nags and working with what you end up with as it adds to the buzz when you win the grand national with the results of getting Bessy seen to by old Ned. To make it clear to others red denotes the awards not the name

[Bazooka]

yes, its quite common to breed dogs for trials from non proven parents, like race horses your better just finding a few old nags and working with what you end up with as it adds to the buzz when you win the grand national with the results of getting Bessy seen to by old Ned. To make it clear to others red denotes the awards not the name

 

so what is it you are suggesting the orig poster does? Go for red in the pedigree or go for black.You said earlier just a splattering of red as this red indicates heavy trial breeding so only a splattering in the pedigree is best.Now you are saying the black names in the pedigree are likely to be nags from non proven parents???

 

The last bit of your above statement is totally wrong Kent. Red denotes Field Trial Champion status only, not awards.So those names in black,or those "nags" as you put it,could in fact all be field trial award winners or field trial winners themselves.

[cocker boy]

Buy the very best you can afford. Go to the guys that win on a regular basis.

[kent]

A spattering is just that, a plastering is another matter. I use awards loosely and again red loosely I think 95% know what I mean without having to communicate with you further.

 

To the OP,

Working bitches with red mainly (though not always exclusively) on the male side. Ask the breeder why he chose the stud, if they say words to the effect of "coz its the top dog in the country" walk away no real further thought has passed into the selection and all the breeder is likely to know is what it has won and what the fee was

[Bazooka]

A spattering is just that, a plastering is another matter. I use awards loosely and again red loosely I think 95% know what I mean without having to communicate with you further.

 

To the OP,

Working bitches with red mainly (though not always exclusively) on the male side. Ask the breeder why he chose the stud, if they say words to the effect of "coz its the top dog in the country" walk away no real further thought has passed into the selection and all the breeder is likely to know is what it has won and what the fee was

So you are "loosley" saying avoid red? That means go for pedigrees with more black in them? Sorry if you feel I'm having a war with you over this but I'm not even sure you know what you mean. I understand your reluctance to enter into a debate over it. Just thought the OP deserved an explaination and clarification.

 

Black throughout, with little or no red at all, does not necessarily mean a weaker trialling pedigree. How you then start working out the decent dogs in black from one another is another matter. Red one's tell you a lot more of what you should really be wanting to know.

 

Regarding the last bit I would suggest that any breeder with a FTCh (red) bitch, looking to breed from her, will 100% have done his upmost to make sure to the best of his knowledge and selecting ability, that the stud he puts over his bitch will compliment her and her pups.Your Joe average's shooting bitch? Hmmm , normally stud price dictates and faults are sometimes overlooked.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Bazooka

[Mark L]

Thanks for the replays, although I don't really understand the red/black part ?

[al4x]

The best advice is ignore kent and there are some who know what they are talking about. The last post on nags is complete horse poop worse than his usual tripe.

 

At the level you are looking at and with a ESS try and get local recommendations first and see who you know with one you like and work from there. That's before you start looking at the more common breeders who trial. You may not want the hottest dog you can get more likely an honest one that will be easy to live with and shoot with. The ideal is a local keeper or picker up, certainly round here they generally are pretty good at picking the dogs they breed with as they take a pride in the offspring and will use them for work so they want a decent dog.

Edited April 25, 2014 by al4x

[kent]

Thanks for the replays, although I don't really understand the red/black part ?

 

I don't know why some don't understand what I am saying here. A gundog can be over bred just like a race horse too much of a good thing can be too hard to handle and might not even make the fastest ride (like the Porche with a teenager at the wheel it will likely end up wrapped around a lamppost if pushed). You will actually struggle to find a working line without a few top trial dogs in it (Red is used to denote FTch and also other awards at times) . There are a total of 30 animals on a pedigree that goes back to GT,GT Grandparents, the male line is at the top and the females are all below.

The top line will normally contain the most red for instance on my own lab there are 9 ftch and one ftw on the male side and 3 ftch and 2 ftw on the female. This makes up half the lineage in total. The other dogs have all been regular shooting and picking up dogs and this I believe creates a steadying influence. In theory if you took all the fastest horses and bred them you should produce a winner but it just don't work like that and therein lies the skill of the breeder in selecting. Just like the race horse is no novice ride likewise the dog.

Remember Trials test part of the dog and at no stage does the handler do the shooting (its pure dog work). So what you have is a very experienced handler who diverts his whole attention to the dog in order for it to show its best.

[Bazooka]

Thanks for the replays, although I don't really understand the red/black part ?

The parents will normally have pedigree certificates or at least pedigree (Kennel Club) names.If the pedigree's for both are available to see from the breeder both, more times than not,will have a mixture of names in red and black throughout the 5 generations shown on the pedigree certificate.A family tree.The names in red (only on the larger certificates) will be dogs or bitches that have won two open field trials in the UK they gain the title FTCh-Field Trial Champion.It is likely that many of the names in black ( non FTCh's) will also have had some connection with trialling even if it is through their parents or gran parents.Some will have won trials others maybe only won placed awards.

 

Just to add.A normal A4 KC pedigree certificate showing the 5 generations will have all the names in black but preceding each champion will be the letters (in black) FT CH.

Edited April 25, 2014 by Bazooka

[kent]

So you are "loosley" saying avoid red? That means go for pedigrees with more black in them? Sorry if you feel I'm having a war with you over this but I'm not even sure you know what you mean. I understand your reluctance to enter into a debate over it. Just thought the OP deserved an explaination and clarification.

 

Black throughout, with little or no red at all, does not necessarily mean a weaker trialling pedigree. How you then start working out the decent dogs in black from one another is another matter. Red one's tell you a lot more of what you should really be wanting to know.

 

Regarding the last bit I would suggest that any breeder with a FTCh (red) bitch, looking to breed from her, will 100% have done his upmost to make sure to the best of his knowledge and selecting ability, that the stud he puts over his bitch will compliment her and her pups.Your Joe average's shooting bitch? Hmmm , normally stud price dictates and faults are sometimes overlooked.

 

I don't know why your not reading what I state as it is written, if its not clear after my last point pm me as I can clarify my point no further.

[Cranfield]

Lets keep the comments polite and not rubbish other peoples opinions, they are entitled to them.

 

Having owned two excellent springers in my lifetime, I would not be put off by FTCH's in the pedigree (I even had Hales Smut in one of mine).

Both my bitches were bought as pups and trained by a professional trainer, at intermittent boarded sessions at his kennels.

They were quality working dogs and pets and enjoyed active working lives.

[Bazooka]

 

I don't know why some don't understand what I am saying here. A gundog can be over bred just like a race horse too much of a good thing can be too hard to handle and might not even make the fastest ride (like the Porche with a teenager at the wheel it will likely end up wrapped around a lamppost if pushed). You will actually struggle to find a working line without a few top trial dogs in it (Red is used to denote FTch and also other awards at times) . There are a total of 30 animals on a pedigree that goes back to GT,GT Grandparents, the male line is at the top and the females are all below.

The top line will normally contain the most red for instance on my own lab there are 9 ftch and one ftw on the male side and 3 ftch and 2 ftw on the female. This makes up half the lineage in total. The other dogs have all been regular shooting and picking up dogs and this I believe creates a steadying influence. In theory if you took all the fastest horses and bred them you should produce a winner but it just don't work like that and therein lies the skill of the breeder in selecting. Just like the race horse is no novice ride likewise the dog.

Remember Trials test part of the dog and at no stage does the handler do the shooting (its pure dog work). So what you have is a very experienced handler who diverts his whole attention to the dog in order for it to show its best.

True. But you will also have top trialling dogs in there in black.So what is your point?

 

The Kennel Club only recognises FTCh status with regards to red and awards. An irish KC dog in the pedigree will have (IKC), in black, after it's name.Field trial winners (FTW) will not be noted on a true KC pedigree certificate.And on every pedigree certificate I own there are 63 dogs and bitches.Not 30. The only other time you would see red on a pedigree is if there were show bred lines (SHCH) in the pedigree, but the question was specifically regarding "heavy trialling bred dogs"

Edited April 25, 2014 by Bazooka

[kent]

This is crazy read what I actually wrote. , FtCH does not detract from a dogs pedigree (indeed the reverse normally) over use of trail blood makes a hotter dog so don't over cook it is all I am suggesting for a first time gundog especially one marked on hunting and ground coverage / speed. The sire of my current dog placed 2nd and 3rd in the ret champs and there are more than a few others of similar, so I should be a big fat hypocrite to take the view that's being presented by others here

 

Bazoka the numbers relate to exactly as I say GT, GT grand parents (8 top 8 bottom) to the Pups sire and dam. the litter mates or animals further back mean little to me.

 

Full trial bred dogs or for those who wish to run trials my opinion, it might not be yours. If you were buying an intentionally bred gundog then chances are you couldn't avoid it outside of privately bred dogs for a very specific purpose which will mostly not get advertised but taken up by mates and contacts of the owner

[Bazooka]

Avoid heavy trial bred dogs. Also avoid pet lines. Try and find a good working bitch that spends most of the season picking up or out rabbiting and walking up pheasants for its owner that's been put to a good Ftch with just a scattering of red though the 5 generation. This is unless your looking for a competitive dog yourself. Buy in England were we can still dock working dogs as spaniels need it imo

Your back tracking a bit

I hear you loud and clear Kent.But you are wrong to suggest that only red indicates heavy trial breeding.Completely wrong.The "spattering of red" as you suggest to look for is not only bad advice but completely 100% wrong.Heavy trial breeding is prominent in pedigrees with dog that are not marked in red.Black names on a pedigree do not indicate a lack of heavy trial breeding.Quite the contrary actually in many cases.

[gazbev]

Yup, I can only speak as far as Springers are concerned but I would go for a recommended breeder,there are a lot of breeders that will sell you anything but a lot more that will sell you what you need which will be from easily trainable steady parents,it's no guarantee of course it's still a lottery what temperament the dog will end up with but the breeders know their dogs inside out, their reputation relies on it.

 

Some breeders breed bigger dogs for the shooter in mind with more colour rather than smaller flashy looking dogs that are sometimes bred with trials in mind, a good breeder will steer you away from these because they can be too hot for a novice..

 

As above, with regards to pedigree,find a good breeder and tell him or her what you need.

[Mark L]

Does anyone have any recommendations of a good reliable breeder ?