Inclusion of the Greylag Goose onto the General License

[David BASC]

Kes, as it reads on the NE website consultation document:

 

'We(Natural England) are seeking evidence of the need for the continued inclusion of a number of species on the agricultural damage and conservation General Licences. These species are jackdaw, jay and collared dove (note the collared dove is currently listed on the agricultural damage General Licence, but not the conservation General Licence). All these species have a good conservation status, with stable or increasing populations and all are Green listed under Birds of Conservation Concern. However to justify their inclusion on the General Licences we need to be satisfied that the severity and frequency with which they cause problems justifies routine licensed action.'

 

So NE are asking for evidence that they should stay on the GL, BASC strongly supports the continuation on GL because ,as you rightly say, they are a significant problem,

 

David

[The Croc]

David your talking about clubs getting management plans with farmers, all well and good if nobody already shoots on his ground, nearly all the ground here is shot by someone else, the reply from 99. 9 % of the farmers is " sorry someone else already has the shooting here, been shooting here for years"

So how do you propose we" get" the shooting on ground that is already taken so that " we" can mange the geese?

 

Brian

[David BASC]

Evening Croc

 

I fully understand your point.

 

What I would do is this, I would work with my fellow club members and as many other contacts as I could uncover to find out where the geese were feeding. I would then contact the farmers who as you say may well have a shooting tenant already, and would ask them what if anything they did or indeed needed to do to control geese hitting their crops. If geese were being seen as a problem and assuming they already have a shooting tenant I would ask to be put in contact with them. When I met with them I would discuss the goose situation and try to agree with them a management plan to help protect the crops but without over shooting the geese.

 

David

[Kes]

Kes, as it reads on the NE website consultation document:

 

'We(Natural England) are seeking evidence of the need for the continued inclusion of a number of species on the agricultural damage and conservation General Licences. These species are jackdaw, jay and collared dove (note the collared dove is currently listed on the agricultural damage General Licence, but not the conservation General Licence). All these species have a good conservation status, with stable or increasing populations and all are Green listed under Birds of Conservation Concern. However to justify their inclusion on the General Licences we need to be satisfied that the severity and frequency with which they cause problems justifies routine licensed action.'

 

So NE are asking for evidence that they should stay on the GL, BASC strongly supports the continuation on GL because ,as you rightly say, they are a significant problem, view

 

David

David, Thanks for that but where is the evidence to push Greylags onto the GL? They (NE) must have the evidence for the contrary view of Jackdaws which have ALWAYS, been on GL.and increasing in numbers. Arent they supposed to (and duty bound) to find that out before they propose what can only be described as a simplistic, naive view ? They should know shouldn't they or have Jackdaws changed their feeding habits?

In moving from the GL to SL a major crop predator like the Jackdaw why can they surmise that it no longer (after years and years on GL be less of a problem - have you seen the evidence. ? So much of this is driven by something which is not visible. The collared Dove is more recently established in numbers and spreading and yet they suggest they need to manage the Indian House Crow because it MAY pose a future problem. Dont you have doubts about their motives ?

Don't answer, because I know you will have to defend what is seemingly indefensible and there is the nub of it, Why therefore is BASC supporting NE on Greylags?

Evening Croc

 

I fully understand your point.

 

What I would do is this, I would work with my fellow club members and as many other contacts as I could uncover to find out where the geese were feeding. I would then contact the farmers who as you say may well have a shooting tenant already, and would ask them what if anything they did or indeed needed to do to control geese hitting their crops. If geese were being seen as a problem and assuming they already have a shooting tenant I would ask to be put in contact with them. When I met with them I would discuss the goose situation and try to agree with them a management plan to help protect the crops but without over shooting the geese.

 

David

Stable door David, opened by BASC.

[The Croc]

Thank you David

I would lay odds that IF we ever got to speak to the shooting tenant, theyre reply would be along the lines of, "they're pests they're a on the GL we'll shoot them if we want to, what concern is it of yours"

Which is exactly what has happened with Canada's on 2 clubs I know of

Brian

[motty]

Thank you David

I would lay odds that IF we ever got to speak to the shooting tenant, theyre reply would be along the lines of, "they're pests they're a on the GL we'll shoot them if we want to, what concern is it of yours"

Which is exactly what has happened with Canada's on 2 clubs I know of

Brian

Precisely! There is no way that anyone who wants to kill these geese all year round, is going to even enter into a discussion about having to share the privilege with anyone else.

 

Another point, why would a farmer be interested in a Wildfowling club coming onto his land when he lives maybe 30 miles inland? There seems to be an assumption here that all of the greylags in this country reside by the coast.

[Terry P]

I think previous posts by others show clearly that this sort of managed control is already going on within many clubs, and indeed beyond, there was a very good pragmatic post from a forum member who currently controls geese on farmland for example, and I have simply offered help to expand this, regardless of whether greylags go onto the GL or not.

 

Terry, as I have pointed out, its NE policy that as a species that is currently controlled under the Individual licence is not under threat, and licences are being issued almost without exception, its NE's policy to move them to General licence.

 

David

David it maybe NE's policy to put greylag on the GL, it should not be BASC's. Can you tell me exactly why BASC are in favour of the Greylag being put on the GL. What reasons did council give.

[David BASC]

Kes, as you probably know NE review the GL regularly. With regard to Jackdaws etc which have been on the GL for a while they are, as far as I know simply reviewing the situation for these species to confirm there is still a need for them to be on the GL. As far as I am aware there is no evidence to move them from the GL to an Individual licence.

 

As to farms with goose problems (or not) as has been posted by other wildfowling club members on here, managed control does happen on land they rent and in some cases on surrounding land, I would not be so naïve as to suggest its an easy and simple solution to expand this to other farms in other areas, its a suggested solution that I am willing to help clubs try to achieve by targeted advertising in the farming press.

 

Just so we are all singing from the same hymn sheet as it were, how far do greylags typically fly from their roosts to their feeding grounds? The papers I have read seem to suggest that although they will fly 10km or sometimes more to feed its typically 2-5km?

 

Terry, BASC councils reasoning and the background to it is, and has been on the BASC web site for many weeks

[Konnie]

David I am afraid you are now showing how totally out of touch you are with what happens, in the shooting world.

I am in a wildfowling club so at times wildfowler

I also control pests on farms

 

if geese need controlling on my patch I will do it pest control ( not that I would) if asked by a wildfowling to let them on they would be told to jog on.

 

Do YOU actually shoot would have a guess if you do its paid days

[Terry P]

I have read it David, maybe its just me but it does not say why BASC have agreed to put the greylag on the GL.

[David BASC]

Evening Konnie, Yes I do shoot, I have been shooting for over 35 years. I started off as an airgunner, moved to clays when I was in my early 20's and secured my first permission for live quarry shooting (rabbit and pigeon) when I was 26.

 

Most of my shooting is pigeon and pest control with two shooting clubs I am a member of, mainly with shotgun and occasionally air rifle.

 

No I don't only shoot paid days, in my entire shooting life I have taken a paid days shooting about 8 times, the last time was about 14 years ago in Cumbria where it was a walk and stand shoot , a nice mixed day with pheasant, grouse, teal, pigeon, hare and rabbit. Cost me about £150 as I recall.

 

I am sure, as a wildfowler you appreciate that geese, whether on the GL or not need to be respected, and if geese came onto land that you control I am sure you would not shoot them indiscriminately would you? So if a wildfowling club came to you, you would be very much on side with them and be happy to tell them that any geese on any land you look after would be respected and not over shot wouldn't, you? So the farmer is happy and the wildfowling club is happy.

 

Now I suspect, and correct me if I am wrong, but I get the inference from your post that you do pest control on several farms in your area? So in your area there are hundreds if not thousands (No idea what acreage you control) that is not going to be over shot for geese.

 

Taking that a step further, how may people like you are in other wildfowling clubs all over the UK that already have access to other land in their area where they can control the number of geese that are shot? Now lets think if each of these people could secure just one more farm each in the next 12 months with the help of BASC advertising in the farming press etc....

 

David

[David BASC]

Terry , I am sorry but all I can reiterate is what Council have said:

 

BASC recognises the potential for breeding feral greylag geese to cause serious crop damage. It therefore believes the proposal to add

greylag goose to general licence GL04 to prevent serious agricultural damage or disease as it applies to breeding feral greylag geese in

England is currently acceptable. However, BASC seeks confirmation that there will be no detrimental impact on migratory greylag and

that the breeding population of greylag geese will continue to be counted annually if this proposed change is made, and that their place

on the General Licence is reviewed after two seasons.

 

David

[Old farrier]

Is this a olive branch

Or

A Greek bearing gifts

 

Smoke and mirrors springs to mind

[David BASC]

Take it as it is, a genuine offer from me and an statement from Council that remained the same for several weeks

 

edited as I hit post before I finished my sentence!

Edited May 18, 2014 by David BASC

[Terry P]

So something only has to be a potential threat and it goes on the GL, can I ask how it was that BASC came to recognise this potential threat, and just how much of a potential threat is there for considerable damage to crops by greylags, when you consider the decreasing amount of Sl's being asked for.

[David BASC]

All background info is on our web page

[Bazooka Joe]

I understand what you are saying, but as I said earlier NE are issuing individual licences for greylag without opposition and when they get to the point where individual licences are going to be issued anyway, their view is to move that species onto the general licence.

 

 

 

"without opposition"....from who David.?

[Terry P]

All the back ground info that BASC were handed and never saw fit to question or look into. Still no answer as to why its going on the GL when SL requests are dropping.

[Conor O'Gorman]

All the back ground info that BASC were handed and never saw fit to question or look into. Still no answer as to why its going on the GL when SL requests are dropping.

 

Terry,

The background information referred to by David was prepared by BASC. In case you havent read it, it is here:

http://basc.org.uk/blog/media/consultations/english-general-licences-consultation-have-your-say/

Best wishes

Conor

[m3vert]

Evening Croc

 

I fully understand your point.

 

What I would do is this, I would work with my fellow club members and as many other contacts as I could uncover to find out where the geese were feeding. I would then contact the farmers who as you say may well have a shooting tenant already, and would ask them what if anything they did or indeed needed to do to control geese hitting their crops. If geese were being seen as a problem and assuming they already have a shooting tenant I would ask to be put in contact with them. When I met with them I would discuss the goose situation and try to agree with them a management plan to help protect the crops but without over shooting the geese.

 

David

David, what exactly do you think the farmers response will be to you and your well meaning BASC members when he is approached by a "goose guide" offering to pay him 200quid for a days goose shooting? I somehow think your kind offer of walking them off for free might be turned down rather quickly.

[motty]

My email to NE has been sent, for all the good it will do....

[islandgun]

My email to NE has been sent, for all the good it will do....

The reply I got was quote " thank you for your email" unquote it was an automatic reply I got the impression that they were distinctly worried

Edited May 19, 2014 by islandgun

[scolopax]

Yes, just sent in my response to NE and cc'd BASC.

 

As you may guess it was in summary supportive of no changes to the current status of Greylag and mallard

[David BASC]

Thank you and everyone else who has copied in their reply to BASC

[holloway]

WWT have responded to the consultation giving a good and reasoned reply as to why Greylag and Mallard should not go on the general license ,.It is exactly the sort of response i would have expected from BASC with their only concern the welfare of the wildfowl....... i must say it puts BASC to shame.