monkeyboots Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 It's fairly easy to understand really. For years the Nationalist people were treated as second class citizens, but they were smart enough to educate themselves as a means to end the oppression. When equality became more prevalent, the opportunities to go down peaceful conflict resolution paths presented themselves, and that is why we have power sharing in this democratic society. its turned full circle dancake republican terrorists getting bail from courts/prison for murder yet loyalist rioters getiing 2 years jail sumthing badly wrong there yes anyone caught rioting should be in jail but when republicans get bail for murder or letters to say they wont be done for crimes they did years ago its totaly unfair and its all down to the british goverment giving the ira/sinn feinn all they want so as the bombs dont start up again as much as i hate sinn feinn there is one thing i will give them credit for is they went to the peace talks and put forward their case on what the ira wanted what the nationlist people wanted and are now reaping the benfits of that where as the unionist parties went into talks just to better themselves money/power and did nothing for the loyalist people and this is now why there is so much tenison etc in loyalists places in n.ireland there wouldnt of been this problem if a loyalist party had of been in there speaking for them ie the pup or uprg or the udp as they where back then but the dup promised everything but delivered nothing for the people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 its turned full circle dancake republican terrorists getting bail from courts/prison for murder yet loyalist rioters getiing 2 years jail sumthing badly wrong there yes anyone caught rioting should be in jail but when republicans get bail for murder or letters to say they wont be done for crimes they did years ago its totaly unfair and its all down to the british goverment giving the ira/sinn feinn all they want so as the bombs dont start up again as much as i hate sinn feinn there is one thing i will give them credit for is they went to the peace talks and put forward their case on what the ira wanted what the nationlist people wanted and are now reaping the benfits of that where as the unionist parties went into talks just to better themselves money/power and did nothing for the loyalist people and this is now why there is so much tenison etc in loyalists places in n.ireland there wouldnt of been this problem if a loyalist party had of been in there speaking for them ie the pup or uprg or the udp as they where back then but the dup promised everything but delivered nothing for the people The DUP promised everything because they thought the status quo would remain. Their tunnel vision then has left them in an unenviable position at present. I'm no fan of them, and neither are a lot of the people they are supposed to represent. There are loads of stories on both sides of what you could deem to be great injustices when it comes to the courts. However we can't afford to lose sight of the bigger picture. The future can only be as good as we want it to be. It will take more than a few generations to iron this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truflex Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 The DUP promised everything because they thought the status quo would remain. Their tunnel vision then has left them in an unenviable position at present. I'm no fan of them, and neither are a lot of the people they are supposed to represent. There are loads of stories on both sides of what you could deem to be great injustices when it comes to the courts. However we can't afford to lose sight of the bigger picture. The future can only be as good as we want it to be. It will take more than a few generations to iron this out. The future will only stay bright as long as Republicans get what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ack-ack Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 I could talk all day about hutchinson, wright and stone, and the oppressive nature of unionist politics etc, and I suspect if I came onto this forum and started to slate these people I wouldn't last too long. Seems like double standards are acceptable here. All sides of the debate interest me and others I'm sure. The thread will only get locked if it starts getting nasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Peace? Your having a laugh. The paramilitaries on both sides are as active as they ever where. It isn't. And its debatable how much its got to do with politics either. They are all thugs and mobsters. Armed political struggle always descends into organised crime and when the political goal has been either been achieved or obviated by democratic process the criminal infrastructure never gets dismantled because it provides a living for too many people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodcock11 Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 I missed this post earlier when scanning through the thread. Very interesting, thanks for posting Robbie. I too have wondered if some kind of SA style Truth and Reconciliation approach involving all parties including the UK Government might have had a chance. The BBC ran a series of programmes based on just that back in 2005. It was chaired by Archbishop Desmond Tutu with two facilitators, one of whom is Professor of Conflict Resolution at Harvard. It was shown on BBC2 and was called Facing the Truth. Whilst it was not of course an "official" approach, the general consensus was that it worked well and I spoke with a number of those involved with it - both victims and perpetrators - loyalist and republican and also the army and the RUC. Whilst it was not of course the answer, I thought that it was an approach worth following and more likely to achieve something positive than these endless and very expensive enquiries.....For example, it is almost impossible to discover how much the Bloody Sunday enquiry [Lord Savile] cost but a few years ago..... The Tories' Northern Ireland spokesman, said the costs were "scandalous". He would be asking in Parliament why there had been such a dramatic increase. Tory figures say the inquiry has cost everyone in the country £6.64; the total of £400 million would have paid for [a year's salary for] more than 15,000 nurses, nearly 5,000 doctors and 11,000 policemen, or 13 extra Apache helicopters for troops in Iraq and Afghanistan £400 million [you could not make this up] apparently included over £100 million in lawyers fees - what a gravy train..... £400 million could have paid for several very worthwhile projects which could have benefited ALL of the people of Northern Ireland - it works out at £220,000.00 per head of our population Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) It's fairly easy to understand really. For years the Nationalist people were treated as second class citizens, but they were smart enough to educate themselves as a means to end the oppression. When equality became more prevalent, the opportunities to go down peaceful conflict resolution paths presented themselves, and that is why we have power sharing in this democratic society.Sorry Dancake we''ll have to agree to differ. The "oppression" as you call it, was ended by Adams &Co murdering and maiming some of my friends and relations. Some were police, others farmers who lived in an area they weren't wanted. I will agree with you on one thing though - it will take more than one generation to sort this out. I should add thatI do not consider myself a Unionist. I am happy to live in a democracy and am happy to run with what the majority of N. Irish want - UK or United Ireland. But I feel that having murderers and thugs in government is a huge obstacle to progress. Edited May 1, 2014 by Big Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastiebap Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 That poor wee woman was taken away from her family, murdered and hidden away. Prosecutions may not bring her back, but it will give her family a sense of justice and some closure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strangford wildfowler Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Sorry Dancake we''ll have to agree to differ. The "oppression" as you call it, was ended by Adams &Co murdering and maiming some of my friends and relations. Some were police, others farmers who lived in an area they weren't wanted. I will agree with you on one thing though - it will take more than one generation to sort this out. I should add thatI do not consider myself a Unionist. I am happy to live in a democracy and am happy to run with what the majority of N. Irish want - UK or United Ireland. But I feel that having murderers and thugs in government is a huge obstacle to progress. Well said Big al, although I would not be up for a united Ireland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truflex Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 There will never be a united Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 There will never be men on the moon, organ transplants, a black president, cloning, ANC rule in South Africa, oh wait hang on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 What I'd quite like to know, and it's pretty hard to get a straight answer on this, is to what extent terrorist/paramilitary (or the members thereof) groups in NI existed to promote independence/union, versus having a convenient excuse for thuggery, profiteering, and organised crime. For example, what proportion of 'sectarian killings' were actually really more like 'gangland' ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiltsmark Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 That poor wee woman was taken away from her family, murdered and hidden away. Prosecutions may not bring her back, but it will give her family a sense of justice and some closure. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 What I'd quite like to know, and it's pretty hard to get a straight answer on this, is to what extent terrorist/paramilitary (or the members thereof) groups in NI existed to promote independence/union, versus having a convenient excuse for thuggery, profiteering, and organised crime. For example, what proportion of 'sectarian killings' were actually really more like 'gangland' ones? just look at the numbers killed in the "conflict" and by whom? that will give you your answer. KW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millrace Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 The fact her son says he could identify her killers but still chooses not to his very dissapointing ,,,what was the search for his mother all about when he is facilating her killers to walk the streets he needs to take a long hard look at himself,,,killers shd not be in power on either side and no one she be exempt from killing they commuted it the past that is just plain wrong,,,,truth and reconciliation just means getting away with it,,,,, My approach would be to let all children grow up in school together my 4yr old left playschool last year and asked why everyone was going to different schools and why they were different,this got me think in up to that point they were all just friends at school now because of imposed segregation they become separate cultures what hope does this bring of moving on from the past............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 just look at the numbers killed in the "conflict" and by whom? that will give you your answer. KW Yes, I suppose so. The criminal side always seems to be underplayed by the media, it is here anyway. Always the political element. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 The fact her son says he could identify her killers but still chooses not to his very dissapointing ,,,what was the search for his mother all about when he is facilating her killers to walk the streets he needs to take a long hard look at himself,,,killers shd not be in power on either side and no one she be exempt from killing they commuted it the past that is just plain wrong,,,,truth and reconciliation just means getting away with it,,,,, My approach would be to let all children grow up in school together my 4yr old left playschool last year and asked why everyone was going to different schools and why they were different,this got me think in up to that point they were all just friends at school now because of imposed segregation they become separate cultures what hope does this bring of moving on from the past............ One consolation is that integrated schools seem to be becoming more popular. Parents want the best for their children and it seems a good way to go about things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 One consolation is that integrated schools seem to be becoming more popular. Parents want the best for their children and it seems a good way to go about things. I agree with that one too Dancake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 What I'd quite like to know, and it's pretty hard to get a straight answer on this, is to what extent terrorist/paramilitary (or the members thereof) groups in NI existed to promote independence/union, versus having a convenient excuse for thuggery, profiteering, and organised crime. For example, what proportion of 'sectarian killings' were actually really more like 'gangland' ones? Thunderbird - as this is a pretty dodgy subject for an open forum I have pm'd you. This is still a dangerous wee place and you dont have to scratch too deep to open recent wounds (as this thread highlights.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Thunderbird - as this is a pretty dodgy subject for an open forum I have pm'd you. This is still a dangerous wee place and you dont have to scratch too deep to open recent wounds (as this thread highlights.) Thank you, very insightful and informative PM received and replied to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 When equality became more prevalent, the opportunities to go down peaceful conflict resolution paths presented themselves, and that is why we have power sharing in this democratic society. That would suggest that the murders of the IRA were justifiable until they educated themselves and decided to stop murdering people in my opinion none of the murders were justified from either side. An inconvenient truth is that the IRA so called freedom fighters and protectors of the oppressed Catholic people killed more Catholics than the police and British army put together something that some choose to forget. As for Adams I doubt if he will be charged I don't think there is enough evidence. There are plenty in the government of N Ireland that have questions to answer some at the top. I am all for integrated education but we all know what the biggest obstacle to that is. On 31st July 1972 three car bombs exploded in the village of Claudy. The first bomb to go off killed six people, including eight-year-old Kathryn Eakin, 15-year-old Joseph Connolly and 59-year-old Elizabeth McElhinney, graphically illustrating the contempt of the bombers for age or sex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodcock11 Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 One consolation is that integrated schools seem to be becoming more popular. Parents want the best for their children and it seems a good way to go about things. Yes you are right - there is some HOPE for the future out there. It would be good if we could get generations cascading down for whom the "troubles" are just a part of history. Ireland & the United Kingdom have moved a long way forwards as evidenced by the Queen's visit to Ireland in 2011 and the President's visit to England just recently. And, if I may say so, by the posts on this topic today which are encouraging in the main and from both sides of the spectrum. The contributions and thoughtful questions from "across the water" are impressive as well. I have no idea if and when we will see a United Ireland - I would think unlikely in my own life time but "probable" at least in the future, if I could place a forward bet at the bookies! The Scottish referendum may be hint for all of us Finally, it is impressive indeed that this thread is still going - again - and at those bookies, I would not have put money on that after five pages and 95 posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Here we go again. It wouldn't take too long to pluck all sorts of incriminating evidence from the internet relating to security forces collusion and loyalist paramilitary thuggery etc. Lets just leave it out ordnance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truflex Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 Yeah leave it out Ordnance. They don't like the truth. Offended by everything ashamed of nothing. Always the victim never to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted May 1, 2014 Report Share Posted May 1, 2014 (edited) Here we go again. It wouldn't take too long to pluck all sorts of incriminating evidence from the internet relating to security forces collusion and loyalist paramilitary thuggery etc. Lets just leave it out ordnance . Did you miss the bit where I said that I was and am against the murder and violence ( no matter what side it came from) . People had choices some choose to become doctors teachers and some just did their days work and harmed no one they are the people that I look up to. Others course to join paramilitary organisations and murder and maim thousands of their own people, any right thinking person would see them for what they were cold blooded murders. The sort that kidnaped a woman and put a bullet into the back of her head and left her children orphans and the people that ordered it, the brave men of the IRA Edited May 1, 2014 by ordnance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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