let's defend shooting and countrysports

[compo90]

Further to points raised on this thread http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/282294-another-guardian-article/?do=findComment&comment=2519554 it must be realised that the country sports organisations such as basc and the ca let us all down by allowing media and anti's stereotyping in the news to continue

 

As I said on the other thread, we need to show people who shooters and hunters actually are!

 

If we allow the stereotypes of shooters to continue to be thought of as rich toffs shooting driven game we will fail the same as the countryside alliance did with the hunting act....... That fell on its face due to the steroetype in the media which was allowed to continue up to the vote of all hunters riding to hounds and wearing red coats, the hunting act was a class vote, which is ironic when you think there are more people who "hunt" with lurchers, whippets, terriers and/or a couple of hounds they keep at home, this needs to be shown to the general public.....there are more shooters like me with a ferret or two, maybe a dog and a shotty worth under 200 quid.....than there are driven shooters with 100,000 pound side by sides

[compo90]

We need to get the country sports organisations to promote the correct type of person who shoots and prevent the anti's from feeding the media with the old stereotype that the common man doesn't have any sympathy for, we need to demonstrate that shooters (and hunters, ferreters etc...) Are normal working class people as well.

[spinach]

To be honest unless there is a political will by the media to portray us as positive rural types and there isn't ,as rural is either a second home or the new urban which brings all the changes we laugh at. Nothing will change.

BASC don't push for rural change ,though the CA do but even with all it's support and press officers they hardly get any of there releases picked up.

John.

[compo90]

I am not rural, ok I did grow up from 13 until 18 on a farm, but I was born in a city, and now live in a town and work in central london......... The days leading up until the hunting act became law, CA representatives giving press conferences that were on the news, where did he speak from? A hound packs kennels, who else was interviewed? The master of hounds? Where as if they had interviewed the terrierman? Or some lad in a council house with a lurcher it would have portrayed a far better cross section of society image......... How about the shooting and country pursuit organisations paying for a few tv adverts? Or adverts in papers? So journalists won't print the press releases, corporate organisations won't turn down money to run a few pr adverts...... Me and my ferret bolting and shooting rabbits for a farmer shows a better image than the stock pictures of commercial game shoots....... I said this about hunting for years, and mark my words, shooting is next, either through a law or by erosion of the many laws that already affect us, the rewording of the general licence, the increase in sgc fees, restrictions on lead shot etc..... We need to take the offensive

[Scully]

We need to get the country sports organisations to promote the correct type of person who shoots and prevent the anti's from feeding the media with the old stereotype that the common man doesn't have any sympathy for, we need to demonstrate that shooters (and hunters, ferreters etc...) Are normal working class people as well.

So how do you propose to do that? The head of the CA is the stereotypical sort the media feed from and the type that Monbiot bloke despise.Having the likes of White-Spunner attempting to represent the average working man isn't a good start. Horsey types are not exactly your average working man.

Your intentions are 100% laudable but I think your efforts would convince the media more of your working class background if you contacted them personally and made your feelings known, as a true average, working man.

Tell them how much money you earn, the vetting procedure you have to go through as a law abiding person prior to grant of a license, your family life,how you scrimp and save to do the things you do and how you feel about the countryside and your way of life. If you're sincere that passion will come through. Then tell them how much you resent being tarred as a pervert, a killer and a nut job simply because you enjoy one of the oldest cultures, traditions, way of life or whatever you want to call it, known to man.

Chasing vermin across the fields on horseback in the name of sport wont cut it nowadays though.

[compo90]

Well as members of the shooting organisations we are discussing and which you correctly state are the stereotype I am discussing they should all work together, do a poll of their members and represent that in the press, I don't have the money to get a full page advert, the ca, basc etc do have, just because they have a private education, a trust fund and a double barrelled name doesn't mean that they can not see the sense of what I am saying and can not find the people like us to be interviewed

[compo90]

And I have had several letter published in local papers defending ferreting, pest control and shooting following a rabbit problem in an allotments. Someone tried to cull the rabbits by shooting that went down like a lead balloon, I contacted the allotment association, took on the job with ferrets and nets and then ended up in an arguement with the woman who had started the whole affair moaning about the lad trying to shoot the rabbits........ I explained different types of hunting and why shooting wasn't the best option in the circumstances but that something did need doing....... I got lots of free veg too from the old boys on the allotments....... But I am not confident enough to take on a national paper alone

[Fisherman Mike]

Problem is as I’ve said before, the absolute majority of the populace are Animal lovers, and whether we live in town city or country we are a nation of them. Only 3.89% of the Adult population of the UK are shotgun holders. Pet and Animal welfare and associated industry is a massive business. WildBird food alone as an estimated turnover of over a £1 billion, pet foods around £ 2.25billion and pet care another £1.5billion. Some film and an interview of one of us shooting a wild bird, stretching the neck of flopsy bunny or murdering squirrel nutkin isn’t going to do much good in fact probably quite the opposite.

 

We have to put our case that’s true and I admire you sentiment, I really do… but we should leave it to the organisations that have the resources to support our interests and consider joining the BASC if not already a member.

 

I’m a member of the BASC and also the BTO and RSPB and fellow members know that I am a shooter and I’ve been slowly educating them about the massive benefits of proper pest control. I’ve also had my say on this topic for both organisations and DEFRAS consultative committee take great store in the advice offered by both so perhaps all shooters should abandon the BASC and join either of these organisations if they really want their voice on the general licence to be heard.

Edited May 2, 2014 by Fisherman Mike

[compo90]

Some of the replies are a bit negative, a bit "oh well" a bit defeated? I like the suggestion of joining the rspb etc..... Change from within...... And I do what fisherman mike said, I try and introduce my hobbies at every opportunity to other people, explaining what and why we do what we do has changed a fair few peoples attitudes to fieldsports and I know we are a nation of animal lovers, we are also a nation of meat eaters, I have introduced a fair few people to game also which all helps, and when you consider game meat to reared meat its easier on welfare grounds to justify eating wild rather than domestic animals

[spinach]

We have lots of problems , show a photo of a youngster with a dead rabbit a lurcher and a smile and it's placed next to a comment on child abuse, interview hunts men and women and you get a class society commercial that looks like a comedy sketch.

We also have a ten year hangover from the time we just wanted to carry on , so we never said how much we do enjoy our sports and came up with comments like its not about the kill at all it's the field craft . Then say we have nothing to do with cock fighting ,badger baiting hare coursing and we look like we're just hiding in shame.

Remember what 50 years ago was acceptable.

Were we just born in the wrong century!

John.

[CharlieT]

I think you will find that it is the media themselves who chose to stereotype field sports participants, not our representative bodies. Newspapers and TV are in the business of selling their media and nothing must get in the way of a good story. By portraying hunting and shooting types as "arrogant toffs" makes for a good story and sell papers. It is for this exact reason that the antis also use this tactic.

 

You speak of how the CA got it wrong prior to the hunting ban, but if you look back at their publicity material, press releases and interviews during the "fight" you will see that they made much of the ordinary working man's participation in hunting to get across the message you are speaking of.

 

To knock the CA and BASC just because their leader's parents chose to send them to public school smacks of the same prejudice you accuse the media of.

[Glenshooter]

We need to get the country sports organisations to promote the correct type of person who shoots and prevent the anti's from feeding the media with the old stereotype that the common man doesn't have any sympathy for, we need to demonstrate that shooters (and hunters, ferreters etc...) Are normal working class people as well.

 

What organisation are you a member of?

[compo90]

I was a member of the CA until recently and now a member of sacs, I like how me trying to rally the troops has turned to attacks on me.

 

We all and the organisations need to continue with PR, we lost the hunting, but have enough sports that need defending still.

 

We are all at least shooters, we need to keep fighting to keep what we have and is it wrong that we should have some action by the groups who are meant to represent us?

 

I am not anti toff, the poster who said I show the same prejudice is wrong, but when the anti's made hunting into a class issue we really didn't fight that angle well enough........ I go back to the point, if we portray what we do as a sport of the people, (I appreciate the % who actually have sgc's) then it can only help..... We shouldn't be waiting until the threat of a ban or loss before we take the offensive

[Glenshooter]

What is your current organisation doing in the 'PR campaign'? I'm aware of the good work that BASC and CA as well but don't know what SACS does.

 

It would be good to know what all the shooting organisations are doing as a starting point, IMHO.

[Cottonseed]

Problem is as I’ve said before, the absolute majority of the populace are Animal lovers, and whether we live in town city or country we are a nation of them...

 

I’m a member of the BASC and also the BTO and RSPB and fellow members know that I am a shooter and I’ve been slowly educating them about the massive benefits of proper pest control. I’ve also had my say on this topic for both organisations and DEFRAS consultative committee take great store in the advice offered by both so perhaps all shooters should abandon the BASC and join either of these organisations if they really want their voice on the general licence to be heard.

 

Good post and good tactical ideas IMHO.

 

It's an uphill struggle when most of the population have never seen a real gun and base their views on guns on the constant misuse of firearms portrayed by Tv and particularly, Hollywood--often by actors who make millions from that portrayal, yet never miss a chance to bleat against guns. Similarly with animals, most people, exposed to Walt Disney cartoons, bestow human characteristics and emotions on all sentient creatures. They can't help misunderstand that the majority of Europe's countryside has been managed for a thousand years and the death by the culling and harvesting .Most anti-game shooters in my part of Northern England are amazed to learn that the woodlands we still have exist only because the gentry and rich industrialists planted them for pheasant shooting

 

Shooting and hunting's biggest problem is apathy. We're a tiny proportion of the population, but if all of us made the effort to write to our MPs, write to point out prejudice in weekly and regional daily papers, or phoned radio stations, we'd be in a better position..

[compo90]

Cottonseed, that's what I try and do, challenge and educate at every opportunity, I have introduced 20+ people to shooting, some of which now shoot in their own right and own guns........don't know what sacs are doing nationally, I am a member for the liability insurance (they are the cheapes) and stopped paying CA when they stopped listening to me, they never answered my suggestions for fighting

[compo90]

If either basc or ca were to take up a national fight it would draw in more members for them, glenshooter what good work are the big 2 doing? I am unaware, or is it just what u read in the membership magazine?

[kent]

Problem is as I’ve said before, the absolute majority of the populace are Animal lovers, and whether we live in town city or country we are a nation of them. Only 3.89% of the Adult population of the UK are shotgun holders. Pet and Animal welfare and associated industry is a massive business. WildBird food alone as an estimated turnover of over a £1 billion, pet foods around £ 2.25billion and pet care another £1.5billion. Some film and an interview of one of us shooting a wild bird, stretching the neck of flopsy bunny or murdering squirrel nutkin isn’t going to do much good in fact probably quite the opposite.

 

We have to put our case that’s true and I admire you sentiment, I really do… but we should leave it to the organisations that have the resources to support our interests and consider joining the BASC if not already a member.

 

I’m a member of the BASC and also the BTO and RSPB and fellow members know that I am a shooter and I’ve been slowly educating them about the massive benefits of proper pest control. I’ve also had my say on this topic for both organisations and DEFRAS consultative committee take great store in the advice offered by both so perhaps all shooters should abandon the BASC and join either of these organisations if they really want their voice on the general licence to be heard.

quite a few already are members. but my thoughts are we should make are voices very much load and clear to BASC our biggest shooting org and if they are not acted upon then form a new organisation. BASC has maybe got a bit too big and has too many non-died in the wool shooters and most importantly SPORTSMEN in its ranks and is now getting a big old dose of "mission creep" Its an Ill most charities end up suffering from once the old guard die off

[Glenshooter]

quite a few already are members. but my thoughts are we should make are voices very much load and clear to BASC our biggest shooting org and if they are not acted upon then form a new organisation. BASC has maybe got a bit too big and has too many non-died in the wool shooters and most importantly SPORTSMEN in its ranks and is now getting a big old dose of "mission creep" Its an Ill most charities end up suffering from once the old guard die off

 

The biggest problem BASC has is not that it's too big but that it isn't big enough. Imagine if all UK shooters could unite into one organisation with the clout of 5 million or something potential votes. Now THAT would make politicians sit up and listen.

[Glenshooter]

If either basc or ca were to take up a national fight it would draw in more members for them, glenshooter what good work are the big 2 doing? I am unaware, or is it just what u read in the membership magazine?

 

Read what BASC do on the lobbying front. They do an excellent job. And if you think you can do better, good luck to you but it's highly unlikely that you are going to have much of an impact except to further divide shooting opinion. And did I really read that someone is suggesting that we leave BASC and join RSPB???

 

My day job is in 'communications'.

If either basc or ca were to take up a national fight it would draw in more members for them, glenshooter what good work are the big 2 doing? I am unaware, or is it just what u read in the membership magazine?

 

What does your organisiation SACS do on a national lobbying front?

[compo90]

I am not here defending sacs........ I too feel that if we were all in the same organisation we would have more power......not quite the nra in the usa, but a lot more clout, no where did I say I wanted to divide us up any further.......I feel that basc and the ca should merge, and all the other organisations should be then affiliated to and through the main organisation, that the leaders at basc and ca should really be on the offensive a lot more and should be trying to change national opinions.

 

I am with sacs for the insurance, I may not be in sacs if scotland gets independence, also they give my kids free membership until 18, so its a cost benefit exercise purely

 

We need more grass roots action as well, as I say I introduce as many as I can to shooting and ferreting and also share game with workmates ( I have a kenyan workmate who can't get enough rabbits) basc and the ca need to water down the "game to eat" thing as that seems too lofty for most people,

 

As kent said we need more fieldsports men in posts at the top...... And they need to get more aggresive, when I see such then I will rejoin the ca or basc, but as I don't see any fighting why pay through the nose for insurance......as I say tv adverts and adverts in newspapers at least and show the breadth of society involved

[Gordon R]

compo90 - other than your perception of negative comments, I don't see any genuinely constructive, practical solutions from you.

 

Unfortunately, some posters tend to get a bit defensive when others don't share their zealous vision.

[Scully]

If either basc or ca were to take up a national fight it would draw in more members for them, glenshooter what good work are the big 2 doing? I am unaware, or is it just what u read in the membership magazine?

I'm sorry if you feel you are under attack but that wasn't my intention, and I applaud anyones attempts to 'do something' but in what way and for what cause do you think basc or the ca should take up a national fight?

One of three main reasons we have little clout is that we have far too many shooting representative organisations as it is.The second reason is the apathy of shooters and the third is that we are a minority and no politicians fear us.

Each of our shooting organisations have their own priorities and agendas and the idea that they amalgamate into one big organisation would be ideal but it isn't going to happen. The NRA aren't interested in game or shotgun shooting, the CPSA aren't interested in rifle or pistol shooting,nor game shooting. BASC aren't interested in fox hunting from the back of a horse and the CA aren't interested in PSG. You can swap any of these around in a variety of ways.

Unlike the former colonies such as N. America, Canada etc, we have no tradition of hunting in the UK as most of the land has always been owned by the crown or their representatives in the form of the landed gentry.This was land given to them for services rendered to the crown regardless of who lived on it currently. Hunting on any of this land by the average serf has therefore more or less always been regarded as poaching, unlike the colonials who hunted and foraged for food on a daily basis. Therefore shooting and hunting became the preserve mostly of the so called upper classes and landowners.

Fortunately (for us) and no matter what we may think of them, the upper classes have kept the tradition of shooting very much alive, and the improvements in wages, working conditions/opportunities and the break down of the borders between the social classes has meant that the average working man can nowadays afford to shoot game on a more regular and affordable basis than ever before.The gulf between the shooting classes has been narrowed dramatically, and I seriously think that in this modern day, as far as game shooting goes anyhow, I would suggest us working class lads need them perhaps more than they need us? I understand that many of us know farmers on whose land we shoot, and some have formed game shooting syndicates on them for very little money in comparison, but if the upper classes hadn't kept up the long tradition of shooting for sport, our shooting would have even more of a minority following than it has now and I doubt very much whatever shooting organisations we had would be talking to bureacrats, MP's, and other politicians on a daily basis.

However, there are still many who despise the so called upper classes, for their wealth, their privileged upbringing, education, and their seemingly affluent lifestyles,and Monbiot is one of them. He, and people like him, have a serious chip on their shoulders, and 'killing animals for fun' is only one of many excuses to have a pop. Do you think Monbiot would warm to these people if they in fact stopped killing things?

If you want to make your point to Monbiot then write to him or the paper as I suggested, challenging them to publish, but expecting the shooting organisations to come together to launch an expensive campaign for the cause of the common shooting man isn't really viable, neither from a PR point of view nor financial. Sorry.

I do however, applaud what you are already doing. If more people contacted their shooting organisations, their MP's and the media whenever they feel they have been slurred,or slighted,then it may not happen with as much regularity and the general public/media may just learn a thing or two.

[kent]

Read what BASC do on the lobbying front. They do an excellent job. And if you think you can do better, good luck to you but it's highly unlikely that you are going to have much of an impact except to further divide shooting opinion. And did I really read that someone is suggesting that we leave BASC and join RSPB???

 

My day job is in 'communications'.

 

 

What does your organisiation SACS do on a national lobbying front?

Actually they won better terms for Scottish dog men when BASC under Swift suggested a clime down compromise, precisely what we got in England and Wales surprise suprise

[955i]

What hope do we really have of a united front when we can't even agree amongst ourselves?

 

See any number of threads for proof.

 

Personally, I don't agree with people shooting foxes where they are not a problem but others say the only good fox is a dead one.

 

On a number of occasions this seems to be not because they are a nuisance, but because apart from deer they are pretty much the largest thing you can shoot over here and people seem to think they get a penile extension from doing so.

 

Then you get the people taking larger bags of geese than they can realistically deal with and get a slating.

 

Each to their own I guess.

Edited May 3, 2014 by 955i