Has anyone tried .223 with subsonic loads and 40gr bullets?

[dadioles]

I have many years experience of rimfire but nothing useful with centrefire and reloading.

 

With a need to control Muntjac and Fox I will shortly be getting a .223 and despite earlier expectations, I will reload from day one.

 

While daydreaming a bit with a glass of wine in the sun, I was thinking that, at least in theory, the .223 could replace my .22lr and .17hmr as it should be possible to create loads that replace both of those calibres.

 

Is there any practical reason why a moderated .223 should not fire a 40gr bullet at, say, 1100fps very quietly and with comparable accuracy to .22lr (half inch at 80 yards)?

 

It just seems that there is the possibility of two guns in one, depending on load.

[Kes]

The cost doesnt justify it for rabbits at 60p -80p (reloaded) a shot. I have never tried a sub sonic load for that reason. Go with a friend and let him carry the .22 !

[rem708]

It would be illegal to shoot Mutjac with a subsonic .223!

 

The minimum muzzle energy is 1000ft/lb and with even the heaviest .224 bullet you could not achieve that sub-sonically

Minimum bullet weight for Munties is 50gn!

[saddler]

The way to success with subsonic loads is to use a pistol powder sucb as bullseye, but with a cast lead bullet.

 

Makes for very cheap reloads, plus the lack of bullet jacket makes for better performance on target.

 

Website in the USA called cast boolits will have all the information you'll ever need

[kyska]

It would be illegal to shoot Mutjac with a subsonic .223!

 

The minimum muzzle energy is 1000ft/lb and with even the heaviest .224 bullet you could not achieve that sub-sonically

Minimum bullet weight for Munties is 50gn!

 

I think the OP means the .223 for muntjac and fox, but sub sonic loads for the rabbits.

[dadioles]

It would be illegal to shoot Mutjac with a subsonic .223!

 

The minimum muzzle energy is 1000ft/lb and with even the heaviest .224 bullet you could not achieve that sub-sonically

Minimum bullet weight for Munties is 50gn!

 

Yes, I know that. Why else would I buy a .223?

 

My slightly twisted logic was that I could go out with one rifle but two (or three) loads. Most of the time I am shooting rabbits and often at .22lr ranges, subsonic is good. It just seemed possible to use the .223 for that, from time to time, while at the same time carrying the more normal 55gr 3100 ft load for fox and Muntjac in case I am lucky to see any. I do not have any useful first hand experience of either but look forward to a few fun hours experimenting.

 

**** law says that if I go out with .22lr or hmr I will see fox and Muntjac and if I take the .223 I will only see rabbits. Maybe when I get out there and shoot something I may find that a rabbit, head shot with a 55gr .223 at 50 yards, is still edible.

 

Cost is not too much of an issue, I still have the .22lr and .17hmr for more predictable work.

 

A cast lead bullet sound interesting, one web site suggested putting the bullet in backwards to improve accuracy. I do see the logic there.

 

Taking a friend to carry the second rifle - yes, I like that, but normally find shooting with someone else is a hindrance at night, although of course Muntjac at night is illegal.

 

Oh I see hours (days...) of new challenges ahead of me .

[saddler]

Also look at the John Waters book on reloading...

he covers this topic under the section on "squib loads" ~ a small charge of pistol powder with a round-ball (buckshot in some cases) push seated in the case mouth

 

This was a very common way of being able to guarantee something for the cooking pot back in the days when a family may only have enough money to own one gun.

Being able to chamber a short range rabbit/grouse cartridge would turn the family 30-06 into a small game rifle without too much meat damage/over-penetration, etc.

 

Given the small bore dia. a cast lead bullet will probably do the job very well.

[Alycidon]

40gr bullet at subsonic velocity, thats basically a 22LR.

 

Loading centerfire rounds for sub sonic performance is VERY specialised and potentially lethal. To little powder in a case is just as dangerous as to much.

 

If you want to throw 40grs at 1050 fps then use a 22LR, however this is not even a fox round unless you can get a sub 50 yard shot. It is of course way below the legal energy levels required for any deer.

 

A

[dadioles]

 

Loading centerfire rounds for sub sonic performance is VERY specialised and potentially lethal. To little powder in a case is just as dangerous as to much.

 

 

Can you expand on that please. Yes, daft though it may sound, the idea was to get a .223 to behave in a similar fashion to .22lr. Perhaps not conventional but not unheard of. Specifically, how is a low charge dangerous - apart from the obvious one of not pushing the bullet out.

[old_n07]

Get some Trail boss powder and have a play

 

http://www.loaddata.com/articles/PDF/LD-36%20Haviland%20LR.pdf

 

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

 

I was shooting .308 last week with 12gr of TB and a 155gr bullet and you didn't need ear defenders, good fun

[Guest stevo]

 

Can you expand on that please. Yes, daft though it may sound, the idea was to get a .223 to behave in a similar fashion to .22lr. Perhaps not conventional but not unheard of. Specifically, how is a low charge dangerous - apart from the obvious one of not pushing the bullet out.

flash overs and case detonation . Under loading a case can be VERY naughty !! You can also properly knacker your sound mod .

 

If you don't know what your doing forget the idea . Move on .... walk away . Its a pointless venture and im struggling to see what you intend to gain . There's not enough pro's warrant the cons .

 

There is a reason there's not a lot of credible data by manufacturers !

 

Regards stevo

[kent]

I have many years experience of rimfire but nothing useful with centrefire and reloading.

 

With a need to control Muntjac and Fox I will shortly be getting a .223 and despite earlier expectations, I will reload from day one.

 

While daydreaming a bit with a glass of wine in the sun, I was thinking that, at least in theory, the .223 could replace my .22lr and .17hmr as it should be possible to create loads that replace both of those calibres.

 

Is there any practical reason why a moderated .223 should not fire a 40gr bullet at, say, 1100fps very quietly and with comparable accuracy to .22lr (half inch at 80 yards)?

 

It just seems that there is the possibility of two guns in one, depending on load.

 

Slightly off your question but .222,.223, 22-250 can all fire reloads from .22 magnum to .22 hornet power levels safely and accurately. Subsonic is pushing it too much with a 40 grain bullet (most sub CF loads use a heavier than usual bullet for calibre). When it comes to 40 grain subsonic the price you can buy a .22 rifle for and the cost availability of the ammo renders the rest a dangerous waste of time IMO. I also feel 700 ft lb at the muzzle is about the max you can shoot rabbits with and it still being worthwhile picking them up and you can also kill foxes to all the normal ranges and crows effectively, why not just try for a 40 grain jacketed round like a v-max traveling 2500- 2800 fps? That way you get increased barrel life, less recoil, easier moderation and only then need a 50 grain or over 1000 ft lb load for deer (one recorded zero change between the two loads).

[spandit]

Can you get an adaptor that would allow firing .22LR in a .223 or is the calibre too different? I'm sure I read of someone firing .22 airgun pellets using a primer only in a suitable adaptor

[dadioles]

Some of your comments triggered a bit more research and it looks as though it is quite common (in good ol' USA of course) to fire .22lr bullets through an AR-15. Spikes Tactical .22lr Conversion Kit looks as though it is basically a replacement bolt.

 

What a wonderful mixed up world..... I must admit, I really don't get this whole 'survival' business. Maybe Americans feel inadequate, or at least, insecure with a desperate wish to be Rambo or super cop? I grew out of that when I was about 11. Must confess to having a fun day paint balling recently though, perhaps I do understand after all - just in denial!

[Amazed]

Some of your comments triggered a bit more research and it looks as though it is quite common (in good ol' USA of course) to fire .22lr bullets through an AR-15. Spikes Tactical .22lr Conversion Kit looks as though it is basically a replacement bolt.

 

What a wonderful mixed up world..... I must admit, I really don't get this whole 'survival' business. Maybe Americans feel inadequate, or at least, insecure with a desperate wish to be Rambo or super cop? I grew out of that when I was about 11. Must confess to having a fun day paint balling recently though, perhaps I do understand after all - just in denial!

 

TC contender can fire rim and cf with a chamber converter (looks like a modified 223 case made of steel.

Single shot though.

[scotslad]

Out of couriousity how does the firing pin connect with the primer? Round cant be off centre for it to line up with the barrel.

 

If ur new to cf's/FAC u will pick up a 2nd hand 22lr or 50quid for 100 u wil get 1 with scope and mod, most gunshops have rooms full of cheap 22's they don't even display, won't be pretty but will do the job no prob's, i've still got a 50quid job prob 10 years later, does everything i need for a 22

2's Cheap to buy, cheap to run. Reloading gear is quite expensive as well

By chopping and changing ur bullet choice/POI, i would always be paranoid i have the rifle zeroed for the right ammo

[Amazed]

You can change fireing pins. Still seems a lot of messing.

 

A small 22 lr with a small scope over the shoulder seems a better option.

Teemed with a light weight 223.

[Redgum]

Interesting thread but really totally pointless, if it was cheap and easy to reload imaging what a memory you would need to keep dialing in for different rnds. I use 85gr and 100gr in 243, I re zero if I change rnds. It wouldn't just be a case of picking a different bullet out of your pocket if you see a rabbit or Muntjac. If you ran a none jacketed subsonic down the barrel for a rabbit you would have lead fouling, then fire a jacket rnd at a Muntjac what would happen, and say if it worked well and the point of impact was consistantly the same from this combination what if you ran the rnds the other way rnd with a jacketed hv down the barrel first.

 

As above for only real solution, .22lr and 223, no gun will do it all.

[Livefast123]

I used to load subsonic .223 rounds just because I could and I could then use my rifle at my club.

 

Hodgdons Titegroup 3.1gr max over a 55gr FMJ - it's an official load in the book.

[houlsby]

Again iv done thus for my own interest. (I used to compare notes with livefast) I found them to be a bit of a faff after a while. I got them to stabilise eventually and was able to put the mod on. Still not as quiet as a 22 lr as the primer makes more noise..

 

Lots of reading.. lots of failures.

 

Use trail boss 4.2g with a 55g bullet 8g fills the case so no worries with flash over

 

there's no chance of using both sub and super sonic at the same time aas you'd be pointing the gun in the air to hold it over the supersonic zero!!

 

II admit I spent too long **** g about doing this. I still just went n bought a 22 lr and saved hours of headache.

[spandit]

Slightly off topic but I tried putting my .223 mod on my .22LR - made no difference to sound, as far as I could tell, but ruined the balance & made it very heavy

[Amazed]

Slightly off topic but I tried putting my .223 mod on my .22LR - made no difference to sound, as far as I could tell, but ruined the balance & made it very heavy

Supposedly you can get a build up of un burnt powder when it's on the rf and then I you put it back on a cf it can have a secondary detonation.

Not too sure about the facts i was warned some time in the past about the possibility.

[spandit]

I didn't fire many rounds through it so don't think there'll be a problem. Can always strip & clean the mod. too

[Amazed]

I didn't fire many rounds through it so don't think there'll be a problem. Can always strip & clean the mod. too

I wouldn't worry about it pal I think it was more for people doing it regular.

[1066]

Some of your comments triggered a bit more research and it looks as though it is quite common (in good ol' USA of course) to fire .22lr bullets through an AR-15. Spikes Tactical .22lr Conversion Kit looks as though it is basically a replacement bolt.

 

What a wonderful mixed up world..... I must admit, I really don't get this whole 'survival' business. Maybe Americans feel inadequate, or at least, insecure with a desperate wish to be Rambo or super cop? I grew out of that when I was about 11. Must confess to having a fun day paint balling recently though, perhaps I do understand after all - just in denial!

 

Sub calibre adapters have been around for over 100 years - Morris tubes were used in service rifles and revolvers for training and adapters to shoot 410's and .22 rimfires in 12 bores etc.

 

There are commercially made adapters to fire .22 rimfires in .223 centrefire rifles also a converter to shoot heavy weight airgun pellets propelled by a shotgun primer.