team tractor Posted October 24, 2014 Report Share Posted October 24, 2014 (edited) After reading the new legislation on here am I right in thinking you can't use ballistic ammo on deer?? I haven't had ashot at one yet but would want to stay legal Edited October 25, 2014 by team tractor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vapours Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Could advise what new legislation please as I seem to have missed it Thanks Vap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted October 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 On this page pinned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 All ammo is 'ballistic'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul T Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Think you must have mis-read it. The minimum standard for ALL deer (England & Wales) is soft point or hollow points above 50 grains and min calibre 0.24". I won't cloud the issue with Roe in Scotland or smaller calibres for Munties & CWD. Just accept the above as a rule of thumb and you'll be fine. Once you've shot it though, do you know the importance of the gralloch? Do you know the signs of reportable diseases on other organs? There's much more to deer stalking/shooting than just pulling the trigger with a legal rifle and ammo - just saying, like... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vapours Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 OK this was my thought as I understand the law ammo is either fmj or ballistic. The rate of expansion is not covered so any soft point / ballistic tip is ok (weights, caliber and energy being allowered) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted October 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Think you must have mis-read it. The minimum standard for ALL deer (England & Wales) is soft point or hollow points above 50 grains and min calibre 0.24". I won't cloud the issue with Roe in Scotland or smaller calibres for Munties & CWD. Just accept the above as a rule of thumb and you'll be fine. Once you've shot it though, do you know the importance of the gralloch? Do you know the signs of reportable diseases on other organs? There's much more to deer stalking/shooting than just pulling the trigger with a legal rifle and ammo - just saying, like... Ballistic tip tho isn't a soft or hollow point is it ? That's what I'm saying . So if I'm walking round with vmax 55gr it's not a hollow point or soft point I've gutted a few now after been given them whole so I'm confident on that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spandit Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 I think the plastic ballistic tips are there to give the aerodynamics of an FMJ with the expansion of a soft/hollow point. The guidance pinned above does have (expanding) in brackets and I'd argue that a plastic tip is a soft point as it's not hard metal. That said, I don't know if they are suitable for deer or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin lad Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Ballistic tip tho isn't a soft or hollow point is it ? That's what I'm saying . So if I'm walking round with vmax 55gr it's not a hollow point or soft point I've gutted a few now after been given them whole so I'm confident on that i wouldn't rush out to shoot a deer with a vmax bullet they make a mess and do a lot of meat damage to the carcass Colin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Ballistic means the study of the mechanics of projectiles. The only bullets that are legal for deer are soft point or hollow point (expanding ammunition). Ammunition manufacturers make and use the term Ballistic tips for some of their brands. These are basically hollow point bullets with a plastic tip inserted into the hollow point to make them aerodynamic and to stop the nose from being damaged and to assist with expansion. On impact, the plastic tip is driven back into the bullet thus aiding expansion. The integrity of the bullet is regulated by the construction and design of its jacket and internal core. Bullets designed for vermin have a thin jacket and a soft core, which makes them extreemly frangible whereas bullets designed for deer have a thicker jacket and more robust internal core, allowing the bullet to penetrate and hit the vital organs. Therefore, when choosing a Ballistic Tip bullet for deer it is important to choose one designed for the purpose. If you work on the principle of choosing a bullet that is designed to expand in a controlled manner you won't go wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
team tractor Posted October 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 I have hollow point but carry vmax for the foxes . I just wanted to make sure I'm legal if a munty pops out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Ballistic means the study of the mechanics of projectiles. The only bullets that are legal for deer are soft point or hollow point (expanding ammunition). Ammunition manufacturers make and use the term Ballistic tips for some of their brands. These are basically hollow point bullets with a plastic tip inserted into the hollow point to make them aerodynamic and to stop the nose from being damaged and to assist with expansion. On impact, the plastic tip is driven back into the bullet thus aiding expansion. The integrity of the bullet is regulated by the construction and design of its jacket and internal core. Bullets designed for vermin have a thin jacket and a soft core, which makes them extreemly frangible whereas bullets designed for deer have a thicker jacket and more robust internal core, allowing the bullet to penetrate and hit the vital organs. Therefore, when choosing a Ballistic Tip bullet for deer it is important to choose one designed for the purpose. If you work on the principle of choosing a bullet that is designed to expand in a controlled manner you won't go wrong. In a nut shell . Harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted October 25, 2014 Report Share Posted October 25, 2014 Ive hit Deer with vmax without tooooo much damage, but there again weight was a contributing factor. They were 150 SSTs. Just a side note, "ballistic tip" is a registered trade mark for nosler. So its the only one manufacturer that can call them " ballistic tips" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 Ive hit Deer with vmax without tooooo much damage, but there again weight was a contributing factor. They were 150 SSTs. Just a side note, "ballistic tip" is a registered trade mark for nosler. So its the only one manufacturer that can call them " ballistic tips" Highly unlikely you used a 150gr Vmax as Nosler don't make one. What you obviously used was a 150gr ballistic tip SST which is designed specifically to produce the controlled expansion required for deer. As I said in post 10, there is a vast difference between ballistic tipped varmint and hunting bullets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 Highly unlikely you used a 150gr Vmax as Nosler don't make one. What you obviously used was a 150gr ballistic tip SST which is designed specifically to produce the controlled expansion required for deer. . Aye Hornady = vmax (the larger cals equivalent is SST) Nosler = ballistic tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 Aye Hornady = vmax (the larger cals equivalent is SST) Nosler = ballistic tip. I say again, Vmax is a varmint bullet and of a totally different construction to a SST which is designed for deer and larger quarry. Hornady does not call or class SST as Vmax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dougy Posted October 26, 2014 Report Share Posted October 26, 2014 OK! well done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 This subject has come round many a time and to my knowledge has never been tested. The phrase used is along the lines of hollow/soft point and controlled expansion. (no doubt someone will be able to quote the Deer Act/Amendment) If someone has specifically defined that I would be surprised, I would also be more than surprised if V-Max didn't come in that description. So that potentially is the legal side, now then, do you want to use V-Max, well, that is another question altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 'designed to expand in a predictable manner' I believe is the wording, but I am sure someone will quote chapter and verse. I posted this earlier but deleted as it tends to derail/descend into handbag swinging, but in the OPs case I would use A Max. They drop muntjac and foxes on the spot and very little meat damage as well, it would save having two different rounds to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 'designed to expand in a predictable manner' I believe is the wording, but I am sure someone will quote chapter and verse. I posted this earlier but deleted as it tends to derail/descend into handbag swinging, but in the OPs case I would use A Max. They drop muntjac and foxes on the spot and very little meat damage as well, it would save having two different rounds to think about. That's an interesting one. Particularly bearing in mind that Hornady altered the wording on A Max packaging and literature to conform to the UK laws on expanding bullets and thus keep it within the law for target shooting.. Since the HO/ACPO ruling on A Max not being considered expanding and as such no expanding ammo condition is required on one's ticket to acquire and the fact that A Max can be sent through the post, I would suggest that A Max contravene the Deer Act. I write this a (past) user of A Max and not in an attempt to further the rights and wrongs of using A Max on deer or how it performs in the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 As I say... They clearly expand, in a very predictable way and controlled way I would imagine Hornady changed the wording as a marketing move just to keep target shooters and therefore people who still want to post them, happy, rather than hunters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted October 27, 2014 Report Share Posted October 27, 2014 As I say... They clearly expand, in a very predictable way and controlled way I would imagine Hornady changed the wording as a marketing move just to keep target shooters and therefore people who still want to post them, happy, rather than hunters. Agreed, they do indeed. I read with interest the dialogue, first initiated by Devon & Cornwall firearms licensing, when ACPO referred the matter to the HO for a ruling. The HO investigated and finally wrote to Hornady, who came back with the answer that A Max was not designed to expand in a controlled manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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