Fisherman Mike Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 In the face of the now known outcome, some advice that eh? a decent union rep would have stopped this in its tracks simply by insisting on procedural adherence and following due process with FULL legal advice if and when needed but hey ho who needs unions? but then after all you did say later he would only get a smacked wrist anyway, seems your tips on employer/ employee relations and disciplinary outcomes are shall we say "lacking". KW We can all be as clever as you after the event..."if you can meet with triumph and disaster etc..." Taking a union rep would have changed absolutely jack and you know it. And by the way ACAS aren't a Union they are a independent public advisory organisation. Im afraid your knowledge on Unions/Employer/Employee relationships is very lacking.... Wasn't it you who posted "nobody likes a smart ****" only a couple of weeks ago. The OP needs to have a word with Thunderbird about what to do next he's the only one on here experienced in these issues... I doubt very much if ACAS would be much help as the company are obviously very sure of there position. Personally I would look for another job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegleg31 Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Not taking anyone's side as I enjoy reading both your posts but FM has said all along to listen to thunderbird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 We can all be as clever as you after the event..."if you can meet with triumph and disaster etc..." Taking a union rep would have changed absolutely jack and you know it. And by the way ACAS aren't a Union they are a independent public advisory organisation. Im afraid your knowledge on Unions/Employer/Employee relationships is very lacking.... Wasn't it you who posted "nobody likes a smart ****" only a couple of weeks ago. The OP needs to have a word with Thunderbird about what to do next he's the only one on here experienced in these issues... I doubt very much if ACAS would be much help as the company are obviously very sure of there position. Personally I would look for another job never said acas was? so dont try and be clever please, as for the unions would not have changed anything ? sorry your wrong they would have challenged the car being opened, with a why and how and with who's permission, they would have challenged the companies rights and procedures and in this case and they would have taken it to an industrial tribunal for the grand sum of nowt. oh and my knowledge of unions and employee rights is very good actually and you have not got a clue why it is? KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegleg31 Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Without trying to get into an argument because my knowledge of unions is poor. Would the OP have to be a member or could he simply join for them to act on his behalf?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Without trying to get into an argument because my knowledge of unions is poor. Would the OP have to be a member or could he simply join for them to act on his behalf?. Joining after the fact probably won't help, he could contact his home insurer to see if there is any legal cover for this type of thing included. Biggest issue is him getting another job potentially with no reference from previous employer. Knowing the full terms of dismissal and the company procedure are key to any appeal. Was it in writing, was it for the right thing? Was the failure of the search procedure brought up and addressed? As there was no solicitor present at the meeting for the OP he is now on the back foot. Best of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felly100 Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 So some poor chap has lost his job and PW members are point scoring. Get a grip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisherman Mike Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 So some poor chap has lost his job and PW members are point scoring. Get a grip. Quite... The time is now to take stock and get some proper impartial advice from an expert before deciding what to do next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHOOTEMUP Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 In our Company there is a strict procedure to follow regarding matters such as this. Without knowing yours ( and to its Legal status- A company can write what it likes but is still subject to Employment Law), then I would think this first meeting is to discuss their position on the matter, to which you can then address the non-adherance to the Search Procedure. Would hope that even if they do decide to take matters further, that there is a tiered strutcture to follow i.e Verbal Warning Written Warning Dismissal So would hope its the first stage only But, as said before. Not an Employment Legal expert However serious a breach of employment is they can only suspend you and then arrange a hearing where you are requested to attend then the company has to lay out its findings on the matter to you for a response, which you don't have to give straight away and be very cautious what you say. if in doubt say nowt ! there is a proper procedure to follow as jaymo says and however serious any breach of employment is it has to be followed to the letter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 (edited) Not scoring at all just having been a branch secretary and having been both a national delegate having sat on works councils for a multi national company as a union appointed rep for more than 30 years, I think the advice that the result would have been the same if a union was involved is incorrect advice.Threads like this sadly always make me wince when the first response is not are you a union member, but more of a "brave it out" cry but there you go they are it seems on here nasty things (till you need em that is?) KW Edited December 29, 2014 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 (edited) A union intervention would certainly have made more of the nature of the car search, without the OP attending and this would have given some leverage. Whether it would have been enough - without full sight of all the facts, no-one can definitively say. To merely dismiss a union's intervention is just silly and out of touch. Edited December 29, 2014 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Not scoring at all just having been a branch secretary and having been both a national delegate having sat on a works councils for multi national company as a union appointed rep for more than 30 years, I think the advice that the result would have been the same if a union was involved is incorrect advice.Threads like this sadly always make me wince when the first response is not are you a union member, but more of a "brave it out" cry but there you go they are it seems on here nasty things (till you need em that is?) KW With respect KW, it was you who first mentioned 'nasty' (or similar) unions in this thread, and if memory serves (and I believe it does) you also tend to be the first to mention 'nasty' benefits claimants (before anybody else does) in threads of that type too. A cynical person might think you were deliberately looking for a reaction and an argument... But for what it's worth I think you're right, the union in this sort of situation would probably have made a difference. Unions nowadays are not generally the militant donkey-jacket wearing types of yesteryear. The car search was dodgy if it contravenes contract terms, and if (as it appears) he was sacked at the actual disciplinary hearing is also procedurally dodgy. However, firms rarely sack people that they don't actually want to sack, despite what they've (within reason) done, which leads me to believe that perhaps they have been stoking the fires on this one for some time. Maybe the boss is anti-shooting? We don't know that as far as I know. In any event there is a PM inbound to OP. I think you and Mike should just have sex and get it over with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Rich as has been said by a few folk, give ACAS a call and get some immediate advice from them, following on from that you can make a more reasoned decision if contacting a solicitor is worthwhile. I know that in a previous post that you have stated that you are not overly concerned as you have another job lined up, but if I were in your shoes I would definitely lodge an appeal and push it as hard as you can. Without a doubt you were in the wrong having the birds in your car, but they have stepped outside of company policy in searching your car the way they did so you do have reasonable grounds to challenge their approach with a fair likelihood of reaching some type of settlement agreement. I have not read back all the way through the thread tonight so can't remember if you mentioned how long you have been employed there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalmac Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 Sorry to hear your news Rich, look for another job? Any similar ones nearby? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aris Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 I've worked with several people who have later been sacked (and quite frankly, deservedly so). Even still - they took their situations to arbitration and were either given a cheque to go away, or won damages in the arbitration. I don't know the full details - but it would seem to my layman eyes a no risk option for the employee. You win, you get some money - you lose, you lose nothing. But I would get proper advice from a lawyer, and possibly even be represented by one. The company will look at the risk & cost, and if they are savvy, just give you a cheque to settle the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinFerNan Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 Sorry to hear this Rich, not a great end to the year. I have read the whole thread (ignoring the bun fight) It's clear that your employer is on thin ice as they have not followed their own procedures. However, the why's and wherefores of what you did, and if that may or may not have put their stock in danger is (to my thinking) a potentially very expensive argument in the making. The way I see it (and of course it's easy for me) they have acted unfairly and that's going to pi$$ anyone off. But, I assume you'd not want to work there again now anyway? If so, by pursuing them through tribunal/courts etc the best you can hope for is months of stress with the possibility of a few £££'s at the end of it. Having said that, HDAV has hit the nail on the head I think, it's the reference that's the problem, only you will know if that is likely to be a real problem going forward or not. Sadly you have a simple choice to make now. You could try and put them to the sword OR hold your head up and walk away. I dare say TB's PM will be very useful, but unless you can get free legal representation, you may have to seriously consider having to suck this up and move on. Difficult to see right now, but I hope things work out for you. I lost a job once (I was sacked for spurious reasons) but my next job forced me to change directions, and that changed my life for the better. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m3vert Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 As I said in my earlier advice, check your home insurance policy and see if you have legal cover. If you do have the cover approach them and see if they will represent you. The insurance comeany won't fight a case they believe is a lost cause. If they think its got a chance go for it (this is all assuming you have worked with the company long enough to go down the tribunal route?), the worst you have to loose is a few sleepless nights prior to the tribunal. As has been said the employer may decide to settle out of court in which case its a win win for you. Good luck in whatever you decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVB Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 Regarding reference. Most companies I have encountered give a very basic reference that states no more than your joining and leaving dates. They won't say whether you were dismissed or why you left. They are paranoid about being held accountable if the person they are writing a reference for turns out to be a 'bad one'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FinFerNan Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) Regarding reference. Most companies I have encountered give a very basic reference that states no more than your joining and leaving dates. They won't say whether you were dismissed or why you left. They are paranoid about being held accountable if the person they are writing a reference for turns out to be a 'bad one'. Yes, it's called being damned by faint praise. Edited December 30, 2014 by FinFerNan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 Surprisingly common - bland references. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam1e Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 (edited) If it's your place of work, and you signed a contract agreeing to 'their' terms and conditions, which include allowing your vehicle and you to be searched under certain conditions, then I would say yes. I would suspect that denying 'security' access may result in a breach of contract, which may result in you being sacked, possibly?? Although it should only pertain to 'work premises'. Jamie Edited December 30, 2014 by jam1e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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