BASC - Landowners - Shooting

[markbivvy]

http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181842

[magman]

http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181842

 

if thats true mark they will get **** all off me in future

 

cheers for the heads up

[markbivvy]

no mate , its just me being paranoid.

[David BASC]

OK, YET ANOTHER DE-RAILMENT FROM THE ORIGINAL THREAD- WHY DO YOU KEEP DOING THIS AND NOT STARTING ANOTHER TOPIC?

 

Anyway - as usual, for those that seem to want to knock BASC only part of the story has been propery related - so let me give you the facts.

 

One of the big issues in farming at the moment is diversification- ie finding other income streams apart from growing crops & cows. Everythng is up for grabs- tunring farms into golf courses, off road driving centres, holiday lets, you name it's an option.

 

BASC have for about two years now been pushing the farming comminity to NOT STOP SHOOTING on thier land- no one else is doing this by the way -only BASC.

 

Last year we researched 3000 of our members asking them what type of shoting they do, how much they pay for it, what type of shooting they would look for, and if they were prepared to share the shooting. This was sent to both individual members, and a slightly different set of questions sent to our affiliated clubs and syndicates.

 

If you want a full set of the results posted on the site I will be happy to do so- but I will leave it up to the moderators to let me know if it sould go onto this thread or somewhere else.

 

Anyway- one of the key questions we asked of our clubs and syndicates and individual members was if they

were prepared to share the shooting with another group - if for example a game sysndicate has the shooting, would they let pigheon & rabbit shooters on the land outside of the game season - the answer was that 70% would consider sharuing the shooting with another club.

 

BASC then set up a seies of 4 farm workshops- on farms where shooting takes place already - some on a commercial basis some on a recreational basis, and invited farmers to come along to see how a shoot can be run on a farm - and not upset normal farming or most possible diversification projects.

 

The onjective is to to all we can to make sure farmers keep letting shooting on their land- and for those that do not currently let any shooting that they do so.

 

Yes we did discuss how much game shooting , wildfowling and stalking could be let for, and aslo discused ,based on the feedback from BASC members, how much they would be prepared to pay for rough shooting

 

There is only so much land in the UK that can be shot over- OK I know we all want out bit of great land on our doorstep that is stuffed with rabbits, pigeons, and pheasants and costs un *****r all - but I am affraid those days are going fast. Farmers have to make money just like the rest of us.

 

If you have free shooting at the moment well done! Do you sahre it or keep it to yourself- how secure is your shooting- OK the farmer may be a big mate of yours but whan a local club if formed and they offer him £3 per acre per your for the shooting- what is he going to do?

 

You can keep paying nothing and expect everthing- but I am sorry to say this will not last - we are all going to have to accept that sooner or later we will have to pay for our shooting.

 

But why knock BASC for working to keep shooting, and to open up more shooting? If we did nothing I can assure you that there would be fewer and fewer shooting oportunities each year - sitting back and doing nothing is not an option!

 

May I suggest that finding an keeping shooting would make a great topic for a confernce?

 

David

[Cranfield]

This is a new thread and we have moved the relevant posts from the BASC Pigeon Conference thread.

 

Lets try to keep this one on topic , please.

[dazza]

http://www.airgunbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181842

 

if thats true mark they will get **** all off me in future

 

cheers for the heads up

 

If it's true that BASC are encouraging farmers to charge for me for the pest control I provide then I agree with magman I too would have to reconsider my membership

[David BASC]

Dazza, Mark, Magman, et al

 

Read what I have written above and read what the vast majority of peole have posted on the BBS site.

 

BASC are not encoraging farmers to charge you for what you are already doing. Nowere have we said this either in our adverts in the famring press or at our talks with farmers.

 

As I have said before- on this post and others on this forum - if you have free shooting now good luck - do all you can to keep it that way- but we must all be realistic and sooner or later expect farmers to ask for payment. Some will some won't- but be realistice lots of free shooting is going to be a thing of the past sooner or later.

 

Work togethe to geerate shooting, get otgetehr with local clubs & sybndiactes to ask if you can get a bit or pigeon and rabbit shooting in wechange for work on the shoot-just likle lots of you do with your farmers,

 

Get together an form clubs-.

 

What it is important for BASC to do is to make sure that there are still loads of shooting opportunites availble- what would you prefer to do - pay a few quid for your shooting or give up all together?

 

Would you prefer BASC to do what others seem to do - and NOT gerneate shooting opportunites?

 

Sorry but that ain't gonna happen! My job at BASC is to make sure the package I deliver to the members is the best there is- and that includes developing shooting opportunities for our members.

 

On a national scale- this is one of BASC's key objectives, as publically stated for over a dacade.

 

For example- where I live in Cheshire almost all the land is shot over - some of it by very large clubs who are buying land.

 

So I have a choice- give up shooting of put my hand in my pocket.

 

I now belong to a small club - we shoot a 50 acre wood and about 150 acres of mixed farm land- only rough shooting, we are not allowed to put down any birds- (which suits me!) I pay £35 a year for this - I am happy, the farmer is happy.

 

David

[magman]

so the humble pigeon is no longer to be the poor mans pheasant

they will have to make do with rats

 

I now belong to a small club - we shoot a 50 acre wood and about 150 acres of mixed farm land- only rough shooting, we are not allowed to put down any birds- (which suits me!) I pay £35 a year for this - I am happy, the farmer is happy.

 

David

 

please share the details then it will give the poor farmer some more money

[David BASC]

I don't know that the pigeon was ever the poor mans pheasant! Given that some poor devils are charged £100 a day for pigeon shooting - you will have to be a rich poor man to buy that on a regular basis?

 

Not sure whre the 'rat' comment is coming from - maybe I am just simple to understand!

 

The club is based near Frodsham

We have a membership of 20 max

We have a waiting list (one person on it at the moment)

Our AGM is at the start of April

 

We formed the club bacause we all wanted somewhere to go shooting - It would have been possible for just one guy to rent all the shooting for himself - but he did not- he shared it - now 20 of us have the shooting.

 

Believe it or not I almost never meet anyone else when I am out in the wood or on the farm - so having 20 of us sharing the shoot does not have a negative impact.

 

Now how many of you would prefer to give up thier shooting rather than paying 35 quid a year?

 

If you have to pay (I say IF) how much is reasonable?

 

I could have acces to free shooting well into N Wales- but to be honest it is about an hours drive away - my 'paid for' shoot is 15 min away - call me lazy - call me a Cpaitalist - but I go for the easier option!

 

D

[njc110381]

I don't pay for shooting exactly, but the farmer gets a day of labour most weeks from me so I'm ok. If you count all the hours I do over the year, £3 an acre per year isn't going to get him far in comparison!

[Blackbart]

David,in one way i think your right we are all going to end up paying something for shooting it is going the way of everything else farmers are allready cottening on to the fact that they have something that is worth something.Our shoot lease has gone up again this year,we even have to pay the farmer next door £300 a year to stand 4 guns in one of his fields for about 20 mins a time 8 times a year!Thats £100 pound an hour to stand in his field!! The problem is not the farmers its agents and this is what the lads are getting at people like basc pushing the farmers to ask for more and more money.Basc has turned corporate and like all the political parties has lost touch with the people it was originaly formed to represent,it is a money driven organisation more concerned with memberhip ie revenue than representing their grass roots supporters.Ican now climb down off my soap box and go n take a cold shower.

[bobby dazzler]

looks like could be changeing my basc insurance why should we pay for shooting a few pigeons and rabbits its a joke money money money

[Cranfield]

I think a lot of the people that are prepared to pay £100 a day to shoot pigeons, fall in to three categories.

 

Firstly, they are foreign visitors.

Secondly, they are shooters with money , but little time, no decoys, no hides, etc. quite happy to have a few days a year on pigeons.

Thirdly, they are pigeon shooters, without any land, or not very productive land, that just want a "field day" every now and then.

 

Most of shooters that have knocked on doors to gain their shooting, are very reluctant to share it with anyone and that is very understandable.

 

I think the situation of Farmers charging for their pigeon shooting, seems to be in certain parts of the country only, it does not seem to be very widespread.

 

I don't think that paying for your shooting gives you any more chance of retaining it, than if you don't pay for it.

 

The most common "knock back" you get when approaching a Farmer is, "I've already got someone shooting them", I have never heard one say, "How much do you want to pay " ?

 

A lot of pigeon shooters views on this subject is going to be, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

[magman]

The club is based near Frodsham

 

that wouldn't be fox hill would it ?

 

as youv'e probably realised both in the same part of cheshire

 

I don't know that the pigeon was ever the poor mans pheasant! Given that some poor devils are charged £100 a day for pigeon shooting - you will have to be a rich poor man to buy that on a regular basis?

this was not the case 20 yr,s ago how many working men pay £100 to shoot pigeons

 

ps can you get a refund on a basc membership if you cancel

[dusk2dawn]

I don't pay for shooting exactly, but the farmer gets a day of labour most weeks from me so I'm ok. If you count all the hours I do over the year, £3 an acre per year isn't going to get him far in comparison!

 

 

On friday I was a little out of my usual shooting area and spotted uncountable amounts of pigeon flying back and forth with an unmistakable flightline, so being somewhat excited at the prospect of fresh land I made enquiries there and then intending to return that afternoon,

I located the farmer and spoke to him via mobile and guess what he said...... bearing in mind his crop was being decimated, "Im really sorry but I cant let you because a group have paid for the pigeon shooting"

I asked him where they were now while the damage was being done and he said "they only come occasionally when its a nice day" Can you believe it, I asked him to keep my number and to call me next year.

 

Do farmers want a reliable pest control service or a few quick pounds?

 

D2D

[David BASC]

To say that BASC does not represent the grass roots shooting in simply not so.

 

YOU the membere ELECT the council that sets the POLICY of BASC - so ultimately you arei n control -If you feel you are not being poperly represented then let me know at BASC HQ - I don't think you have have you? If so whay not - do you think I will ignore you- NOT SO

 

You the members have a voice at the AGM.

 

All members have an equal share in BASCand and equal voice- and are all encouraged to give BASC feedback. SO GET FEEDING BACK - if you think we are letting you doen then send me fact and detail. I will do all I can to fix it.

 

So - in what way exactly have we lost touch with the shooter - tell me

 

Yes we are concerend with money- without an income BASC will not be ablt to do all the things it does it is as simple as that- as I have said before- who is doing more to safeguard shooting than BASC? If there was no BASC then what would be the future of shooting?

 

Again BASC have been accused of asking farmers to charge more for shooting- where is your evidence? WE HAVE NOT ENCORAGED ANY FARMER TO CHARGE MORE.

 

As i have said before If you have free shooting then great- if you do not then you have 2 choices.

 

D2D you have highlighted a very important point- and i feel sorry for farmers (and responsible shooters) who get stuffed by this sort of attitude from irrisponsible shooters. If the farmer had a decent shooting agreent in place he could termiate the lease without penalty and let some other people shoot the land who are prepared to cater for the farmers needs!

 

If somone or a group is already shooting the land - ask the farmer if he will put you in touch with them - this can open up more shooting oportunities for you.

 

Magman - no not Fox Hill- For obviouse reasons I will not ost in a public forum the exact details of the location! Why do you want to cancel your membership?

 

D

[new to the flock]

Maybe I should stay out of this as I am not from the UK, but I do have a look at this from a farmers standpoint.

 

Dont take this wrong, but most of you look at this as if you are doing the Farmer a favour. I would like you to think about this in a differrant light for a moment. The rabbit that feeds on the grass and crops that the Farmer raises....is it worth less than the ones he has in a pen and is raising for market? We have many breeders that raise pigeon for the markets....everything from ferels and runts to kings and even wood pigeon....are the ones that are feeding on his crops and roosting in his woods worth less than the ones he is raising? I loose approximately 10 acres of standing corn on the one farm every year to deer are they worth less than the beef cattle or sheep that I am feeding that same crop to?

 

If a Farmer is going out of his way to manage his land through woodlot management , stream management, hedgerow management and in turn is raising and supporting the wild game that goes with it , and supporting it on his crops does he not deserve some of the same compensation for this product as he does for the livestock coming out of his barns?

 

 

Some of you may remember when Farmers paid you to do pigeon or rabbit, or dirt pig control on their land. It may have been a small sum of money or cartridges but it was pay. At present many of you enjoy shooting on their land for free or for some work exchange , this is fabulous, But at some point you can expect that the Farmers are going to start to ask for some compensation for the Game that They raise on Their property with Their crops.

 

Most think that the Farmer is rich because of the lands and equiptment involved in the running of the land on a daily basis.....in truth most are just like you and me struggling to make ends meet and the bank holding them by the morgage. If it was your farm, would you just let everybody in to shoot everyday.....NO

 

If I was crop farming in the UK, I would have a very select group of controllers for my land. On the pigeon front, I would have the lads that I know would be there if I called as my drillings are being hammered. This shooting they would have for free. This same group would also get the first right at just general day shooting if a few birds are about without having to pay. If they over extended themselves and I lost half a field of crop because of it, they would be gone. If they did not want the days when there were a few birds about and they would shoot 10 to 20 bird then these days would go up for sale.....After all it is my land and my crop supporting those birds .

 

As far as deer went if I had a problem and my management plan called for a reduction in numbers My main controllers would again get first crack at a set number.....as long as they were for their personnal use. I would be damned if I would have you taking animals that I basically raised by feeding and sheltering them and making a profit on them with out passing a percentage on to me. If they could use 6 of the 10 I was harvesting that year then they would have permission for those 6 free of charge. If they wanted to harvest over that 6 and I had what I needed all ready then there would be a charge. Other wise I would harvest them myself and sell them on.

 

The same with rabbits; the person I deemed suitable to the job with ferrets, dog and gun would have it for free during the time it took to bring it into a sustainable renewable resource of the farm. After that he could continue to control for his personal use and to fill my larder. If at times the population got a little high we would share the profits of the catch.

 

Remember , you are on my property at the moment as a guest shooting at game that I am sheltering and feeding. How many people do you think that I hear from a year asking for those same privaleges, promising to do a better job. And as for those of you that think we can not do without your services how many guns do you think would reply to an add of pigeon shooting on drillings....day of drilling and day after 35 pounds and then 15 pounds for every additional day needed. If the same shooters could not show up each day needed I would have a waiting list of alternatives.

 

Remember to look at all aspects of control not just your side of it.

 

There is no differance between marketing my lambs and marketing my shooting privilages.

 

 

Bet you are all glad I farm in Canada and not there aren't you

 

NTTF

[David BASC]

NTTF makes some excellent points.

 

Shooting is a partnership between the farmer and the shooter.

 

I feel we should also try to work harder together to share shooting- as I have said before there is only so much land in the UK..

 

I will be writing to ALL BASC affiliated clubs and syndicates in May asking them which are prepared to share shooting - the results of those that are will be published on the GoShooting web site.

 

I have just this week writen to all of our lcubs asking them if they have any vacancies - again all the replies will be published on the GoShooting web site.

 

I will continue to ask farmers to put theier land up for shooting and again publish those results on GoShooting

 

David.

[Cranfield]

Just on a point of clarification, you say that the BASC have not "encouraged Farmers to charge more", but you imply that the BASC has made Farmers aware that they could/should charge something.

 

A lot of the members here enjoy free pigeon shooting and approaches by the BASC that changes that arrangement into a fee charging/ground sharing one, will obviously not be appreciated.

 

How do you select which Farmers to approach ?

Do you look through Yellow Pages, or the National Farmers Union register ?

Or are the Farmers only approached after BASC members who currently shoot on their land identify them.

 

If I hear that BASC has contacted "my" Farmer suggesting he charges me for my pigeon shooting, or the BASC can supply him a list of people who are prepared to pay him, you can be sure my BASC card will be on its way back to you very fast.

 

I am sure I do not have to point out this is my personal opinion and not any reference to PW Admin policy, or anything similar.

[webber]

Well said Cranfield. I am a staunch supporter of BASC, but would not appreciate their interference with my shooting rights.

 

webber

[magman]

Just on a point of clarification, you say that the BASC have not "encouraged Farmers to charge more", but you imply that the BASC has made Farmers aware that they could/should charge something.

 

A lot of the members here enjoy free pigeon shooting and approaches by the BASC that changes that arrangement into a fee charging/ground sharing one, will obviously not be appreciated.

 

How do you select which Farmers to approach ?

Do you look through Yellow Pages, or the National Farmers Union register ?

Or are the Farmers only approached after BASC members who currently shoot on their land identify them.

 

If I hear that BASC has contacted "my" Farmer suggesting he charges me for my pigeon shooting, or the BASC can supply him a list of people who are prepared to pay him, you can be sure my BASC card will be on its way back to you very fast.

 

I am sure I do not have to point out this is my personal opinion and not any reference to PW Admin policy, or anything similar.

 

better at english than me , thats what ive been trying to say

[dazza]

Well said Cranfield. I am a staunch supporter of BASC, but would not appreciate their interference with my shooting rights.

 

webber

 

 

[markbivvy]

[quote name='David BASC' date='Mar 24 2007, 04:39 PM' post='293448'

 

I will continue to ask farmers to put their land up for shooting and again publish those results on GoShooting

 

David.

just had a look at the goshooting/basc buy a shoot site.

and had a read of the shooting agreement form, now according to this no basc membership no shooting. this is fine until the basc finally

have the biggest % of shooting in the UK, then what. you then have a license to print money through membership price increases which is rising quite rapidly as it is. back to putting shooting into the hands of the rich.

basc might like a monopoly on shooting land but i don't think the working classes would find a benefit..

[pin]

I don't agree with the BASC's stance on this, I am not throwing mud but I think either by accident (I hope) or on purpose (I hope not) these "conferences" have made some landowners who didn't know you can get £100/day for pigeon shooting, aware of it.

 

The tone of this all seems to infer that "poor old mr farmer" wouldn't realise he can charge for shooting, I am sure most farmers don't stay in business in this climate by being stupid - far from it. However, I am quite sure that a lot of them probably didn't realise just how much some people pay, by organising these "conferences" all the BASC have done is taken away or made more expensive a lot of members shooting.

 

We don't need this, and we don't need an organisation with our interests at heart doing this. I don't care what the intention was, the result is obvious.

 

To me it smacks of the BASC caring more about toffs and huge driven days than the part time sportsman shooter who in effect pay for everything, simply by outnumbering the other types of shooter.

 

The mag is always full of driven days and expensive shooting which simply isn't an option for most of its members, not all the time anyway.

 

If this wasn't the intention then someone at the BASC needs to think a lot more carefully about what they say and to who, before they speak up next time.

[Hunter_zero]

I now belong to a small club - we shoot a 50 acre wood and about 150 acres of mixed farm land- only rough shooting, we are not allowed to put down any birds- (which suits me!) I pay £35 a year for this - I am happy, the farmer is happy.

 

David

 

I have been shooting for most of my life and until recently have never paid to shoot but a few years ago I got in to deer management. You'll not find many free deer stalks in the UK, not if you want any quality stalking that is. Over the last few years it has occurred to me that my 'paid' shooting is far better than my free shooting. I'll explain. I have a few friends who own farms, these farms make up the majority of my shooting land, some 3000 acres of stubble shooting. The farms are spread over 500 square miles but are free. Every time I turn up to do some shooting, you can bet your life there are half a dozen other chaps also shooting and after the rape is cut it's like the wild west!! Two seasons ago, I turned up after booking a day off work. My idea was that I might get the fields all to myself. Not so, picture this. Two hides to every cut field. Two shooters in each hide. I kid not. Okay, it's free but if like me you have little or no time left after work and home pressures, all you really want is a few hours of good shooting. Now on the other hand, my paid shooting. I turn up just before sun rise, stalk a stag (hopefully shoot a stag). Gralloch and drag back to the 4x4. The off to hang in a barn, then down to the local cafe to have breakfast. Back up to the fields, to set my decoys out. Not much stubble but *I* am the only shooter to shoot the pigeons, so I can settle back and enjoy a mornings decoying. I then set my stove up, cook up some dinner and have a read of the countryman's weekly. Back to the decoys for an afternoons shooting. Pack up two hours before dusk, and get ready for an evenings stalking, I doubt I'll see a deer but hey one never knows......

 

Okay, the difference? Free shooting = much less chance of a good shoot. Paid shooting = better shooting.

 

This year I plan to secure a few hundred acres of rape / barley shooting, if anyone is interested it will be around the south wales area. I really am happy to pay for quality shooting, where I am assured of a quite day and don't have to compete with twenty other guys. Am I spoiling it for everyone else? Not at all. I pay £160 a year for stalking / pigeon shooting. I set the syndicate up for four people. If I can secure some pigeon shooting, I guess it will cost £50 - £100 for seven people max. I guess about 300 acres. I mean that seven people can have a good shoot all year for the price of a good night out. Free shooting, why do the farmers 'give' shooting away? they don't! Most of the people who shoot over my mates farms have a trade and the farmers use that trade, in kind. I'm a rat catcher and I certainly know that I work for my "free" shooting and if I were to be paid for this, the cost would run in to many £1000!!, it's my time and my efforts. So if you take that in to account and the fact that I only pay £160 a year for my paid shooting, which is most cost effective and value for money? £160 of course.

 

John