born_2_kill Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Greener, W. W. 12 gauge Side by Side second hand Shotgun (R/H) Licence: Shotgun, Barrel: 28", Stock: 143/8", Chokes: 1/4 & 3/4, Weight:6lb.12oz. Origin: English Trigger: 2, Ejection: Yes, Serial #: 42215 A W.W. Greener "Facile Princeps" side by side boxlock ejector shotgun, good condition, 28" sleeved barrels, coin-finished scroll & vine engraved action featuring Greener cross bolt and side safety, highly figured 14 3/8" Prince Of Wales grip stock. Made in 1898, a good example of a classic usable Greener. Wanting to treat myself to another SxS, something a little more special and I fancy an English gun, what can any-one tell me about the attached gun and price, partially the "Facile Princeps" part which I believe has something to do with the operation of the gun. Barrels where sleeved at 792 and still measure that now so he tells me and the Price is £795. One to pick up or stay away? Another pic And another... last one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpowder Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) It looks in superb condition, has it had a stock repair at some time. Certainly Greener have a reputation for making excellent shotguns, the price seems right . I would certainly buy it and would expect it to be passed on through a further two generations. Blackpowder Edit post script. I currently shoot with an 1889 Dickson Round Action, dont be put off by its age. Edited July 8, 2015 by Blackpowder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
born_2_kill Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) It looks in superb condition, has it had a stock repair at some time. Certainly Greener have a reputation for making excellent shotguns, the price seems right . I would certainly buy it and would expect it to be passed on through a further two generations. Blackpowder He mentions it's had a new stock, how did you spot it? was before his time, de-value at all? but he's owned the gun himself 7 years. Edited July 8, 2015 by born_2_kill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Looks like a full restoration gun with a stock repair what model is it exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
born_2_kill Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Looks like a full restoration gun with a stock repair what model is it exactly? It doesn't say anywhere, I'll ask him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
born_2_kill Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Model: Facile Princepts Grade: A1 Edited July 8, 2015 by born_2_kill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Model: Facile Princepts Grade: A1 That is not the model but it is the action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 .792 bores. Is that a 8g? Looks great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I think it might mean, 'easily the best'. Best get your hand in your pocket if you fancy it before someone else does as it's not going to hang about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesP Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I have had my Facile Princeps Greener for several decades. During that time I've a cross pin replaced. That's it. Never a misfire. The Facile Princeps action was effectively Greener's version of the Anson & Deeley box lock. Mine was made in 1892. It still has its damascus barrels, which were rebrowned in 1979 and reproofed at the same time. I expect the barrels measure .729 rather than .792. A good sleeving job is fine, a poor one is a bit of a shame. The gun you illustrate looks like it's been bled and polished and the stock refinished; that's a nice piece of walnut. The various grades of Greener guns are a bit of a minefield. Perhaps you may like to peruse the Holt's auction site for Greener box lock ejectors that have sold over the years. Remember that if you buy at auction the gun will be in proof, but otherwise sold with no actual guarantee. You would also have to pay the buyer's premium so the prices realised would have to have that added. http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/searchresults.asp?st=U Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
born_2_kill Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Lots of helpful information, thank-you. Could have jotted the measurements down wrong, sorry. How do I tell a good sleeved job from a poor one? Not purchased a restored gun before and would like to know what to look out for. It also mentions due to the type of boxlock on this gun, after it's been shot the barrels need to be pulled all the way down to re-arm it, is this a correct feature CharlesP? Edited July 8, 2015 by born_2_kill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesP Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Surely all break-action guns need the barrels pulled all the way down to re-cock? Mine needs just the same effort as a Wiley & Scott. If it needs anything out of the ordinary then walk away! Poor sleeving is cosmetically quite obvious. Good sleeving is hard to detect without taking the fore-end and barrels off the action. Poor sleeving can leave the barrels out of alignment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I'd look into this opening issue as it sounds odd as written. I'd. Also want to know who undertook all the work . To me, the weight looks good and indicates a higher grade gun. They are often very heavy and over 7 lb...... Some way over. Is it 2.3/4 chambers nitro proofed? IMHO Greeners made a good gun but not a great gun. This one looks pretty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackpowder Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 He mentions it's had a new stock, how did you spot it? was before his time, de-value at all? but he's owned the gun himself 7 years. The diamond inlet piece of timber behind the safety catch? I thought it was covering something like a bolt through the handgrip, but again it may be a feature of all Greener guns, others on here will be able to tell you better. Blackpowder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
born_2_kill Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Right rang him again, he must think I'm slightly potty but my money his gun, if he wants it the other way round he shouldn't mind. The opening "issue", according to him it's not an issue he said all are Greeners are like this, his words where it ejects before it cocks, meaning you have to travel another 2/3mm for it to rearm again after it's ejected. If you snap the gun open you won't notice, do it in slow motion you can. If you stop at ejection the right lock won't cock. Edited July 8, 2015 by born_2_kill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 The diamond inlet piece of timber behind the safety catch? I thought it was covering something like a bolt through the handgrip, but again it may be a feature of all Greener guns, others on here will be able to tell you better. Blackpowder probably a pin and a large coverup/detail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
born_2_kill Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) Right rang him again, he must think I'm slightly potty but my money his gun, if he wants it the other way round he shouldn't mind. The opening "issue", according to him it's not an issue he said all are Greeners are like this, his words where it ejects before it cocks, meaning you have to travel another 2/3mm for it to rearm again after it's ejected. If you snap the gun open you won't notice, do it in slow motion you can. If you stop at ejection the right lock won't cock. Edit: double post :-( Edited July 8, 2015 by born_2_kill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 New stock,sleeved barrels is never going to be an original gun . Bit of a triggers broom . I wouldn't buy it . Harnser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Right rang him again, he must think I'm slightly potty but my money his gun, if he wants it the other way round he shouldn't mind. The opening "issue", according to him it's not an issue he said all are Greeners are like this, his words where it ejects before it cocks, meaning you have to travel another 2/3mm for it to rearm again after it's ejected. If you snap the gun open you won't notice, do it in slow motion you can. If you stop at ejection the right lock won't cock. Edit: double post :-( Give Graham Greener a ring and ask him. Norman Clark gunsmith also worked for Greener so many know. I'd not say who is selling the gun though. Graham can also look up the original spec for that gun if you give him the serial number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
born_2_kill Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Will do. CharlesP can you confirm if yours is the same as the cocking in my above post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 The facile princeps simply refers to the cocking method of the internal hammers-I seem to remember that a single rod acts on both hammers. This method was used on the majority of his guns from 1880 onwards. Grades are a nightmare but to be honest-if you are buying as an investment as well as a usable gun I would think carefully-the wood is new as are the barrels-basically its just the action that's original and these can be found at auctions for reasonable money-its never going to become a collectors piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westley Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 A lot of English boxlocks around at the moment and some at VERY reasonable prices, verging on the dead cheap. May be something to do with the Lead Action Group rumours ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesP Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Mine's not an ejector, but the method of cocking is identical. I don't see why anyone thinks the wood is new. The diamond drop points are as original, and the wood-to-metal fit looks good to me, albeit refinished. It's not the cheapest grade of gun; fancy back action, middling engraving, decent wood. But have a look round at what's available. Did you check out the prices realised on the Holt's web site? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunman Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 Bone or horn inlets were a feature of several Birmingham makers , Greener and Bonehill to name but two .At under £800 its not expensive .All depends on whether you like old Greener's ,personally I'm not that keen as they do have problem areas that do not matter when working but can be an expensive repair especially in the ejector mechanisms/trippers . A good sleeving job is one that either you can not see or have to look for although with use and wear on the blacking there is often a colour difference between the new and old steels . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted July 8, 2015 Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 (edited) CharlesP-suspect the wood is new because the owner of the gun states that it is? As the barrels have required resleeving the gun has ,most likely, seen a good amount of use but the wood is mint-another sign plus there is no oil staining around the head-this is nigh impossible to remove from an old stock. Edited July 8, 2015 by bruno22rf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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