Lead - the invisible killer

[McSpredder]

No point going on the warpath now. Although I only chanced upon that report from the ex-RSPB prosecutor in the last couple of days, it could have been first published on the web years ago.

 

It is probably worthwhile for BASC to issue a comment when duff information is first published, but not at some time long afterwards. That is, unless the original mis-information is re-issued, or the authors produce another statement on the same lines.

 

I do think it is useful to make other PW members aware when somebody has been peddling misleading information, even at the risk of re-telling ancient "news". Hopefully solicitors who work with our shooting organisations will keep an eye open for any involvement of the ex-RSPB prosecutor in other legal actions, just as I am sure they are now (ie since last week) doing wherever a certain fox "expert" is concerned.

[keg]

Dave BASC,

 

Not just Grouse. Have you seen this one?

 

https://www.facebook.com/stoptheshoot/

 

https://twitter.com/stoptheshoot

 

 

And this is only one example. I have yet to see a response from any of the support groups on this.

[David BASC]

Yep, seen it, knew about it that's why we hit the media with this http://basc.org.uk/blog/press-releases/latest-news/the-glorious-twelve-benefits-of-grouse-shooting/ before the start of the season.

 

Our local team are also onto this latest outburst! We are working closely with the Moorland Association too

[Scully]

Maybe some of the points have been mentioned by BASC, and I just never spotted them. It must be impossible to construct a website where every item can be found easily and quickly by everybody (just try looking for some specific piece of Government information) and I often come across things on the web simply by chance.

 

For example, I noticed that RSPB's former prosecutor and senior criminal investigator makes claims far wilder than anything ever suggested by the LAG, and says that "...120 million cartridges translates into an estimated 38,400 metric tonnes (37,795 imperial tons) of lead annually discharged into the British countryside." Those figures imply a load of 320g (yes, three hundred and twenty grammes) in each cartridge.

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/images/pdf/kfps.pdf

 

His report of pheasant shooting in Britain asserts that "about 75,000 metric tonnes of lead shot are discharged annually into the countryside" and that "the amount of lead deposited from gamebird shooting significantly exceeded the American combined upland and wetland totals." World use of lead ammunition is about 150,000 tonnes/year, so the ex-RSPB man wants readers to believe that British game shooters use as much lead as all the military forces, terrorists, pest controllers, target shooters and sporting shooters in every country throughout the whole world.

 

Dont just laugh at this, because he is now an "Experienced professional criminal investigator and bird expert". He is also a Fellow, Honorary Life Member and former Principal of the Institute of Professional Investigators, which probably means that he has been highly successful in persuading law courts to accept his opinions and reject those of any other witnesses. This gentleman might be in court today, giving "expert" evidence against a shooter.

http://www.birdexpertuk.com/index.php

This is exactly what I mean. Surely this is the sort of information and investigative work our shooting organisations, whose full-time representatives have the time and the resources to search for such info', should be coming up with? Is it me?

[McSpredder]

BASC RAISES CONCERNS OVER OXFORD LEAD SYMPOSIUM WEBSITE

See BASC website. Delighted that David and his colleagues are onto this crowd.

http://basc.org.uk/blog/press-releases/latest-news/basc-raises-concerns-over-oxford-lead-symposium-website/

Edited December 9, 2015 by McSpredder

[Scully]

Brilliant. Great stuff indeed. Which national is it in?

[LeadWasp]

 

Dave BASC,

 

Not just Grouse. Have you seen this one?

 

https://www.facebook.com/stoptheshoot/

 

https://twitter.com/stoptheshoot

 

 

And this is only one example. I have yet to see a response from any of the support groups on this.

 

 

"Members of local walking and running groups have raised concerns that the likelihood of encountering shotguns causes them alarm and distress."

Such a blatant engineering of a complaint to suit their purposes - to use the very key words associated with the discharge of a firearm near a highway.

 

I can't stand this weak, mealy mouthed, cowardly world we've come to live in where people will distort facts, lie and claim that black is white just so they can enforce their will on the rest of us. Using tactics like these just illustrates that they don't have a well though out valid argument to start with.

[brett1985]

Just received this from CA:

 

On Tuesday Gerald Jones, the Labour MP for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, secured a one hour Westminster Hall debate on 'usage of lead shot in ammunition'. Even the title of this discussion was odd in that it seemed to exclude discussion of lead bullets, but given that Mr Jones had never previously shown any interest in shooting it may just have been a misunderstanding.

He read out his opening statement from a script which sounded remarkably similar to the public statements made by the RSPB and Wildfowl and Wetlands trust. Indeed it was noticeable that there were more staff from those organisations in attendance than the three MPs (including Mr Jones) who were willing to argue for further restrictions on lead ammunition. As I have said before it is very sad that two organisations that do so much brilliant conservation work give such priority to a campaign which, is at least in part, clearly motivated by an antipathy to shooting as a whole.

A number of MPs, led by our own Chairman Simon Hart argued forcibly that there was no justification for a ban on lead ammunition. Simon declared an unusual interest in the debate by stating the fact that he was “probably the only Member who has been shot by a lead cartridge… It was about 35 years ago and I still carry 20 lead pellets in my left knee"' he added that "colleagues will judge whether that has affected my physical or mental state.”

Charles Walker MP stated that “tungsten, bismuth and hevi-shot cost five to seven times as much as lead. A significant part of most people’s shooting budget.”

Jim Shannon MP brought his experience shooting and wildfowling in Northern Ireland to the debate arguing that attempts to ban lead ammunition are “unjust and unfair and highlight the way in which science can be used and manipulated to suit a political agenda”.

Rishi Sunak MP and Geoffrey Clifton-Brown MP argued that evidence on the impact of lead ammunition in the UK has failed to pass rigorous academic scrutiny and the risks have been exaggerated. They also stated that a ban on lead would have serious implications for the gun trade, the rural economy and the natural environment

Alex Cunningham MP, a shadow Defra Minister, was forced to concede that there was no evidence in the UK of any premature death caused by lead ammunition which prompted Simon Hart to suggest that “unless he [Cunningham] can come up with that evidence, he is doing nothing more than mischief making”.

George Eustice MP responded for the Government and stated that since half of the Lead Ammunition Group members had resigned “we are therefore in a position in which we have no expert consensus about the impact of lead ammunition on wildlife or human health”, but did acknowledge that current compliance levels with existing legislation were disappointing.

This is not a matter of debate and is something that all speakers agreed on. Adherence with the current restrictions for shooting wildfowl and shooting over wetlands is non-negotiable. Using lead shot in contradiction of the regulations is not only environmentally damaging, but also risks the future use of lead ammunition for all shooting. None of us should think that it is acceptable either personally, or from those who we shoot with.

Tim Bonner
Chief Executive
Follow on Twitter @CA_TimB

[The_Engineer]

Good press releases from CA and BASC. I hope a national paper picks them up and runs them.

[David BASC]

All our press releases are sent to the shooting press and the national press

[Gee.]

Gerald Jones is one of my local Labour MP's and I will not be voting for him or any member of the Labour party in light of their recent actions towards shooters. Namely Catherine Stithlers attitude in the EU meeting on Monday, Derek Vaughan MEP for his ****ty reply to my email questioning him about the EU ban and their anti-gun party leader....king f-wit Jeremy Corbin.

 

Heres a link to the video of the lead debate.......good to see all the other MP's ripping his argument to bits.

 

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parliamentlive.tv%2FEvent%2FIndex%2Fa356a26a-8f5c-4fe9-a65f-eb64b87b5ee4&h=TAQH2NaAD

Edited December 11, 2015 by Gee.

[Scully]

Good press releases from CA and BASC. I hope a national paper picks them up and runs them.

Are they press releases or just website statements?

 

All our press releases are sent to the shooting press and the national press

So I'll ask again, which nationals can I see them in?

[Whitebridges]

Gerald Jones is one of my local Labour MP's and I will not be voting for him or any member of the Labour party in light of their recent actions towards shooters. Namely Catherine Stithlers attitude in the EU meeting on Monday, Derek Vaughan MEP for his ****ty reply to my email questioning him about the EU ban and their anti-gun party leader....king f-wit Jeremy Corbin.

 

Heres a link to the video of the lead debate.......good to see all the other MP's ripping his argument to bits.

 

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parliamentlive.tv%2FEvent%2FIndex%2Fa356a26a-8f5c-4fe9-a65f-eb64b87b5ee4&h=TAQH2NaAD

 

Good man Gee. You look like you're made of the proper stuff Sir.

[David BASC]

Scully, it may surprise you that there seems to be little public interest in this issue, if there was then the papers and broadcast media would still be covering it. Indeed, you may know there was a debate in parliament this week about lead shot, all be it a Westminster Hall debate, and that did not make the news at all. it was fortunate for the WWT et al that when this news 'broke' it was a light news day,relatively speaking, otherwise I suspect it would not have surfaced on the BBC at all.

 

To be honest that nationals have way more to cover then this issue, take a look at any paper you like to see the type of story's they cover..sadly many things seem unrepresented, take my other passion, fishing...

 

Anyway, you are always keen to go on about BASC and what we are doing,but for balance why not post up here what your chosen organisation is doing this issue

 

David

[rbrowning2]

Gerald Jones is one of my local Labour MP's and I will not be voting for him or any member of the Labour party in light of their recent actions towards shooters. Namely Catherine Stithlers attitude in the EU meeting on Monday, Derek Vaughan MEP for his ****ty reply to my email questioning him about the EU ban and their anti-gun party leader....king f-wit Jeremy Corbin.

 

Heres a link to the video of the lead debate.......good to see all the other MP's ripping his argument to bits.

 

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parliamentlive.tv%2FEvent%2FIndex%2Fa356a26a-8f5c-4fe9-a65f-eb64b87b5ee4&h=TAQH2NaAD

Link does not work.

 

The future of shooting in this country is currently under more threat, be it banning lead or the EU proposals to ban certain guns, then it has been for many years. If all these do-gooders win then the consequence are very bleak indeed.

[sitsinhedges]

Link does not work.

 

The future of shooting in this country is currently under more threat, be it banning lead or the EU proposals to ban certain guns, then it has been for many years. If all these do-gooders win then the consequence are very bleak indeed.

 

 

Does this? http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/a356a26a-8f5c-4fe9-a65f-eb64b87b5ee4 Very interesting watch, it's good to know folk are fighting our corner.

[Scully]

Scully, it may surprise you that there seems to be little public interest in this issue, if there was then the papers and broadcast media would still be covering it. No. it doesn't surprise me at all David, but you stated that a press release had been sent to the national press; it is meaningless unless they use it. Are BASC, through their media centre, insisting the BBC print an update on the article to the extent that the information they publicised on a nationwide scale is deliberately faulty, in an attempt to influence legislation affecting legitimate shooters?

Indeed, you may know there was a debate in parliament this week about lead shot, all be it a Westminster Hall debate, and that did not make the news at all. So who's fault was that?

it was fortunate for the WWT et al that when this news 'broke' it was a light news day,relatively speaking, otherwise I suspect it would not have surfaced on the BBC at all. ​Well I'll just have to take your word that it was a 'light news day', but despite your suspicions, those who oppose us yet again scored a coup on our nations biggest media corporation, the BBC. As this information has now been shown to be at the very least, exaggerated, I have seen nothing at all stating this to the same extent anywhere on a national level. What happens in, and what is the purpose of the BASC media centre I contributed to for so long if not to put across the 'voice of shooting'?

 

To be honest that nationals have way more to cover then this issue, take a look at any paper you like to see the type of story's they cover..sadly many things seem unrepresented, take my other passion, fishing...​I believe the lead shot issue pertinent to its effects on fishing WAS covered in and by national media many years ago, but I may be wrong.

 

Anyway, you are always keen to go on about BASC and what we are doing, Quite the contrary; it is you who are always keen to go on about BASC and what they are doing; I am always keen to go on about BASC and what they're NOT doing. but for balance why not post up here what your chosen organisation is doing this issue ​Well they don't have as much of a 'voice' on this issue as some organisations claim to have, nor do they claim to have, but they played a part in this recently :

http://www.nationalgamekeepers.org.uk/news/fairness-in-wild-bird-licensing-as-keeper-wins-landmark-legal-battle Not bad for a small organisation with a fraction of BASC's funding and no full time staff, about whom J. Swift said when a group of disillusioned 'keepers left BASC to form their own organisation 'You wont last six months'.

​It's nothing personal David, but it is going to take something extraordinary for my faith in BASC to be restored.

 

[mick miller]

Watching that video linked to earlier simply confirms in my mind that if you vote Labour or SNP you do shooting and the countryside a massive disservice.

[rbrowning2]

Does this? http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/a356a26a-8f5c-4fe9-a65f-eb64b87b5ee4 Very interesting watch, it's good to know folk are fighting our corner.

Sitisinhedges, thank you for posting the link, every shooting organisation in the uk should post the link on their website and every shooter in the uk should view the video.

 

It is clear that anybody who uses lead shot when the law states only non-toxic should be used is helping the lead shot ban cause and the current law should be in forced and anybody proven guilty should have their gun licence taken away. Then compliance with the law may be achieved.

[poontang]

 

 

Does this? http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/a356a26a-8f5c-4fe9-a65f-eb64b87b5ee4 Very interesting watch, it's good to know folk are fighting our corner.

 

Interesting video.

 

Nice to see Mr Swift there. I wonder which side he was backing?

[Scully]

 

Interesting video.

 

Nice to see Mr Swift there. I wonder which side he was backing?

 

Yep. '...the science and the politics are clear.' The science is anything but; the politics very much so.

Very interesting video. I find it incredible how those who have a point to make, still persist on making it even when the evidence they have referred to in making it is clearly pointed out to be flawed, inconclusive and in some cases exaggerated.

I spotted the double agent Swift in the background....how I detest that man, but I sincerely hope he enjoys an apparently lead laced beer or two, or three, with his subsidised lunch.

Thanks for posting the link sitsinhedges.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Scully

[David BASC]

Its important to be able to brief MP's on these issues and the value of that was seen clearly in the Westminster Hall debate, and by the way our political team are housed within the BASC media center

 

I belive the WWT press story is now completely dead in the water so no need to do anything to try and breath life into it

[panoma1]

Interesting video.

 

Nice to see Mr Swift there. I wonder which side he was backing?

 

I was a little surprised to notice current BASC employee Christopher Graffius was sitting close to Swift, if that were me I wouldn't sit anywhere near the treacherous turncoat!

[Scully]

Its important to be able to brief MP's on these issues and the value of that was seen clearly in the Westminster Hall debate, and by the way our political team are housed within the BASC media center

​Jolly good. It was nice to see Simon Hart, ex CA, putting across our point. It has to be said, those who did put across the shooters point, put it across very very well indeed and most convincingly so. I was impressed.

​It was also interesting to see the bloke who spoke last, who was trying to make the case for a ban, when asked if he knew of any cases of death linked to eating lead shot game, inferring that the risk of eating lead shot game was cumulative, akin to the risk posed for a long term smoker, when there is clearly no evidence of this whatsoever. Simon Hart was succinct in pointing out that the case based on risks to human health was nothing more than 'mischief making'.

 

I belive the WWT press story is now completely dead in the water so no need to do anything to try and breath life into it

Well that remains to be seen. I thought the 'evidence' as concocted by the WWT was also dead in the water, but it was most successfully resurrected the other week.

[McSpredder]

I belive the WWT press story is now completely dead in the water...

Maybe dead at Westminster, but is it liable to be aired again quite soon in Holyrood, Cardiff and Belfast? Elections are not far away in those places, every wannabe politician will be spouting forth, and every journalist will out there be looking for headline.