Newbie reloader question(s)

[Alpha Mule]

I'm using cases that have only ever been fired in my rifle, once each.

I've found that some of the bullets drop straight into the case, while others go in as expected.

 

I've also had some that I've decided that I want to re-do (see previous post about spillage of powder), but even using one of those hammer style de-headers, cannot get the bullets back out, on SOME of them.

So far I'm using My Hornady cases only.

Why would some be tight as a duck's bum and others as slack as a slack thing's knickers?

 

I have a selection of Hornady, Federals, Norma, Winchester and prvi are any more reliable than others?

 

How many times can they realistically be re-used?

[Bewsher500]

don't mix cases

their volumes can vary wildly

chose one, stick to it (norma, Fed, Win, Privi, hornady in that order IMO!)

 

how are you resizing them? FL? which make of die?

some cases harden faster than others and the resultant neck tension can be weak even when resized

some brands have thicker necks and with a bushing die will produce higher neck tension

 

 

I am guessing its a 22 centre fire

lighter bullets are worse to pull with a kinetic puller

they will come out though

put a foam earplug in the bottom of the hammer, will save the bullets from getting dinged

use a sledgehammer head as the anvil that you hit the hammer on, keep a loose grip and let the hammer ricochet off the thing you are hitting

often takes 3-4 good hits to dislodge a 222

[mick miller]

Stop the hammer when you strike, don't let the head bounce. The bullet is dislodged by the sudden abrupt halt in forward momentum.

 

As for the cases, we need more details on calibre but for rifle brass choice Hornady would be my last resort.

[Bewsher500]

Stop the hammer when you strike, don't let the head bounce. The bullet is dislodged by the sudden abrupt halt in forward momentum.

 

 

 

 

I find the loose grip rebound much more effective personally

[Savhmr]

Same here. Loose grip, hammer bounces and additional force is applied to de-seat bullet than just stopping. (Bullet has inertia moving downwards and hammer bounces back increasing the effective inertia of the bullet which want's to carry on down due to inertia).

 

To the OP: Sounds almost like your cases haven't been sized as you don't seem to have the required neck tension.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Savhmr

[Redgum]

When you set up your full size or neck sizing dies use that setting for one type of case make, incorrect neck dia will not be a case problem but the operator. If you having problems with setting up your dies and don't have relevant literature then look up on youtube, loads of tutorials.

 

If you don't go mentally hot then your cases will last well over 5 reloads, some of my 243 brass have gone well over ten reloads.

[Alpha Mule]

Replies in no particular order:

I'm not refuting what you guys say, but my frustration is getting the better of me?

 

I have tried hitting it very hard onto a substantial block of wood. Hard enough to make it substantially dented.

 

I have tried letting it bounce and stopping it. My hand now aches, so much so that I have put some foam pipe insulation on th ehandle to save my palm.

 

There was a little rubber plug inside to save the head, but it moved and was lost. I'll replace with an ear plug.

 

I don't have any necking kit.

 

The caliber is .22-250

 

I though that as the fire forming was in my rifle, they wouldn't need to be sized.

 

I have some brass that is from other manufacturers and will try that.

[snow white]

Thats what resizing the dies are for full lenght or neck die

[steve_b_wales]

Replies in no particular order:

I'm not refuting what you guys say, but my frustration is getting the better of me?

 

I have tried hitting it very hard onto a substantial block of wood. Hard enough to make it substantially dented.

 

I have tried letting it bounce and stopping it. My hand now aches, so much so that I have put some foam pipe insulation on th ehandle to save my palm.

 

There was a little rubber plug inside to save the head, but it moved and was lost. I'll replace with an ear plug.

 

I don't have any necking kit.

 

The caliber is .22-250

 

I though that as the fire forming was in my rifle, they wouldn't need to be sized.

 

I have some brass that is from other manufacturers and will try that.

Hit the Kinetic hammer on a stone floor.

 

I also use a Hornady bullet puller if I need to do a few. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hornady-50095-Cam-Lock-Bullet-Puller/dp/B000PCZZO4/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1461435273&sr=8-4&keywords=bullet+puller

[Benthejockey]

I use a lee loader where you hammer the case into the die and it neck sizes the case. I did something different the other day which I forget and I ended up with a bullet inside the case. I went back and re did everything to the letter following the lee instructions and it was perfect. If in doubt start again and follow the instructions. 👍🏼

[Dougy]

Scrap all your brass, buy 100 remmington case's, full length resize all before you go any further. Then start your reloading again. It's no good having a mish mash of different bits.

When you reload your after consistency, your after clones of loaded rounds, it's not going to happen if your mixing all sorts of components.

 

 

Can't you find some nearby to help you out. ?

Edited April 23, 2016 by Dougy

[kent]

To be honest and a little blunt.

 

For your own safety and sanity seek hands on guidance or read books on the subject till you fully understand the process

 

You can't load without re- sizing it's that straight forward. What worries me is this pastime can easily kill or blind you at the very least you risk ruining your rifle. I don't know the other stuff your likely going to do so Stop!

 

I have seen guns blown up and I never want to be the one with my head inches from bits of it moving at great speed

[Alpha Mule]

Eh, it's not a mishmash

The cases in question were all Hornady, from the same batch

The primers all came from the same box

The powder came from the same tub

The bullets came from the same box

I used the same scales and put the same amount in every time.

Why scrap brass that others are perfectly happy to (re)use?

On some there was a slight spillage, so I put them aside and asked for advice from those willing to help.

 

I have read many posts from here and elsewhere where folks are starting out, or don't get through large amounts, and several don't even mention re-sizing.

 

I'm using the Lee loader. But regarding the item in question I could just drop the bullet into the case, without any pressure, never mind hammering it in (as I have done in all the others). I suspect it was just this case and will be wary in future.

If re-sizing is essential, then I'll deal with it, but as I say, I don't believe everyone does re-size.

[Dougy]

Alpha just trying to help,

Different bits are referring to mixing brass. If you were closer I would help as much as I could. Its a tad worrying that you had not resized the brass, it just made me wonder, and probably many others, has this chap any experience.

 

You must resize once fired cases or the neck will not hold the bullets. Its quite simple to understand why, and that was another concern.

 

Again just trying to help so please done be offended.

[kent]

Alfa

Sorry but your dead wrong about sizing and I am trying hard to believe this is not a joke

But listen reloading without correct knowledge or understanding is highly dangerous. With a fair understanding it's fine as life can ever be

 

I have personally been reloading quite a fair old number of years and I am sure if you need it there are others like me local to you who might spend an hour or two showing you the ropes

[Alpha Mule]

Dougy, sorry for snapping. Previous baggage from others also providing advice - not you though.

I have no experience and am a complete newbie to reloading.

I have about 300 cases, most of which are Hornady. My rifle seems to like anything I put through it, and Hornady kills foxes as well as the Normas, Winnies, Feds or Prvi.

I've tried a box or so of each to see if one is any better than the others, but any difference is probably me. They are all within minute of fox at the ranges I'm shooting at (100 - 150m). I'm currently zeroed at 208m - so 1" high at 80m - 1.5" high at 130m. I get the vast majority within a 2" circle at 150m (all the factory bought ones).

I appreciate this is not as good as some others, but they do the trick and I haven't needed more than 1 follow-up shot for ~40 fox.

 

I'm looking for greater accuracy with my home-loads. I didn't appreciate that re-sizing is essential as not everyone seems to do it. I've only made up 20 to date and only 1 was slack enough to allow the bullet to drop straight in. I've also found that trying to extract some of the bullets has been a nightmare, while others cooperate well.

 

 

Edit:

Just re-consulted some videos and text and the Lee Loader does state that it resizes.

So I don't really need any other kit to resize. I'm following the instructions to the letter. Literally line by line.

 

Hmmm,,,,,,

Edited April 24, 2016 by Alpha Mule

[mick miller]

I've never used the Lee Loader, so have zero experience of it. I opted to start by using a single stage press (a Lee Breech Lock) and a set of FL sizing and bullet seating dies.

 

Whilst I'm sure the Lee Loader does an admirable job I can't help think that you may achieve better consistency and ease of use just opting to buy a reasonably priced single stage press and die set. In time that would give you the option to full-length size, shoulder bump or simply neck size your brass. If space is an issue (we don't all have oodles of space or a separate, dedicated reloading room available) you can simply mount the press to a modified and cheap workmate.

 

Like this:

 

I can fold this up and store it in the cupboard under the stairs which means the kitchen becomes my temporary reloading room when I need it.

 

As for brass, I never found Hornady brass to be my favourite. Lapua, Norma, RWS, Winchester in that order are my preferences, with Winchester winning out on cost. Hopefully, someone with more experience of the Lee Loader can jump on and lend some advic, I know Colin Lad on here uses one to great effect.

 

[1066]

Edit:

Just re-consulted some videos and text and the Lee Loader does state that it resizes.

So I don't really need any other kit to resize. I'm following the instructions to the letter. Literally line by line.

 

Hmmm,,,,,,

The way the Lee loader works is that when you tap the fired case into the loader you are squeezing the neck down. That's fine but the grip on the bullet (neck tension) will vary depending on how thick the brass is and the diameter of your bullet. The thickness of the brass will vary depending on the quality and, to a certain extent, how many times it's been fired.

 

It doesn't necessary follow that the most expensive brass is the thickest but cheap brass is often thin - ex military brass sometimes thick.

 

With your cases, where you are getting variable neck tension, it could well be you have brass of variable thickness and possible bullets of variable diameter. All components have a +/- tolerance, the higher quality of the components the less tolerance.

 

 

This problem doesn't show up if you are using a standard press and dies, they work in a different way.

 

With a normal die, when you push the case into the die, it's squeezed down a little more than is needed. When you pull the case out of the die, the expander ball opens the case back up to the required diameter. (bullet diameter minus about 2-3 thousandths of an inch.

 

Note the difference - The Lee loader sizes on the outside of the case - thin brass will give little or no bullet grip, thick brass will give excessive bullet grip.

 

A conventional die sizes from the inside - to bullet diameter less .002"

 

The Lee loader can work exceptionally well but you do need to select your components to make it work well.

Edited April 24, 2016 by 1066

[Bewsher500]

Just to be clear

 

Now I have read all of it, the OP is sizing his brass - Neck sizing

He is correct you don't HAVE to FULL LENGTH SIZE

 

i reloaded for almost two years without FL sizing any brass using just the lee loader

 

Neck tension however is not just down to neck thickness when outside neck sizing.

You could size the brass down to bullet calibre - 004" if you wanted. wouldn't make any difference to actual tension

The action of seating a bullet will automatically resize the neck to approximately 1/2-1 thou less that the bullet diameter (when you pull a .243 calibre bullet from a neck sized case the internal bore of the neck will measure anywhere between .2415 and .2425)

 

The real component of neck tension is the elasticity of the brass (hence the need to anneal work hardened brass)

 

Some cases however can have very thin necks which as described above will give weak neck tension.

This can be overcome by using the Lee Loaders built in roll over crimp feature (or a better idea is bin the ones that don't produce neck tension)

 

if you want better accuracy (you actually mean precision when talking about reducing group size) you will need to play around with charge levels in suitably small increments to find the (likely) two "accuracy nodes".

In my experience these are usually at a moderate charge level and one quite high up the powder makers data range.

Do this with the bullet seated to book OAL or AT LEAST A CALIBRE DEPTH...i.e. at least .224" into the neck

 

once you choose one (and you don't get any prizes for choosing the hotter option) try altering the seating depth

deeper and shallower

 

I have yet to find a factory rifle that demands the bullet is jammed into the rifling to get it to shoot better than most people can shoot

 

You should be able to get that 2" at 150yds down to an inch

How do your groups compare with factory ammo?

[Alpha Mule]

The way the Lee loader works is that when you tap the fired case into the loader you are squeezing the neck down. That's fine but the grip on the bullet (neck tension) will vary depending on how thick the brass is and the diameter of your bullet. The thickness of the brass will vary depending on the quality and, to a certain extent, how many times it's been fired.

 

It doesn't necessary follow that the most expensive brass is the thickest but cheap brass is often thin - ex military brass sometimes thick.

 

With your cases, where you are getting variable neck tension, it could well be you have brass of variable thickness and possible bullets of variable diameter. All components have a +/- tolerance, the higher quality of the components the less tolerance.

 

 

This problem doesn't show up if you are using a standard press and dies, they work in a different way.

 

With a normal die, when you push the case into the die, it's squeezed down a little more than is needed. When you pull the case out of the die, the expander ball opens the case back up to the required diameter. (bullet diameter minus about 2-3 thousandths of an inch.

 

Note the difference - The Lee loader sizes on the outside of the case - thin brass will give little or no bullet grip, thick brass will give excessive bullet grip.

 

A conventional die sizes from the inside - to bullet diameter less .002"

 

The Lee loader can work exceptionally well but you do need to select your components to make it work well.

 

 

Just to be clear

 

Now I have read all of it, the OP is sizing his brass - Neck sizing

He is correct you don't HAVE to FULL LENGTH SIZE

 

i reloaded for almost two years without FL sizing any brass using just the lee loader

 

Neck tension however is not just down to neck thickness when outside neck sizing.

You could size the brass down to bullet calibre - 004" if you wanted. wouldn't make any difference to actual tension

The action of seating a bullet will automatically resize the neck to approximately 1/2-1 thou less that the bullet diameter (when you pull a .243 calibre bullet from a neck sized case the internal bore of the neck will measure anywhere between .2415 and .2425)

 

The real component of neck tension is the elasticity of the brass (hence the need to anneal work hardened brass)

 

Some cases however can have very thin necks which as described above will give weak neck tension.

This can be overcome by using the Lee Loaders built in roll over crimp feature (or a better idea is bin the ones that don't produce neck tension)

 

if you want better accuracy (you actually mean precision when talking about reducing group size) you will need to play around with charge levels in suitably small increments to find the (likely) two "accuracy nodes".

In my experience these are usually at a moderate charge level and one quite high up the powder makers data range.

Do this with the bullet seated to book OAL or AT LEAST A CALIBRE DEPTH...i.e. at least .224" into the neck

 

once you choose one (and you don't get any prizes for choosing the hotter option) try altering the seating depth

deeper and shallower

 

I have yet to find a factory rifle that demands the bullet is jammed into the rifling to get it to shoot better than most people can shoot

 

You should be able to get that 2" at 150yds down to an inch

How do your groups compare with factory ammo?

 

 

Both acknowledged and appreciated.

I'll put the Hornady to one side and run with the other brands, but only one brand at a time. I may even invest in some new brass.

My idea was that I could re-use my existing brass and save some dosh.

If I have to spend more to self load for that 1" group, when a 2" group does the job,,,

I do enjoy this sort of stuff and like to think I can do a decent job of it. I'm a perfectionist, but also financially challenged. Before I tried this, I have read what I could find on line and watched loads (excuse the pun). As everyone says, you have to find which your own rifle prefers, so finding anything that is a definite best/good start point is hard to come by..As I have come across a couple of things that caused me concern, I've asked here.

[1066]

Some of the very best ammunition you can make is made with Wilson hand dies. Although these are 10 times the price of the Lee loader they work just about the same - the only real difference is that you can change the amount of sizing by changing a separate bush.

 

http://www.brownells.co.uk/epages/UK.sf/en_GB/?ViewAction=FacetedSearchProducts&ObjectID=12314&PageSize=15&SearchString=wilson%20hand%20dies&Page=8&ICShowAllFacets=1

 

If you get the right balance of components/load there's no reason why you can't make excellent ammo with the Lee loaders.

 

Here's some in action:

[activeviii]

I used the Lee loader for a long time. In .222 it shot cloverleaf groups time and time again. Even won a club comp with it on tightest group.

 

 

All brass needs to be sized in one form or another. Wether it's full lenght or just neck sizing like the loader does. As long as your cases came from your rifle on their last firing you can get away with just using the Lee reloader but, if they have been elsewhere then you really do need to full length size.

 

Have a look on YouTube if you have no one close enough to show you or at least watch over you.

 

I bought a 223 from a lad that said he knew what he was doing and had been reloading for it. How he handing killed himself I will never know. I took all his reloads and pulled them. There was different podwres, different primers. No two weights were the same, even the odd different bullet. I had primers that he had tried to put into burden cases with some blown, some crushed and somenhe said wouldn't work and had the bullets, powder and firing pin dent.

Took me a while to work out why the shel holder was sootie and blackened but tow and two together and I found the next candidate for Darwin award.

 

I just hope he has not continued in his reloading quest as some that think they know what their doing prove otherwise